Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[neillien]

It doesn't matter if you drink straight Kool Aid or if you drink Kool Aid with cyanide.
If you have a burning in the bosom before you drink, the burning is not going to let you know what the ingredients are in the container.

And so, praying over the BoM and getting a feeling from an unknown source, this burning in the bosom can in no way verify if the LDS religion is based on truth . . . or mixed with cyanide.

Know the contents before you decide to believe and drink. It could just save your (eternal) life.

 

[Starfish]

Judaism wasn't corrupted. The people were ("all have sinned"). The law had not changed. Christ fulfilled the law because we couldn't. He then was sacrificed for us. Now there is no longer a need for an Aaronic priesthood because there are no sacrifices (if you follow Judaeo-Christianity).

As long as baptism is required, we do need the Aaronic priesthood. Without it, there is no authority to baptize.

This was the intention of my original post. LDS have revived a Jewish tradition that has no place in Traditional Christianity.

Traditional Christianity and LDS have opposite beliefs. This is why LDS are not considered to be Christian by Traditional Christianity . And LDS should espouse loudly that those of Traditional Christianity are also not Christians to them.

Don't try to get Traditional Christianity to say that you're one of them. Instead, proudly say that Traditional Christianity is not Christian.

If you break down the term Christianity into sub-titles, then we are not "Traditional Christians". No argument there. We are "Restored Christianity". That's been said many times. But most people don't bother breaking it down into specifics. So in general terms, all those who believe in Christ's divinity, and strive to follow his doctrine to their best understanding--are Christians*.

It's simply a matter of which definition of "Christian" you use. The LDS use the one I just stated*, Traditional Christians use another.

 

[Starfish]

It doesn't matter if you drink straight Kool Aid or if you drink Kool Aid with cyanide.
If you have a burning in the bosom before you drink, the burning is not going to let you know what the ingredients are in the container.

And so, praying over the BoM and getting a feeling from an unknown source, this burning in the bosom can in no way verify if the LDS religion is based on truth . . . or mixed with cyanide.

Know the contents before you decide to believe and drink. It could just save your (eternal) life.

Interesting. I've been LDS all my life, and have never experienced any burning feeling.
Have you never felt the influence of the Holy Ghost? If not, why not? We are promised by the Savior that the Holy Ghost will be with us to give us comfort, strength, and knowledge. Have you not felt it? Again, why not? I have felt it. The Holy Ghost has helped me to know that the gospel of Jesus Christ, as taught in the LDS Church, is true.

So whether one feels the Holy Ghost through a bossom-burning sensation, or by another way, it's a true principle. It's what Christ taught. And your advice to know the contents is exactly right. Read the book. Then pray about it.

 

[Scott C.]

Don't try to get Traditional Christianity to say that you're one of them. Instead, proudly say that Traditional Christianity is not Christian.

If by traditional Christianity, you mean doctrines as taught by Christian churches today, then as an LDS I accept some of what is taught and reject some of what is taught by traditional Chirstianity. I reject those parts that I believe are non-Biblical and accept those parts that are Biblical. A non-LDS who teaches traditional Christianity, by this definition, would say that everything they teach is Biblical. So, we have a difference of opinion on what is Biblical. I could make an argument that the LDS Church is the only Christian church, since it is the only church led by a prophet of Jesus and the only church with the authority of Jesus to perform the ordinances of Christ. But, I choose not to narrowly define Christianity that way. If a person believes they believe the Bible, believes Jesus is Lord, but also believes in what I consider to be non-biblical doctrines, such as the Trinity, no need for Priesthood, no need for living prophets, I still accept that person as Christian. In other words I consider many people to be Christian who believe in doctrines which I consider to be flat out false and not taught by the Bible. If they believe Jesus is Lord and are trying to live a good live, reflective of their faith, and sincerely believe that they believe in the Bible, then I accept them as Christians. Now if a non-LDS Christian defines Christianity the same way as I do, then that Christian would accept the LDS as Christian also. If I were to be as narrow in my definition of Christian, as some Christians are in theirs, then I would conclude that only LDS are Christian, and only some of them.

 

[nutshell]

It doesn't matter if you drink straight Kool Aid or if you drink Kool Aid with cyanide.
If you have a burning in the bosom before you drink, the burning is not going to let you know what the ingredients are in the container.

And so, praying over the BoM and getting a feeling from an unknown source, this burning in the bosom can in no way verify if the LDS religion is based on truth . . . or mixed with cyanide.

Know the contents before you decide to believe and drink. It could just save your (eternal) life.

I too have never had some "burning." Rather, I received confirmation from the Spirit of the Father in the same way that Peter received confirmation that Jesus is the Christ.

 

[Bishka]

It doesn't matter if you drink straight Kool Aid or if you drink Kool Aid with cyanide.
If you have a burning in the bosom before you drink, the burning is not going to let you know what the ingredients are in the container.

And so, praying over the BoM and getting a feeling from an unknown source, this burning in the bosom can in no way verify if the LDS religion is based on truth . . . or mixed with cyanide.

Know the contents before you decide to believe and drink. It could just save your (eternal) life.

Colorful.......

That's all you really have going for you though.

 

[DeepShadow]

It doesn't matter if you drink straight Kool Aid or if you drink Kool Aid with cyanide.
If you have a burning in the bosom before you drink, the burning is not going to let you know what the ingredients are in the container.

And so, praying over the BoM and getting a feeling from an unknown source, this burning in the bosom can in no way verify if the LDS religion is based on truth . . . or mixed with cyanide.

Know the contents before you decide to believe and drink. It could just save your (eternal) life.

Don't base your eternal salvation on heartburn. Got it.

 

[neillien]

Colorful.......

That's all you really have going for you though.

Most people say I'm too black & white

 

[Katzpur]

Most people say I'm too black & white

I'm just curious, neillien... Since you've been here on RF, you have contributed a grand total of five posts -- all of them critical of Mormonism and all in this one thread. One might guess you have something of an agenda here. Of all the topics on RF, are there no others that interest you, or is your sole purpose for being here to insult the LDS posters?

 

[neillien]

As long as baptism is required, we do need the Aaronic priesthood. Without it, there is no authority to baptize.

You're going to have to send me some non-LDS info that historically details the aaronic priesthood having anything to do with baptism. Just because John was a priest that baptised; this doesn't give creedence to your assertion.

From my reading of Jewish history, the priests were there for sacrifices. Once Christ became the final sacrifice then Christians became free of the law. All male and female believers are part of a "royal priesthood". They go straight into the Holy of Holies to commune with God. Having literal priests become redundant and it negates that Christ fulfilled the law.

. . . all those who believe in Christ's divinity, and strive to follow his doctrine to their best understanding--are Christians*.

I would agree with that in the same sense that anyone born in America is an American. But there's a difference between the George Washington American and the Benedict Arnold American. One of them is not truly American.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

I too have never had some "burning." Rather, I received confirmation from the Spirit of the Father in the same way that Peter received confirmation that Jesus is the Christ.

Really? It's an incredible feeling, but it's not emotional. For me, it radiates outward from the middle of the chest, but it's like trying to describe the flavor of salt to someone whose never tasted it. Anyone can have it from anything. The first time I experieced it was reading The Prophet by Khalil Gibran and knew was an affirmation of truth. Further experience, from reading books like the Bhagavad Gita and The Impersonal Life, made me realize that it was not an affirmation of The Truth, but the affirmation of direction. That, I think, is the mistake of "kool-aid drinkers": thinking the "burning in the bosom" is informing them of Truth itself. They get stuck, but in truth non-movement is impossible and there are only two directions: "up" and "down."

Since we all have different temperments, come from different backgrounds and have different experiences, we respond to different catalysts.

 

[silvermoon383]

I would agree with that in the same sense that anyone born in America is an American. But there's a difference between the George Washington American and the Benedict Arnold American. One of them is not truly American.

I do believe you've just committed the "True Scotsman" fallacy.

 

[neillien]

I'll try to be brief . . . and colorful.

. . . One might guess you have something of an agenda here . . .
are there no others that interest you, or is your sole purpose for being here to insult the
LDS posters?

I'm not sure what you mean by agenda.
I'm sure other forums would interest me.
My intention is not to insult (hence, I type with caution, one example being using the term LDS instead of Mormon).

. . . Have you never felt the influence of the Holy Ghost? . . .
whether one feels the Holy Ghost through a bossom-burning sensation, or by another way, it's
a true principle . . .

When I was young, a holy man stood in front of a group of us and we all passed out.
When I was older I prayed for God to speak to me. 5 minutes later a stranger came up to me
and said God told him to give me a message (which he then did).
Would you consider these events from the Holy Ghost?
[Caution: you may not like the man's message]

. . . And your advice to know the contents is exactly right. Read
the book. Then pray about it.

If the way you know truth is through a spiritual
encounter, the initial reading is unnecessary.

. . . what I consider to be non-biblical doctrines, such as the Trinity, no
need for Priesthood, no need for living prophets . . .

* I do not believe in the word Trinity. I do believe, though, that God has revealed himself
through three beings: Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
* I do believe in living prophets.
* The Bible does say that Christ is our priest and every man/woman believer is a priest, also.

. . . I received confirmation . . .in the same way that Peter
received confirmation . . .

If someone receives confirmation that
the Bible is the only book that will ever come from God,
and there will never be a time in history that another book will come from God,
should the person who received that message say
"I'm not going to trust this confirmation because it just doesn't sound right (although it feels right)" ?

 

[nutshell]

If someone receives confirmation that
the Bible is the only book that will ever come from God,
and there will never be a time in history that another book will come from God,
should the person who received that message say
"I'm not going to trust this confirmation because it just doesn't sound right (although it feels right)" ?

I received confirmation the same way Peter did. Sorry if that's not good enough for you.

Regardining your own experiences - how do you know the messengers were sent from God and not the Devil?

 

[neillien]

I received confirmation the same way Peter did. Sorry if that's not good enough for you.

What's good enough for God is good enough for me. :yes:

IRegardining your own experiences - how do you know the messengers were sent from God and not the Devil?

Is there a way to "test the spirits" as the Bible says?

 

[nutshell]

Is there a way to "test the spirits" as the Bible says?

If the Bible says there is a way then there is.

 

[madhatter85]

that's cool, there is a way to "test" messengers described in the Doctrine & Covenants. It's a wonderful book as well.

 

[neillien]

Actually, it fulfills, not "ends" the [Old Covenant].

That is correct. I should've said that Christ’s work is the end of being under the law of the O.C.

The law for a Jew was
* Follow 613 commands (always unsuccessfully).
* Bring a perfect animal to temple because of sin.
* Have the priest sacrifice in your name.
* Go home, still without your sins gone or a clear conscience.

But now, he/she can:
* Believe on Christ

This is slightly different for us who are not Jewish.
Like Abraham, we were never under the law, yet we partake of the same righteousness by having the same faith. And we, too, are free.

To understand this freedom, it would be as if
* Joseph Smith fulfills his mission, so you can
* Pray over the Book of Mormon
* Receive confirmation and then believe that it is true.
* Know that you are righteous in God's eyes at that moment.
* Become part of the Royal Priesthood (all men and women).
* Instantly enter any temple of God
* Run your life by direct Spiritual leading, not by humans that do the thinking.

Coming to God through Christ has not changed. There is nothing to restore with this theology. But LDS belief is in conflict with it.

I look forward to correcting my new mistakes and accepting your grace that comes with it. :slap:

 

[Katzpur]

It is too much of an Accident, too much of it smells smack of Fr eemasonry of which Joseph Smith was such a relevent part and Iroquis myths

Fascinating observation. Specifically, which verses smack of Freemasonry? And which Iroquis myths are you referring to?

 

[nutshell]

That is correct. I should've said that Christ’s work is the end of being under the law of the O.C.

The law for a Jew was
* Follow 613 commands (always unsuccessfully).
* Bring a perfect animal to temple because of sin.
* Have the priest sacrifice in your name.
* Go home, still without your sins gone or a clear conscience.

But now, he/she can:
* Believe on Christ

This is slightly different for us who are not Jewish.
Like Abraham, we were never under the law, yet we partake of the same righteousness by having the same faith. And we, too, are free.

To understand this freedom, it would be as if
* Joseph Smith fulfills his mission, so you can
* Pray over the Book of Mormon
* Receive confirmation and then believe that it is true.
* Know that you are righteous in God's eyes at that moment.
* Become part of the Royal Priesthood (all men and women).
* Instantly enter any temple of God
* Run your life by direct Spiritual leading, not by humans that do the thinking.

Coming to God through Christ has not changed. There is nothing to restore with this theology. But LDS belief is in conflict with it.

I look forward to correcting my new mistakes and accepting your grace that comes with it. :slap:

Thank you for your post. Coming to God through Christ is what we do. We don't get to God by reading the Book of Mormon or going to the temple or doing any of the other "Mormon" things. We get to God via Christ. Indeed, we refer to Christ's love as charity, which may be said to be "the pure love of Christ." I am reminded of this scripture from Paul:

1 Cor. 13: 1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Should we "do" things? Yes. But "doing" only matters if we too have charity, the pure love of Christ. It is ONLY through Christ that we get to God.

The scribes and Pharisees often fought over which of the 600+ commandments were the greatest. They used this debate as an opportunity to trap the savior. They came to him and asked him which was the greatest and he answered:

Mark 12: 30-31
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

If Mormons "do" things like read the Book of Mormon and go to temple, it is because we love God. If we "do" things like bring food to the poor or help a family move, it is because we love God and love our neighbor.

We strive to have the same love for God and others that Christ has for us because we know it is the only way to God. Anything we do without this, like Paul says, profiteth us nothing.