Why doesn’t God communicate directly to everyone?

[oldbadger]

Wow!

If I loved a faith with such dodgy backgrounds, I wouldn't challenge folks to show it.
Oh well.......

 

[oldbadger]

Sounds similar to what I get from Christians. "I know in my heart that Jesus is the truth." "The Bible is the truth." And when asked how they know they say, "Because the Bible says so."

How can you argue against that kind of "evidence".

The above was sent to another member.......
I don't mind some Christian Creeds explaining their faith to me, it's when I know what a particular religion's World is going to look like (terrifying) and I'm being sold a benign joy for an end result ...... it's then that I bite.

 

[ChristineM]

Sounds similar to what I get from Christians. "I know in my heart that Jesus is the truth." "The Bible is the truth." And when asked how they know they say, "Because the Bible says so."

How can you argue against that kind of "evidence".

By providing the definition of evidence and showing "circular argument", "guesswork" and "because i think so" do not meet the requirements of the definition.

Of course it rarely works but i can't learn for them

 

[CG Didymus]

I agree that the writers of the Bible were telling stories and that the Bible is stories about their God and how he dealt with them. I do not believe that God necessarily thought, felt, or did what is attributed to Him in the Bible. None of these writers had any direct communication form God, so how could they know these things? It is ludicrous to believe these things the Bible says about God. God is unknowable.

Baha'u'llah did receive direct communication from God and He did not say how God thinks, feels or what God does. Baha'u'llah only revealed God's Attributes and God's Will for this age.

I do not understand why the Bahai position is so difficult to understand. Here it is explained again. Maybe this will help:

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
(23 January 1944 to an individual believer)

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

Except for what has been explained by Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean.
(31 January 1955 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

So why is Christianity considered a real and truthful religion? If the Baha'is are correct, Christianity is a false teaching and the NT is not the "Word of God ", but the words of men that had mistakes and embellishments in it that led people to believe in false beliefs like there is a hell and Satan, that Jesus rose from the dead and is the only way to get your sins forgiven.

Why then aren't atheists justified in not believing in that God? And why does it fit into any religious progression of God's truth? It never had the truth and never taught the truth... If the Baha'is are right.

 

[CG Didymus]

I pretty much agree with all you said, these were just stories, but I do not necessarily think these were made up with an intent to convert. There really is no way to know why the writers of the NT wrote what they did.

To make Jesus bigger and better and the only way to gain salvation and eternal life?

 

[CG Didymus]

God allowed it because God does not override the free will decisions people make.
God is not our manager. God wants us to manage ourselves. Sometimes we mess up.

The early Christians misinterpreted the Bible and the Church created false doctrines, but we now have the Truth from Baha'u'llah, so it is the responsibility of everyone to turn towards it, once they know about it. It is not God's job to make them believe.

Before the Baha'i Faith, do you really think Islam had the truth? Then which sect? But before Islam, which religion had the truth? Judaism? The Orthodox Church? The Roman Church? Or none of them?

But then why would a Christian Church that had misconceptions, like Jesus is God and a belief in a Satan, abrogate Judaism? A Jew would have been foolish to follow the false beliefs of Christianity.

 

[CG Didymus]

...... and their police force just for policing Bahais?

So someone breaking a Baha'i law, the Baha'i cop asks, "Are you a Baha'i?"
The person says, "No." The cop says, "Okay, go ahead doing your evil deed. It is not our concern."

 

[CG Didymus]

............ So Bahai was never established in 1844.


Not many hours ago you challenged me to prove my previous posts............ which I did.
And now you tell us all that you knew all along?


What...... like 19 day months and fasting on the last month, and stuff like that...... all abrogated?
Or do you pick and choose and suit your debating situation, which honestly doesn't look too hot at this time. ...?


So they're just stored away in the legislature or writings for bringing to life whenever required?


Oh......... so the messenger of God for the new dispensation for this age wrote a load of laws, rules and guides which were and are total rhetoric?
Kind of ,'This is all direct from God, but it's not really intended to be serious.'.... ?


So you think that all the Aqdas and all Bahauallah's laws have been translated and made public knowledge in the West?

And all your critics are liars?

How many Baha'i prophesies depend on 1844?

 

[Sen McGlinn]

So someone breaking a Baha'i law, the Baha'i cop asks, "Are you a Baha'i?"
The person says, "No." The cop says, "Okay, go ahead doing your evil deed. It is not our concern."

Although there are Bahais working in police and security forces, they do so as citizens and enforce civil law. Bahai religious law doesn't provide for police to enforce its provisions. Religious law, at least in the Bahai case, is a way of saying what's right and wrong. It's ethics and morality, not crime & punishment.

 

[oldbadger]

I think the book is supposed to be followed as written.

Indeed...... swallowed hook, line and sinker.

 

[oldbadger]

How many Baha'i prophesies depend on 1844?

The lot.
All of them.
So it's a case of, 'That's us, but not of us!'

More Double Think.

 

[oldbadger]

Although there are Bahais working in police and security forces, they do so as citizens and enforce civil law.

I don't know about other countries, but in the UK our police do not act as citizens....... absolutely not. They all hold warrants and senior officers hold commissions.

 

[1213]

...the All-Knowing Physician, sends a new Messenger because humanity needs a new message.
...

I disagree with that, Bible message is the best and good, there is no need for new, because the new couldn’t be better.

But please explain, why you need new message? Why Bible message (love, even your enemies) is not good enough for you?

 

[Trailblazer]

I disagree with that, Bible message is the best and good, there is no need for new, because the new couldn’t be better.

How do you know that new could not be better? It might not be better, but it is more suitable to the new age we now live in. The spiritual verities in the Bible will always be true, but as time marches on humanity needs (a) a new message from God and (b) new social teachings and laws from God.

But please explain, why you need new message? Why Bible message (love, even your enemies) is not good enough for you?

How well has that worked, the message of love? Sure, it is the most important message but we need more than that in this new day, in this complex world we live in. Do you watch and of the news on TV?

The answer to why we need new message was in the passage I posted. Please note the part in bold. In short, what was revealed in the Bible is not the remedy that the world needs in this new age. We needed a new message from God because the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. In that new message is the remedy the world needs today, and for the next 1000 years or so, until another Messenger is sent by God with what we will need at that time.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

In case you have not noticed, many people are dropping out of Christianity and they are turning away from God. The religion of God needed to be renewed and brought back to life. That is another reason God sent a new Messenger.

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake.Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

Humans cannot restore man’s belief in God which has died. Even if people claim to adhere to a religion, most people only pay lip service to it.

Only God can restore belief by sending a new Messenger who administers God's new medicine and releases the Holy Spirit into the world. After that, the ball is in man’s court as to whether to accept or reject that Messenger and His medicine for mankind. But even if they reject it, the release of the Holy Spirit upon mankind will have its effect in due time.

“The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 200

 

[CG Didymus]

God allowed it because God does not override the free will decisions people make.
God is not our manager. God wants us to manage ourselves. Sometimes we mess up.

The early Christians misinterpreted the Bible and the Church created false doctrines, but we now have the Truth from Baha'u'llah, so it is the responsibility of everyone to turn towards it, once they know about it. It is not God's job to make them believe.

How can the average person know or trust who is telling them the truth about God? Christians say Jesus the only way to gain salvation for your sins and avoid going to hell... Suppose God's perfect judgement. All of that is based on the NT and selected parts of the Jewish Bible. It is proclaimed, with "proofs" to be the inerrant Word of God. Baha'is now, 2000 years later, say the Christians got it wrong.

Management and freewill? God supposedly said for people to listen to his son. His son is the manager. He didn't write a thing, but his followers wrote down everything people need to know what God, the big absentee manager in the sky, wants us to do... and that is do whatever Jesus said. And how "free" is our will if we choose to disobey what Jesus taught? Sure we can do whatever we want and then God will condemn us to hell... great. Doing our will is pretty costly.

But not only Baha'is are saying that all that stuff about salvation and hell is wrong, the Muslims are saying that also. And Baha'is say that Islam superseded Christianity. But which Islam? Sunni? Shia? Or some other? Or none of them, because they are wrong too? No, religion is a mess. Each does contradict the other. And some of us are not enthralled over the Baha'i Faith. We have questions and doubts, because too many things don't add up. Like this OP, God spoke to Adam and Eve. God spoke from the sky. Krishna, as an incarnation of God, spoke. God spoke to the prophets in the Jewish Scriptures. All wrong? Sure, I doubt it happened. But I don't claim that all these religions are true and from God. To claim that doesn't only make God a bad manager, but a horrible memo writer.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you repeatedly made the claim of evidence but you rather not anyone remind you that you made that claim, sorry, i didnt realise

Yes you have explained and have provided the definition of evidence and highlighted the areas where you have no evidence. You refuse to accept the definition or the facts but repeatedly show that having no evidence of god means their is evidence that mr prophet was his messenger,. The logic fails. End of story

As i have also shown you several times, your claims align with belief, not evidence.

The logic is perfect. The Messenger of God is the evidence that God exists. There is no other evidence except God's Creation.
There is no proof that God exists, only evidence. Therefore it is impossible to prove God exists before one believes in God based upon the evidence, which is the Messenger of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

Although there are Bahais working in police and security forces, they do so as citizens and enforce civil law. Bahai religious law doesn't provide for police to enforce its provisions. Religious law, at least in the Bahai case, is a way of saying what's right and wrong. It's ethics and morality, not crime & punishment.

Hey Sen, it good to hear from you. Old Badger and I are talking about a time in the future when, assuming the Baha'is are right, that most of the people of the world will become believers in the faith. If the majority of the people of the world are Baha'is, why would they want to let non-believers to run the governments and to have control of the armies and police forces in those countries?

But the other worry is if the Baha'is do have control of the government and the police and the military. Will they enforce Baha'i law on the world? Including those that aren't Baha'is? As an example would be sexual moral laws. What would a Baha'i world do with the gay community? Or, what about strip clubs and massage parlors? Or, what about the porn industry? What about alcoholic beverages? Would there manufacture and sales become outlawed? If the Baha'is don't take control, will all this continue? And Baha'is won't interfere?

 

[Trailblazer]

The above is way off the mark.
Apostasy in early 19th century Persia was very serious, let alone proclaiming and proselyting another religion. On top of that to advocate that Persian Muslims be turned out of their provinces, robbed and otherwise mistreated amounted to insurrection and high treachery. On top of that, to carry arms and be prepared to kill just about topped off the list of disgraces that accompanied the Bab and his followers.

Advocating something in writing is irrelevant because they never did what was in the writings. Did the Babis turn people out of their homes? Did the Babis rob and mistreat people? Did the Babis kill people with guns, other than in an effort to defend themselves from Muslim attacks? I think not.

What about the disgraceful behavior of the Muslims, slaughtering over 20,000 Babis? What about the Martyrdom of the Bab? What justified that?

As usual, you only look at one side of the issue, the side you want to see.

You aren't the first to appear as if shocked and slandered by by my descriptions, demanding proof of all, and then when confronted with such proof to explain 'Oh that....... that's not part of Bahai 1852, that's that Babi from before, Bahauallah abrogated this, and that......'. !!

What I am shocked by is the cruelty inflicted upon the Babis by some of the influential Muslims who joined forces with the clergy.
Chapter III: Upheavals in Mázindarán, Nayríz and Zanján

 

[Trailblazer]

So why is Christianity considered a real and truthful religion? If the Baha'is are correct, Christianity is a false teaching and the NT is not the "Word of God ", but the words of men that had mistakes and embellishments in it that led people to believe in false beliefs like there is a hell and Satan, that Jesus rose from the dead and is the only way to get your sins forgiven.

Christianity is a false teaching and the NT is not the actual "Word of God " but the NT nevertheless contains the eternal spiritual truths. Even though we cannot be sure that the NT is exactly what Jesus said, what did come through in the parables for example, is what Jesus taught. That is all that really matters, not the other stories such as of the resurrection.

Why then aren't atheists justified in not believing in that God? And why does it fit into any religious progression of God's truth? It never had the truth and never taught the truth... If the Baha'is are right.

The Bible is a Pandora's Box. There is truth in the Bible but it can be difficult to understand what it means and put it in context of all the other religions unless one has a Baha'i understanding. The Bible does fit into religious progression of God's truth.

The Heart of the Gospel is a book that was written by a Christian clergyman who resigned his orders after 40 years to become a Baha’i. It explains how the Bible fits into history.
I. The Bible as Universal History
II.History as Spiritual Evolution

I do not think that atheists are justified in not believing in God just because of the Bible has problems and Christianity is a false teaching. Time marches on and now we have a new Revelation from God. That is available to everyone so it is their choice to accept it or reject it.

 

[Trailblazer]

To make Jesus bigger and better and the only way to gain salvation and eternal life?

That might be the reason for the Gospel stories, but why they had to go about it that way is another question.
It is really the Christian Church that made Jesus bigger and better and as the only way to gain salvation, by interpreting the Bible as they did and creating the false doctrines. I tend to lay the blame there rather than on the gospel writers. We can never really know why they wrote what they did.