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Why don't atheists accept they are so evangelical and apologetic?

McBell

Unbound
I never said that.

So maybe you should respond to what was said, not what you want to respond to. Thats a strawman. Read what I said.

I said "there was a religious man who created algorithms". Not what you are saying. You have created a strawman to attack.

Strange.
Except I have shown that you did in fact flat out claim that a religious person developed algorithms that made communication possible.

Perhaps you should learn what a strawman fallacy is before falsely claiming others are committing it?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I think you make some good points and you are right, there a few here with that anti-theism zeal. I lived that way too for decades, sadly, Pretty embarrassing now that I look back on my militancy (promoting atheism) but hey, live and learn. I think scientism is a real problem today (as is the evangelical madness coalescing around people like Trump).

See, what I am talking about mainly is the "religiosity". I understand what you say and respect is given where its due Regiomontanus.

All of us sometimes go through different phases. I know many many theists who are militant promoters of their brand of theology and act like God's on their own. Maybe even my own brother. He is a Phd in Islamic studies and his thesis was on tafsir methodology.

Atheism is very important in the world in my opinion. I dont claim I have research to back this up, its only what I think. Atheism is very important because it provides a platform for others to think different. For example, theists adopt a strategy called methodological naturalism when approaching science and even theology. Honestly, without this approach one would find it very difficult to apply textual sciences that academic analyse text with. Like the Bible or the Quran. Its almost impossible to apply something like form criticism or source criticism on a particular text without it. My opinion is that this approach came about because of atheism. And I believe this existed way back in the 10th century. And probably much earlier as well.

Anyway, I have dragged this post a bit I think.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
What is the problem then? You maybe right. SO please explain.
What is the question asked in the thread title? As if all atheists somehow conform to this expectation. As many have remarked, it is all about just having a voice for so many, especially in Islam dominated countries, rather than evangelising - which you seem to see. And actually, how many are doing any perceived evangelising anyway?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Except I have shown that you did in fact flat out claim that a religious person developed algorithms that made communication possible.

Perhaps you should learn what a strawman fallacy is before falsely claiming others are committing it?

Finally.

Yes I did claim that. But I didnt say "to make communication possible". Thats another strawman. Algorithms are active right now, in this very conversation. But that does not mean algorithms made "communication possible". Anyway, since this one single post that I made is your focal point, no problem, lets address it.

Yes. A religious man developed algorithms.

So whats your issue with this? Please do explain.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I have seen arguments like "this verse in my opinion says this" with no regard to what it means. I mean "dogmatic refusal". I have also seen arguments like "God SHOULD HAVE kept languages without changing" so that we don't have to study an ancient language. ;)

Recently there was an argument about a particular verse where the atheist picked up this argument from a "missionary website" but had no clue about it. Very dogmatic faith in a missionary website. What was more strange is that every single one of these episodes were found with other atheists defending this atheist so tribalistically (If there is such a word). Defend my brethren religiously with no regard to who or what is right. This is blind faith and tribalism.

Generally atheists accuse the "religious" of these same traits, but my opinion is that Atheists display these traits immensely but they so religiously deny it, together. The United Nations publication "State of the World’s Indigenous Peoples" has a definition for religion that has all of these traits as the definition. Its a strange thing. One would find the refusal of this also to be "Highly Dogmatic".

Let me state something from the Islamic point of view. The word used in the Qur'an for "religion" is the arabic word "Dheen". But, in all honesty, these two words are very different in meaning. Of course even this explanation can expect a dogmatic retort from someone who says "no. In my opinion they mean the same" :). Nope. Try to analyse it rather than making a dogmatic faith statement. After all, atheists are supposed to be analytical and scientific as most would claim.

The etymology of the word “religion” is very different from that of dheen, and are in fact, different concepts. Some maintain, as did Cicero, that it comes from relegere, meaning, “to treat carefully.” Others follow the fourth-century Christian apologist Lactantius, who maintains that it derives from religare, “to bind.” As Lactantius writes, “We are tied to God and bound to Him (religati) by the bond of piety, and it is from this, and not, as Cicero holds, from careful consideration (relegendo), that religion has received its name. In Arabic, the word dheen means "way or system" in its essence. There have been usages where statements are made like "submission is a system based on reason". In that sentence, submission and system should be replaced by the words Islam and Dheen. The reason to adopt the famous word religion is because people are "bound" together. Does one not see that Atheists display the same symptoms? Maybe they display traits to the word religion more than a so called "religious" person would because its "dheen" for them, not religion. But I have noticed that most atheists do not with to analyse the meaning of the word Religion because they do not want to be associated with it, so they will resort to evangelical methods of denial of simple language. Also may argue that "etymologies dont matter". Actually, whatever argument that they could muster up to deny this. Thats dogmatism. The Romans used this same word as a binding to the state. Not religion. The famous Roman scholar who lived in the 1st century BC called "Cicero" accordingly used a rendition like "to select". So this is what you selected if his rendition is the "one".

One of the signs of religiosity we may observe today is this dogmatic worship of "science". Some atheists seem to claim science for themselves and deny the walking ability of science and religion together. What this seems to bring up is that dogmatic denial of a persons exegesis of his religion to be aligned with science by "hook or crook". This is a dogmatic faith that blinds reason. I address those who deny by default, and never even try and understand someones explanation but just deny no matter what. By Hook or Crook. :) Also they take their information predominantly from apologetic websites. Evangelical websites.

The general missionary response of atheists to "Religere" is that "religion is worshiping a divinity, and we don't" or something similar. But general refusal to analyse the meaning of it, and that they fit the bill in itself shows their religiosity and binding to the faith that "we are not religious". I think this is the definition of being "religious".

Another phenomenon of this level of dogmatic religiosity is the blind denial of facts when trying to blame religion for all the violence in the world forever. I have noticed that scholars who are also atheists dont do this because obviously they are more aware and I honestly have found them to extremely pragmatic and not so dogmatic. Yet, I am speaking about scholars, not evangelists and apologists that atheists seem to follow more.

Of course I expect some ad hominem and character assassination attempts even in this thread which is almost a norm. But in this matter, most atheists in this forum are pretty nice people. Yet at least one or two posts could be seen trying to attack the character of the person rather than analyse the point made in the OP. Thats ad hominem, and shows the character of the person doing it, not the other way around. One of my favourite sayings in the New Testament comes to mind: "Why do you look at the thimble in my eye when you have a plank in yours".

Anyway, this post was made as a general one and I can plead you not to get offended but try and make an analysis of what was said and provide your insight. I will truly appreciate it.

Atheism is just a belief in a lack of good evidence for any God. You may have a God you believe in but billions follow Krishna yet you probably have no compelling evidence to follow him. It's the same for atheists and your religion.
We are not usually dogmatic about science but are open to new science replacing the old. We also demand good evidence for any new scientific discovery and are fully expecting most current science to be upgraded. We care about what can be demonstrated. Science gave us medical tech, cars, computers and more. So it works.
We expect the scientific method to be used any time we could be put at risk. When it comes to new drugs, cars, airplanes, surgery and such we expect each component to be trained in the best way possible and tested in the most scientific way. No one is flying in a plane made by hobbiest or taking risky medicine with potential serious side effects made by amateur chemist without empirical testing. When our lives depend on it we demand empiricism. Because we know it's the best route to truth.
While religion has several Gods vastly different and none have good evidence according to different religions.

Yet we all want the same science to save our lives when you need that transplant.

Yes that is a good saying from the NT. You don't need demigods to give good sayings. Everything Jesus said Rabbi Hillel said in BC including the golden rule, love of peace, love of others, obligation to others, improving yourself, humility and non-judgment. Atheists are not knocking wisdom. Wisdom is in all mythology and modern fiction. Some people care about what is actually true and employ empiricism and critical thinking.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
What is the question asked in the thread title? As if all atheists somehow conform to this expectation. As many have remarked, it is all about just having a voice for so many, especially in Islam dominated countries, rather than evangelising - which you seem to see. And actually, how many are doing any perceived evangelising anyway?

Right. So you are only addressing the title. I get it.
 

McBell

Unbound
Thus far, this thread reminds me of this cartoon:

8xL1A.jpg
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Atheism is just a belief in a lack of good evidence for any God. You may have a God you believe in but billions follow Krishna yet you probably have no compelling evidence to follow him. It's the same for atheists and your religion.
We are not usually dogmatic about science but are open to new science replacing the old. We also demand good evidence for any new scientific discovery and are fully expecting most current science to be upgraded. We care about what can be demonstrated. Science gave us medical tech, cars, computers and more. So it works.
We expect the scientific method to be used any time we could be put at risk. When it comes to new drugs, cars, airplanes, surgery and such we expect each component to be trained in the best way possible and tested in the most scientific way. No one is flying in a plane made by hobbiest or taking risky medicine with potential serious side effects made by amateur chemist without empirical testing. When our lives depend on it we demand empiricism. Because we know it's the best route to truth.
While religion has several Gods vastly different and none have good evidence according to different religions.

Yet we all want the same science to save our lives when you need that transplant.

Yes that is a good saying from the NT. You don't need demigods to give good sayings. Everything Jesus said Rabbi Hillel said in BC including the golden rule, love of peace, love of others, obligation to others, improving yourself, humility and non-judgment. Atheists are not knocking wisdom. Wisdom is in all mythology and modern fiction.

Who do you mean "we"? So are you saying that "we" which I think you mean "atheists" are the only people who are as you said believes in science etc? Really? So you are proving what I said in the OP!

And of course you are trying to turn this into a discussion on God, Gods, validity of them, etc etc. Thats irrelevant. Please read the OP, and address it if you could.
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
I have seen arguments like "this verse in my opinion says this" with no regard to what it means. I mean "dogmatic refusal". I have also seen arguments like "God SHOULD HAVE kept languages without changing" so that we don't have to study an ancient language. ;)

Recently there was an argument about a particular verse where the atheist picked up this argument from a "missionary website" but had no clue about it. Very dogmatic faith in a missionary website. What was more strange is that every single one of these episodes were found with other atheists defending this atheist so tribalistically (If there is such a word). Defend my brethren religiously with no regard to who or what is right. This is blind faith and tribalism.

Generally atheists accuse the "religious" of these same traits, but my opinion is that Atheists display these traits immensely but they so religiously deny it, together. The United Nations publication "State of the World’s Indigenous Peoples" has a definition for religion that has all of these traits as the definition. Its a strange thing. One would find the refusal of this also to be "Highly Dogmatic".

Let me state something from the Islamic point of view. The word used in the Qur'an for "religion" is the arabic word "Dheen". But, in all honesty, these two words are very different in meaning. Of course even this explanation can expect a dogmatic retort from someone who says "no. In my opinion they mean the same" :). Nope. Try to analyse it rather than making a dogmatic faith statement. After all, atheists are supposed to be analytical and scientific as most would claim.

The etymology of the word “religion” is very different from that of dheen, and are in fact, different concepts. Some maintain, as did Cicero, that it comes from relegere, meaning, “to treat carefully.” Others follow the fourth-century Christian apologist Lactantius, who maintains that it derives from religare, “to bind.” As Lactantius writes, “We are tied to God and bound to Him (religati) by the bond of piety, and it is from this, and not, as Cicero holds, from careful consideration (relegendo), that religion has received its name. In Arabic, the word dheen means "way or system" in its essence. There have been usages where statements are made like "submission is a system based on reason". In that sentence, submission and system should be replaced by the words Islam and Dheen. The reason to adopt the famous word religion is because people are "bound" together. Does one not see that Atheists display the same symptoms? Maybe they display traits to the word religion more than a so called "religious" person would because its "dheen" for them, not religion. But I have noticed that most atheists do not with to analyse the meaning of the word Religion because they do not want to be associated with it, so they will resort to evangelical methods of denial of simple language. Also may argue that "etymologies dont matter". Actually, whatever argument that they could muster up to deny this. Thats dogmatism. The Romans used this same word as a binding to the state. Not religion. The famous Roman scholar who lived in the 1st century BC called "Cicero" accordingly used a rendition like "to select". So this is what you selected if his rendition is the "one".

One of the signs of religiosity we may observe today is this dogmatic worship of "science". Some atheists seem to claim science for themselves and deny the walking ability of science and religion together. What this seems to bring up is that dogmatic denial of a persons exegesis of his religion to be aligned with science by "hook or crook". This is a dogmatic faith that blinds reason. I address those who deny by default, and never even try and understand someones explanation but just deny no matter what. By Hook or Crook. :) Also they take their information predominantly from apologetic websites. Evangelical websites.

The general missionary response of atheists to "Religere" is that "religion is worshiping a divinity, and we don't" or something similar. But general refusal to analyse the meaning of it, and that they fit the bill in itself shows their religiosity and binding to the faith that "we are not religious". I think this is the definition of being "religious".

Another phenomenon of this level of dogmatic religiosity is the blind denial of facts when trying to blame religion for all the violence in the world forever. I have noticed that scholars who are also atheists dont do this because obviously they are more aware and I honestly have found them to extremely pragmatic and not so dogmatic. Yet, I am speaking about scholars, not evangelists and apologists that atheists seem to follow more.

Of course I expect some ad hominem and character assassination attempts even in this thread which is almost a norm. But in this matter, most atheists in this forum are pretty nice people. Yet at least one or two posts could be seen trying to attack the character of the person rather than analyse the point made in the OP. Thats ad hominem, and shows the character of the person doing it, not the other way around. One of my favourite sayings in the New Testament comes to mind: "Why do you look at the thimble in my eye when you have a plank in yours".

Anyway, this post was made as a general one and I can plead you not to get offended but try and make an analysis of what was said and provide your insight. I will truly appreciate it.

Many atheists aren't necessarily atheists for the right reasons. There are those who say that there isn't enough evidence at the moment for religious beliefs based off their critical thinking analysis which is the correct reason. Then there are those who say that there definitely isn't a god, at which point they become religious in the sense that they are taking a definite stance on something that cannot be examined.

There are also those who are atheist for emotional reasons and often their complimentary beliefs are also based off of emotion. As Matt Dillahunty would say, those atheists are not atheists for the right reasons. They deny religion based off of emotion and not facts.

People are religious largely because of emotion and tribalism. Many people believe religions because of tribalistic tendencies. But tribalism isn't limited to religion, as it also can apply to any other viewpoint a group might hold. Atheists can also stick to viewpoints because of peer pressure and tribalism and this is especially evident when they are not consistent with their reasoning.

I think that people shouldn't comment on the specifics of a religion unless that specific is really clear cut, such as saying that homosexuals can be killed. There is no way around that point so they can comment.

When quoting texts though, atheists do well to quote books that they have actually read so that they can do it in context. There is no point in using a tool when one doesn't know anything about it. Rather learn the tool and then when using it you will use it effectively.

That being said, there are certain points that one can criticize a religion based off logical conclusions. One point is saying that everybody knows that God exists. if you are an atheist and you know that you do not know that god exists, then evidently that religious belief is wrong. Unexaminable to others, but a fact to yourself.

I have never seen atheists worship science, but on order to be objective, they must realize its limitations at any given moment if they do not do so already.
 

McBell

Unbound
Finally.

Yes I did claim that. But I didnt say "to make communication possible". Thats another strawman. Algorithms are active right now, in this very conversation. But that does not mean algorithms made "communication possible". Anyway, since this one single post that I made is your focal point, no problem, lets address it.

Yes. A religious man developed algorithms.

So whats your issue with this? Please do explain.
My issue is that instead of naming them, you went off into left field about how you did not make the claim.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Many atheists aren't necessarily atheists for the right reasons. There are those who say that there isn't enough evidence at the moment for religious beliefs based off their critical thinking analysis which is the correct reason. Then there are those who say that there definitely isn't a god, at which point they become religious in the sense that they are taking a definite stance on something that cannot be examined.

There are also those who are atheist for emotional reasons and often their complimentary beliefs are also based off of emotion. As Matt Dillahunty would say, those atheists are not atheists for the right reasons. They deny religion based off of emotion and not facts.

People are religious largely because of emotion and tribalism. Many people believe religions because of tribalistic tendencies. But tribalism isn't limited to religion, as it also can apply to any other viewpoint a group might hold. Atheists can also stick to viewpoints because of peer pressure and tribalism and this is especially evident when they are not consistent with their reasoning.

I think that people shouldn't comment on the specifics of a religion unless that specific is really clear cut, such as saying that homosexuals can be killed. There is no way around that point so they can comment.

When quoting texts though, atheists do well to quote books that they have actually read so that they can do it in context. There is no point in using a tool when one doesn't know anything about it. Rather learn the tool and then when using it you will use it effectively.

That being said, there are certain points that one can criticize a religion based off logical conclusions. One point is saying that everybody knows that God exists. if you are an atheist and you know that you do not know that god exists, then evidently that religious belief is wrong. Unexaminable to others, but a fact to yourself.

I have never seen atheists worship science, but on order to be objective, they must realize its limitations at any given moment if they do not do so already.

I think that is absolutely correct.

Also you should note that it is PEW research that says around 18% of atheists in the U.S believe in some kind of divinity, which by definition makes them a theist. Atheism is an "Identity statement". So you would get this. Im sure its the same case with religions as well.

Some of the greats that I respect and follow are atheists. Thats nothing new. But I am addressing a completely different matter. I hope you understand.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
My issue is that instead of naming them, you went off into left field about how you did not make the claim.

When you say "THE CLAIM", what do you specifically mean? Do you mean the strawman someone else created and you responded to defend that person because that person is also an atheist? This tribalistic tendency I have already explained in the OP. You proved it. You may not have even read my claim properly before you address it but it was instinct. That is tribalism.

You seem like a religious person. Now I am sure you would get offended, but this is fact and if you read the OP I have explained this.

Anyway, you are not addressing the OP, and you seem to be hell bent on making a character analysis of my personal self rather than addressing the points made in the post. I of course anticipated that because it is very normal. And I mentioned that in the OP.

Cheers.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You have gone out of your way to make the OP nothing more than a self fulfilling prophecy.

I shall cut and paste FYI.

Anyway, you are not addressing the OP, and you seem to be hell bent on making a character analysis of my personal self rather than addressing the points made in the post. I of course anticipated that because it is very normal. And I mentioned that in the OP.

Cheers.
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
I think that is absolutely correct.

Also you should note that it is PEW research that says around 18% of atheists in the U.S believe in some kind of divinity, which by definition makes them a theist. Atheism is an "Identity statement". So you would get this. Im sure its the same case with religions as well.

Some of the greats that I respect and follow are atheists. Thats nothing new. But I am addressing a completely different matter. I hope you understand.

From what understand from your OP is that you are saying that there are atheists whose actions show that they are tribalistic and indoctrinated. Thus their actions can be seen as religious. Especially the dogmatic denial and confirmation bias. Am I correct?

Also atheism then seems to be a tribalistic term that people identify themselves with. Much like a lot of self proclaimed Christians or Muslims who actually act like athiests.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You didnt address the post at all. Thats a big sign of missionary type of activity.

Anyway, what you have just done is prove the OP. You claimed in other words that Atheists have started to evangelise and make missionary type of apologetics, but worded it differently.

Also, about science you missed the bus completely. Oh yes. Without science we will not be communicating. And there was a religious guy who developed algorithms that made that possible. Now someone might turn around and say "it was not because of religion" which would show that person missed the whole point.

You just made it clear that you seem to think science is exclusive to atheists. Also you made it clear that "we" as in your group, are a religious group.

Isn't it?
Most atheists neither evangelize nor regularly discuss their lack of belief. After all, they have no doctrine or ideology to push, plus subject rarely comes up.
We will reply, however, with explanations and apologetics when asked or challenged, but don't mistake this for evangelizing.

In my case, noöne I know is aware of my lack of belief. It's only here on RF that it's generally known, and that's only because the subject is always coming up -- this being a religious forum and all.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
From what understand from your OP is that you are saying that there are atheists whose actions show that they are tribalistic and indoctrinated. Thus their actions can be seen as religious. Especially the dogmatic denial and confirmation bias. Am I correct?

Also atheism then seems to be a tribalistic term that people identify themselves with. Much like a lot of self proclaimed Christians or Muslims who actually act like athiests.

Yes. Absolutely Israel Khan.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Most atheists neither evangelize nor regularly discuss their lack of belief. After all, they have no doctrine or ideology to push, plus subject rarely comes up.
We will reply, however, with explanations and apologetics when asked or challenged, but don't mistake this for evangelizing.

In my case, noöne I know is aware of my lack of belief. It's only here on RF that it's generally known, and that's only because the subject is always coming up -- this being a religious forum and all.

That I do agree with Valjean.
 
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