Why doesn’t God communicate directly to everyone?

[Trailblazer]

Well, the easiest explanation for me is that the writers of the Bible were telling stories... stories of legend and myth. Stories about their God and how he dealt with them. Obviously, there are problems for them that take it as the absolute, literal Word of God. I can see why some people think it is all make believe and made up by the religious leaders to keep the people in line. But the hardest position to believe for me is the Baha'i explanation... that it is somehow God's Word, but has errors and traditions that got mixed in. Plus, that many of the stories were meant to be taken symbolically, but the people mistakenly took them literal.

I agree that the writers of the Bible were telling stories and that the Bible is stories about their God and how he dealt with them. I do not believe that God necessarily thought, felt, or did what is attributed to Him in the Bible. None of these writers had any direct communication form God, so how could they know these things? It is ludicrous to believe these things the Bible says about God. God is unknowable.

Baha'u'llah did receive direct communication from God and He did not say how God thinks, feels or what God does. Baha'u'llah only revealed God's Attributes and God's Will for this age.

I do not understand why the Bahai position is so difficult to understand. Here it is explained again. Maybe this will help:

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
(23 January 1944 to an individual believer)

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

Except for what has been explained by Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean.
(31 January 1955 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that many Christians believe that the Holy Spirit dwells within them and speaks to their hearts. And, I believe that most Christians think that God can and did speak with an audible voice. I also believe that there is a good chance that many of the events like walking on water, dead people coming out of the graves and audible voices from heaven didn't happen, but were made up to embellish the story about Jesus. 'Cause without those things, how could the Christians impress the people they were trying to convert? Those people had god/men, resurrections, and virgin birth stories of their own. How do you compete with that unless your God/man is somehow greater and more powerful?

I pretty much agree with all you said, these were just stories, but I do not necessarily think these were made up with an intent to convert. There really is no way to know why the writers of the NT wrote what they did.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, if the Baha'is are right, God allowed a false message to become the Truth for millions of Christians. Not very good management.

God allowed it because God does not override the free will decisions people make.
God is not our manager. God wants us to manage ourselves. Sometimes we mess up.

The early Christians misinterpreted the Bible and the Church created false doctrines, but we now have the Truth from Baha'u'llah, so it is the responsibility of everyone to turn towards it, once they know about it. It is not God's job to make them believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you think so? Because you like it more?

No, because it is the most current Revelation from God.

God does not send a new Messenger just because He got bored one day. God, the All-Knowing Physician, sends a new Messenger because humanity needs a new message. Humanity desperately needed a new message by the time Baha'u'llah showed up in the mid 19th century, and humanity is still in dire need of that message.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

 

[Trailblazer]

My Quote: God does not communicate with me or any other human being, so God cannot tell me anything.
Your answer: This is not true. You limit only yourself with this thinking.

I do not limit myself. God limits me by barring access.

My quote: Of course the Messenger told me.
Your answer: Then you limit your entire view to the will of this messenger including the weaknesses and the limited knowledge that the messenger has. How much do you miss with such a narrow view? How much do you never see when you value Beliefs over Total Truth and knowledge. Will your belief Blind you to so much that exists around you? The First thing that God showed me was that mankind carries such a narrow view. Will you choose this to be you?

God does not show people anything except through His Messenger. So how much do you think you miss when you reject that Messenger and His message?

My belief does not Blind me to anything. It opens my eyes to the Truth about God.

Where do you think that you get Total Truth and knowledge? Please answer that question.

The Messenger of God is not weak or limited in knowledge. He has God’s knowledge, which is all knowledge, even though He does not reveal that knowledge to humanity all at once, since we do not need all of it and we are not capable of understanding it all at one time.

“Oh, would that the world could believe Me! Were all the things that lie enshrined within the heart of Bahá, and which the Lord, His God, the Lord of all names, hath taught Him, to be unveiled to mankind, every man on earth would be dumbfounded.

How great the multitude of truths which the garment of words can never contain! How vast the number of such verities as no expression can adequately describe, whose significance can never be unfolded, and to which not even the remotest allusions can be made! How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the appointed time is come! Even as it hath been said: “Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 176

My Quote:Why do so many people have a problem with Messengers of God?
Your Answer: Everybody wants to rule the world. One of the petty things mankind holds so dear is to Control others. God's system has been working since before religion existed without specific middle men from God. It will continue to work long after religion becomes obsolete.

Messengers of God do not come to control or rule others. That is utterly ludicrous. They come only to teach humanity the Truth as it is revealed to them by God. Messengers of God have been sent from the dawn of human history and religion has thus always existed. It did not start to exist when the Bible was written. Religion will never become obsolete. Messengers will continue to be sent throughout all of eternity. God’s guidance and grace comes to us through His Messengers, whether you realize it or not.

“Can one of sane mind ever seriously imagine that, in view of certain words the meaning of which he cannot comprehend, the portal of God’s infinite guidance can ever be closed in the face of men? Can he ever conceive for these Divine Luminaries, these resplendent Lights either a beginning or an end? What outpouring flood can compare with the stream of His all-embracing grace, and what blessing can excel the evidences of so great and pervasive a mercy? There can be no doubt whatever that if for one moment the tide of His mercy and grace were to be withheld from the world, it would completely perish. For this reason, from the beginning that hath no beginning the portals of Divine mercy have been flung open to the face of all created things, and the clouds of Truth will continue to the end that hath no end to rain on the soil of human capacity, reality and personality their favors and bounties. Such hath been God’s method continued from everlasting to everlasting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 68-69

My Quote: I am guided by the teachings of the Messenger because I know they are the truth.
Your Answer: At one time the truth was that the smallest part of an element was an atom. It was later discovered this was not the Real Truth. Truth must always be questioned especially when it comes through Beliefs. Do you question or do you accept? How much is missed when one settles for beliefs being the truth without doing what it takes to Discover the facts, regardless if we like the facts or not. One must always be open for the truth that exist that one does not agree with.

Of course I questioned my beliefs before accepting them as Truth.

What Facts are you talking about, scientific facts? I do not deny any Facts. Why does Belief have to conflict with the Facts? One must always be open for the truth that exists that one does not agree with. Are you open to the possibility that the Messenger of God brings a message from God that is the Truth from God for this age?

My quote: God is All-Knowing and All-Wise.
Your Answer: If God is all-Knowing and All-Wise why does God need messengers, middlemen, and books? HE DOESN'T. God's system works regardless and does not depend on Anyone. There is Intelligence far beyond mankind's ideas or ruling and controlling the actions of others regardless of their means.

Simply put, God needs Messengers to bring His messages to humanity. God does not reveal His Essence because God is above anything that can ever be recounted or perceived. Instead, God manifests Himself in the Person of His Messenger who has all of God Attributes and reveals God’s Will for every age of history.

God’s System IS the Messengers. It depends upon the Messengers. That is the only way God communicates to humanity. There is Intelligence far beyond mankind's ideas but no human has access to that Intelligence. Only God has access to that.

My quote: Anything we think we know is also subject to our ego, and that leads people away from God’s Truth.
Your Answer: I could not have said it better. This is especially true when one bases truth on mere beliefs. The Ego gets in the way of so much learning.

It is the opposite of that really. The reason people turn away from the Messenger of God is because of their Ego, since they refuse to accept the Fact that someone has more knowledge than they have.

My quote: “I merely place truth upon your door.” How do you think you know what the truth is?
Your Answer: The Truth Stares you in the face. Go back and read what I said about God. Can't you tell? I have had that conversation with God that you said no one could have. Did I describe it well enough?

You have had no conversation with God. You just imagine that. Nobody has a conversation with God except God’s Messengers. What, do you think you are a Prophet?

Finally, if you go by your definition, that would make me a messenger. How do I compare with your other messengers? I don't attempt to control your actions. I don't use God as a threat to alter your actions. I merely point you in a direction by which you can Discover the Truth for yourself. The rest is up to you. How about those other messengers?

No, you are not a Messenger because you got no message from God.

The Messengers of God do not attempt to control our actions and they do not use God as a threat to alter our actions. They merely reveal teachings that guide us and help us live a better life and discover the Truth for ourselves. How are you able to do that? Do you have teachings written in a book or is your message simply that everyone has to do their own thing and discover the Truth for themselves? Logically speaking, can’t you see how that would be problematic? What one person thinks is Truth could be completely wrong. What if my Truth was that all black people are inferior to whites, that women are inferior to men?

Your journey has never ever been up to me. All I will tell you is to Be who you must! It's a part of the plan! Listen to the advice of others but make your own choices. Life's lessons are best learned that way.

I have no disagreement with that. I listen to others but I make my own choices.

You have all my Love and Kindness!!

Thanks... you have mine too.

 

[Chris Lovel]

On another forum I said: “One reason God does not communicate to everyone is because everyone does not deserve to know that God exists.” I said that people have to be willing to sincerely search for God using their own innate powers of reasoning in order to be worthy of knowing God exists, rather than just sitting back and doing nothing, waiting for God to communicate to them.

Then this one atheist said that was a lame-*** excuse and he says it is just common sense that God should communicate directly to everyone.

This is what he has been saying to me for over three years. Everyone (all of the 7.4 billion people in the world) should get direct communication from God. God should not use Messengers because not everyone believes in them, especially in the beginning, when they first show up on earth.

What do you think; does everyone on earth deserve direct communication from God or should people be required to search for God themselves?

A most interesting post and question. To answer one really needs to know the nature of the Divine. Unfortunately most religious people have been conditioned (brainwashed) from an early age to believe that God is just like man. You don't think so? Let us look at the evidence: God is a "He", male, that is absurd, in order to me male of female you have to be human or an animal. Religions have endowed their "God" with human emotions, like anger, vengeance, jealousy etc and human traits like murder, cruelty, violence, punishment, instilling fear, sound familiar? They have also endowed it with an ego requiring our praise and adoration, just like a narcissist. They even kneel and place their head on the ground. A human God would like that just like the Pharos and Caesars. Now why would a supposedly omnipotent being have these emotions and traits. We are talking about the Universe here, all those billions of stars and planets, we are so insignificant. I do believe the ancient priests and clerics decided that if God was presented in the image of man people would be more able to relate. So, it's all a scam, so sad. Now, if you want to know the true nature of the Divine go research those who have come face to face with it. Google Near Death Experience and visit IANDS.org, NDERF.org and IONS.org, all scientific web site with real Scientists doing real research, good luck

 

[Chris Lovel]

A most interesting post and question. To answer one really needs to know the nature of the Divine. Unfortunately most religious people have been conditioned (brainwashed) from an early age to believe that God is just like man. You don't think so? Let us look at the evidence: God is a "He", male, that is absurd, in order to me male of female you have to be human or an animal. Religions have endowed their "God" with human emotions, like anger, vengeance, jealousy etc and human traits like murder, cruelty, violence, punishment, instilling fear, sound familiar? They have also endowed it with an ego requiring our praise and adoration, just like a narcissist. They even kneel and place their head on the ground. A human God would like that just like the Pharos and Caesars. Now why would a supposedly omnipotent being have these emotions and traits. We are talking about the Universe here, all those billions of stars and planets, we are so insignificant. I do believe the ancient priests and clerics decided that if God was presented in the image of man people would be more able to relate. So, it's all a scam, so sad. Now, if you want to know the true nature of the Divine go research those who have come face to face with it. Google Near Death Experience and visit IANDS.org, NDERF.org and IONS.org, all scientific web site with real Scientists doing real research, good luck

 

[CLee421]

On another forum I said: “One reason God does not communicate to everyone is because everyone does not deserve to know that God exists.” I said that people have to be willing to sincerely search for God using their own innate powers of reasoning in order to be worthy of knowing God exists, rather than just sitting back and doing nothing, waiting for God to communicate to them.

Then this one atheist said that was a lame-*** excuse and he says it is just common sense that God should communicate directly to everyone.

This is what he has been saying to me for over three years. Everyone (all of the 7.4 billion people in the world) should get direct communication from God. God should not use Messengers because not everyone believes in them, especially in the beginning, when they first show up on earth.

What do you think; does everyone on earth deserve direct communication from God or should people be required to search for God themselves?

An atheist, says God SHOULD communicate with everyone. Hehehe...

People are very quick to judge Someone they say doesn't exist. Logic?? So - "I don't like Him, He can't exist!"

Anywho...

God HAS spoken to everyone. He's written in all creation proof of His existence and design. He also came as a Man and a lot of His words and actions are documented. His resurrection documented. Belief not required for Him to talk to you (with/through history) belief required for a back and forth communicative relationship.

 

[oldbadger]

Well, I guess we have nothing to worry about, because Baha'is keep telling us they only have jurisdiction over Baha'is. So all the capital punishment will be against other Baha'is. So, nothing to be concerned about... I guess?

...... and their police force just for policing Bahais?

 

[oldbadger]

Whatever the Bab wrote about is not relevant to the Baha’i Faith as it came to be established later.

............ So Bahai was never established in 1844.

The Bab did have some very harsh Laws,

Not many hours ago you challenged me to prove my previous posts............ which I did.
And now you tell us all that you knew all along?

these laws were never implemented and were subject to being abrogated by “the One who God would make manifest” who was Baha'u'llah. Just as the Bab abrogated the Laws of Islam, Baha’u’llah abrogated the Babi laws.

What...... like 19 day months and fasting on the last month, and stuff like that...... all abrogated?
Or do you pick and choose and suit your debating situation, which honestly doesn't look too hot at this time. ...?

The salient point is that none of these alleged activities ever took place.

So they're just stored away in the legislature or writings for bringing to life whenever required?

He revealed numerous laws which were never intended or possible to implement. His laws were designed to make a point and stimulate thought.

Oh......... so the messenger of God for the new dispensation for this age wrote a load of laws, rules and guides which were and are total rhetoric?
Kind of ,'This is all direct from God, but it's not really intended to be serious.'.... ?

They were a stepping stone from the even harsher laws of Islam and the less harsh laws of the Baha’i Faith, as set forth by Baha’u’llah in The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book.

So you think that all the Aqdas and all Bahauallah's laws have been translated and made public knowledge in the West?

And all your critics are liars?

 

[Trailblazer]

An atheist, says God SHOULD communicate with everyone. Hehehe...

Yes, that is very funny for anyone, be it an atheist or a believer, to be telling an Almighty God what He "should do." God does not run a catering company.

 

[Trailblazer]

Whatever the Bab wrote about is not relevant to the Baha’i Faith as it came to be established later.

............ So Bahai was never established in 1844.

The Baha’i Faith started in 1852.

What year did the Baha’i Faith start?

In 1852, one of the Báb's persecuted followers had a revelation in prison that he was the prophet that the Báb had proclaimed. He called himself Bahá'u'lláh, meaning The Glory of God. Bahá'u'lláh was the founder of the Bahá'í faith. Sep 28, 2009
BBC - Religions - Bahai: Origins of Bahá'í history

However, the Baha’i Faith was not established until Baha’u’llah publicly declared He was a prophet in1863.

When was the Baha i religion founded?

It grew from the mid-19th-century Bábí religion, whose founder taught that God would soon send a prophet in the manner of Jesus or Muhammad. In 1863, after being banished from his native Iran, Bahá'u'lláh announced that he was this prophet.
Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

The Bab did have some very harsh Laws,

Not many hours ago you challenged me to prove my previous posts............ which I did.
And now you tell us all that you knew all along?

I knew that the Bab had some harsh laws but I did not know the details until I posted my questions of two Baha’i forums and received my answers. What I posted to you was a synopsis of the answers I received from knowledgeable Baha’is, one of which knows how to read Arabic and Persian.

these laws were never implemented and were subject to being abrogated by “the One who God would make manifest” who was Baha'u'llah. Just as the Bab abrogated the Laws of Islam, Baha’u’llah abrogated the Babi laws.

What...... like 19 day months and fasting on the last month, and stuff like that...... all abrogated?
Or do you pick and choose and suit your debating situation, which honestly doesn't look too hot at this time. ...?

I did not say that “all” the Baha’i Laws are different from the Babi Laws. Baha’u’llah might have chosen to retain “some” of the Babi Laws, but not all of them. The salient point was that the Babi Laws you were referring to were never implemented.

I am not in a debate with you because I am not trying to win anything. I am simply responding to your posts with accurate information about my religion.

The salient point is that none of these alleged activities ever took place.

So they're just stored away in the legislature or writings for bringing to life whenever required?

No, as far as I know, they were not intended to be brought to life because the Baha’i Laws superseded the Babi Laws, since the Revelation of Baha’u’llah superseded the Babi Revelation.

He revealed numerous laws which were never intended or possible to implement. His laws were designed to make a point and stimulate thought.

Oh......... so the messenger of God for the new dispensation for this age wrote a load of laws, rules and guides which were and are total rhetoric?
Kind of ,'This is all direct from God, but it's not really intended to be serious.'.... ?

Straw man. That is not what I said. I said they were designed to get people thinking and the reason was because the Bab knew Him Whom God shall make manifest would be coming soon, and there would be a new Book of Laws.

They were a stepping stone from the even harsher laws of Islam and the less harsh laws of the Baha’i Faith, as set forth by Baha’u’llah in The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book.

So you think that all the Aqdas and all Bahauallah's laws have been translated and made public knowledge in the West?

And all your critics are liars?

The The Kitáb-i-Aqdas contains all the Laws that Baha’u’llah revealed. The Aqdas was translated into English and made public knowledge to the West in 1992. Are you claiming there are some other Laws that remain hidden?

I never said all the critics are liars. They might have some accurate information. All I ever said is that many critics present false information about the Baha’i Faith. I cannot say whether they know the truth and deliberately present false information, or whether they just do not know the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

A most interesting post and question. To answer one really needs to know the nature of the Divine. Unfortunately most religious people have been conditioned (brainwashed) from an early age to believe that God is just like man. You don't think so? Let us look at the evidence: God is a "He", male, that is absurd, in order to me male of female you have to be human or an animal. Religions have endowed their "God" with human emotions, like anger, vengeance, jealousy etc and human traits like murder, cruelty, violence, punishment, instilling fear, sound familiar? They have also endowed it with an ego requiring our praise and adoration, just like a narcissist. They even kneel and place their head on the ground. A human God would like that just like the Pharos and Caesars. Now why would a supposedly omnipotent being have these emotions and traits. We are talking about the Universe here, all those billions of stars and planets, we are so insignificant. I do believe the ancient priests and clerics decided that if God was presented in the image of man people would be more able to relate. So, it's all a scam, so sad. Now, if you want to know the true nature of the Divine go research those who have come face to face with it. Google Near Death Experience and visit IANDS.org, NDERF.org and IONS.org, all scientific web site with real Scientists doing real research, good luck

If you are talking about the Bible, I agree that it presents an anthropomorphic picture of God. God is presented in the image of man. I am not a Christian so I do not believe in the Bible depiction of God, or that God actually did the things that are attributed to Him in the scriptures. I believe that God is unknowable, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.

I am interested in reading on those websites but I do not believe anyone can ever know the true nature of God. I do not believe anyone has ever come face to face with God, or that they ever will, even in the afterlife. I believe that an Intermediary is necessary in order to know God, and that is the Messenger of God. I believe we can experience God’s Spirit in the afterlife through the Messengers of God, also referred to as the Prophets.

 

[oldbadger]

I never said all the critics are liars. They might have some accurate information. All I ever said is that many critics present false information about the Baha’i Faith. I cannot say whether they know the truth and deliberately present false information, or whether they just do not know the truth.

Well that sounds slightly better than what you wrote before:-

Yes, there are plenty of people who have listened to the anti-Baha’i propaganda, the lies people tell about the Baha’i Faith.

Have you ever thought that that the Bahai Faith might be more deceptive than its detractors?

 

[Trailblazer]

Have you ever thought that that the Bahai Faith might be more deceptive than its detractors?

No, because it makes absolutely no logical sense. What would be their motive? It certainly is not monetary or a desire for power, because nobody has any power in the Bahai Faith... Why would the Baha'is sacrifice all their time and dedicate their life to a Cause that was intended to deceive people? It makes no sense at all.

So the only other possibility is that they have been deceived. I cannot see how that is possible because there is no way the Bahai Faith could be false, given there is just too much evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, a Manifestation of God. What individual Baha'is do, what the institutions do, cannot ever change what Baha'u'llah wrote, and that is the bottom line for me.

Besides that, everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, what transpired before and after, is just more evidence that it is the Truth from God. It makes perfect sense that there was so much tumult and chaos surrounding coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah given the greatness of the Cause. If it had nothing of any value, nobody would have been threatened by it and tried to squelch it. My other hat is psychology, so I view everything form a psychological viewpoint.

Shoghi Effendi wrote that if the Baha'is do not rise to the occasion, God will raise up another people to do the work of building the Kingdom of God on earth. The Cause of God will move forward regardless of any human shortcomings just as it has always has in past ages.

Have you ever thought that that the detractors might be more deceptive than the Baha'i Faith?
Wouldn't that be a great loss not to know the Truth from God if it is the Truth?

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, I did several times, but not in the most recent posts. You are the one who keeps bringing it up:
#286 Trailblazer, Friday at 10:04 PM
#293 ChristineM, Yesterday at 7:18 AM

I am not misrepresenting evidence, but more importantly, I am not trying to bolster my personal belief. I have no interest in convincing anyone of anything and I do not need to bolster what I already know is true.

What I have fits the dentition of the word evidence because it is “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief is true or valid.”

You just don’t like what I have, but it is evidence, by definition. There could be no better evidence that someone is a Messenger of God than the evidence we have for Baha’u’llah and there never has been this much evidence for any previous Messenger of God.

I have explained why I think it is evidence several times so I see no need to repeat myself again. You are the one who keeps saying it is not evidence so it is your responsibility to explain why it is not evidence. To just repeating the mantra that it is not evidence is meaningless. There has to be a reason why it is not evidence. Can you explain what other kind of evidence there could be that would be acceptable to you and why it would be better than what I have cited?


I absolutely am not withdrawing my claim. I do not believe without evidence. I have the best evidence there ever was that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God. With all that evidence I do not need proof.

So you repeatedly made the claim of evidence but you rather not anyone remind you that you made that claim, sorry, i didnt realise

Yes you have explained and have provided the definition of evidence and highlighted the areas where you have no evidence. You refuse to accept the definition or the facts but repeatedly show that having no evidence of god means their is evidence that mr prophet was his messenger,. The logic fails. End of story

As i have also shown you several times, your claims align with belief, not evidence.

 

[CG Didymus]

So all translators but Bahais are cheats?
OMG....

Here is your proof, of all that I posted to another member, and challenged by you. I promised an answer tonight, but you may have it now at 11.05hrs gmt.

The Bab wrote about turning non-babis out of five Persian cities, to reside within themselves.

The Bab wrote that Babis could turn non-babis out of their homes.

Bábism - Wikipedia

Some of the new laws included changing the direction of the Qibla to the Báb's house in Shiraz, Iran and changing the calendar to a solar calendar of nineteen months and nineteen days (which became the basis of the Bahá'í calendar) and prescribing the last month as a month of fasting.[20]
The Báb also created a large number of rituals and rites which remained largely unpracticed.[21] Some of these rituals include the carrying of arms only in times of necessity, the obligatory sitting on chairs, the advocating of the cleanliness displayed by Christians, the non-cruel treatment of animals, the prohibition of beating children severely, the recommendation of the printing of books, even scripture and the prohibition on the study of logic or dead languages.[21] While some statements in the Bayan show tolerance, there are other very harsh regulations in regards to relations with non-believers. For example, non-believers are forbidden to live in five central Iranian provinces, the holy places of previous religions are to be demolished, all non-Bábí books should be destroyed, believers are not to marry or sit in the company of non-believers, and the property of non-believers can be taken from them.[21] Some further ritual include elaborate regulations regarding pilgrimage, fasting, the manufacture of rings, the use of perfume, and the washing and disposal of the dead.[21]


More on this:-

The Sūrat al-mulk of the Qayyum al-asma',
OF THE BĀB.
Surah 98. Oh warriors of the Truth, when you stand in lines in a war against unbelievers, do not fear their great numbers, because We have written fear on their hearts. Kill each and every of them and do not let one of them remain on earth."

Surah 97 that means: Oh Believers! Take and occupy every city and its inhabitants for God's religion and do not accept from them a money in exchange ..."

Wow!

 

[wandering peacefully]

............ So Bahai was never established in 1844.


Not many hours ago you challenged me to prove my previous posts............ which I did.
And now you tell us all that you knew all along?


What...... like 19 day months and fasting on the last month, and stuff like that...... all abrogated?
Or do you pick and choose and suit your debating situation, which honestly doesn't look too hot at this time. ...?


So they're just stored away in the legislature or writings for bringing to life whenever required?


Oh......... so the messenger of God for the new dispensation for this age wrote a load of laws, rules and guides which were and are total rhetoric?
Kind of ,'This is all direct from God, but it's not really intended to be serious.'.... ?


So you think that all the Aqdas and all Bahauallah's laws have been translated and made public knowledge in the West?

And all your critics are liars?

I think the book is supposed to be followed as written. Here are a few quotes from it


Everything that is hath come to be through His irresistible decree. Whenever My laws appear like the sun in the heaven of Mine utterance, they must be faithfully obeyed by all, though My decree be such as to cause the heaven of every religion to be cleft asunder.

Of the more than one hundred volumes comprising the sacred Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas is of unique importance. “To build anew the whole world” is the claim and challenge of His Message, and the Kitáb-i-Aqdas is the Charter of the future world civilization that Bahá’u’lláh has come to raise up. Its provisions rest squarely on the foundation established by past religions, for, in the words of Bahá’u’lláh, “This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future.” In this Revelation the concepts of the past are brought to a new level of understanding, and the social laws, changed to suit the age 2 now dawning, are designed to carry humanity forward into a world civilization the splendours of which can as yet be scarcely imagined.The laws and ordinances that constitute the major theme of this Book, Bahá’u’lláh, moreover, has specifically 16 characterized as “the breath of life unto all created things”, as “the mightiest stronghold”, as the “fruits” of His “Tree”, as “the highest means for the maintenance of order in the world and the security of its peoples”, as “the lamps of His wisdom and loving-providence”, as “the sweet-smelling savour of His garment”, and the “keys” of His “mercy” to His creatures. “This Book”, He Himself testifies, “is a heaven which We have adorned with the stars of Our commandments and prohibitions.” “Blessed the man”, He, moreover, has stated, “who will read it, and ponder the verses sent down in it by God, the Lord of Power, the Almighty. Say, O men! Take hold of it with the hand of resignation… By My life! It hath been sent down in a manner that amazeth the minds of men. Verily, it is My weightiest testimony unto all people, and the proof of the All-Merciful unto all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.” And again: “Blessed the palate that savoureth its sweetness, and the perceiving eye that recognizeth that which is treasured therein, and the understanding heart that comprehendeth its allusions and mysteries. By God! Such is the majesty of what hath been revealed therein, and so tremendous the revelation of its veiled allusions that the loins of utterance shake when attempting their description.” And finally: “In such a manner hath the Kitáb-i-Aqdas been revealed that it attracteth and embraceth all the divinely appointed Dispensations. Blessed those who peruse it! Blessed those who apprehend it! Blessed those who meditate upon it! Blessed those who ponder its meaning! So vast is its range that it hath encompassed all men ere their recognition of it. Erelong will its sovereign power, its pervasive In this Charter of the future world civilization its Author—at once the Judge, the Lawgiver, the Unifier and Redeemer of mankind—announces to the kings of the earth the promulgation of the “Most Great Law”; pronounces them to be His vassals; proclaims Himself the “King of Kings”; disclaims any intention of laying hands on their kingdoms; reserves for Himself the right to “seize and possess the hearts of men”; warns the world’s ecclesiastical leaders not to weigh the “Book of God” with such standards as are current amongst them; and affirms that the Book itself is the “Unerring Balance” established amongst men. In it He formally ordains the institution of the “House of Justice”, defines its functions, fixes its revenues, and designates its members as the “Men of Justice”, the “Deputies of God”, the “Trustees of the All-Merciful”; alludes to the future Centre of His Covenant, and invests Him with the right of interpreting His holy Writ; anticipates by implication the 14 institution of Guardianship; bears witness to the revolutionizing effect of His World Order; enunciates the doctrine of the “Most Great Infallibility” of the Manifestation of God; asserts this infallibility to be the inherent and exclusive right of the Prophet; and rules out the possibility of the appearance of another Manifestation ere the lapse of at least one thousand years.

As for the attitudes towards the Bab by Bahais:

Shoghi Effendi feels that the unity of the Bahá’í Revelation as one complete whole embracing the Faith of the Báb should be emphasized… The Faith of the Báb should not be divorced from that of Bahá’u’lláh. Though the teachings of the Bayán have been abrogated and superseded by the laws of the Aqdas, yet due to the fact that the Báb considered Himself as the Forerunner of Bahá’u’lláh, we would regard His Dispensation together with that of Bahá’u’lláh as forming one entity, the former being introductory to the advent of the latter.

 

[oldbadger]

No, because it makes absolutely no logical sense. What would be their motive? It certainly is not monetary or a desire for power, because nobody has any power in the Bahai Faith... Why would the Baha'is sacrifice all their time and dedicate their life to a Cause that was intended to deceive people? It makes no sense at all.

So the only other possibility is that they have been deceived. I cannot see how that is possible because there is no way the Bahai Faith could be false, given there is just too much evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, a Manifestation of God. What individual Baha'is do, what the institutions do, cannot ever change what Baha'u'llah wrote, and that is the bottom line for me.

Besides that, everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, what transpired before and after, is just more evidence that it is the Truth from God. It makes perfect sense that there was so much tumult and chaos surrounding coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah given the greatness of the Cause. If it had nothing of any value, nobody would have been threatened by it and tried to squelch it. My other hat is psychology, so I view everything form a psychological viewpoint.

Shoghi Effendi wrote that if the Baha'is do not rise to the occasion, God will raise up another people to do the work of building the Kingdom of God on earth. The Cause of God will move forward regardless of any human shortcomings just as it has always has in past ages.

Have you ever thought that that the detractors might be more deceptive than the Baha'i Faith?
Wouldn't that be a great loss not to know the Truth from God if it is the Truth?

The above is way off the mark.
Apostasy in early 19th century Persia was very serious, let alone proclaiming and proselyting another religion. On top of that to advocate that Persian Muslims be turned out of their provinces, robbed and otherwise mistreated amounted to insurrection and high treachery. On top of that, to carry arms and be prepared to kill just about topped off the list of disgraces that accompanied the Bab and his followers.

Bahai has always described itself in the most self congratulating terms........ I remember when I was first told that Bahais sit upon and advise the United Nations! Deceptions like that are what focused my scrutiny and suspicion upon them.

You aren't the first to appear as if shocked and slandered by by my descriptions, demanding proof of all, and then when confronted with such proof to explain 'Oh that....... that's not part of Bahai 1852, that's that Babi from before, Bahauallah abrogated this, and that......'. !!

I think I know where the devious deception lies..... together with naive acceptance by some.

 

[CG Didymus]

So you repeatedly made the claim of evidence but you rather not anyone remind you that you made that claim, sorry, i didnt realise

Yes you have explained and have provided the definition of evidence and highlighted the areas where you have no evidence. You refuse to accept the definition or the facts but repeatedly show that having no evidence of god means their is evidence that mr prophet was his messenger,. The logic fails. End of story

As i have also shown you several times, your claims align with belief, not evidence.

Sounds similar to what I get from Christians. "I know in my heart that Jesus is the truth." "The Bible is the truth." And when asked how they know they say, "Because the Bible says so."

How can you argue against that kind of "evidence".