Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[idea]

Sorry, there's so much literature surrounding Mormonism that it's difficult to know where the BOM ends and something else begins,plus the Elders are always flip-flopping and doing u-turns-

Let me ask, do you practice animal sacrifices in your church? No? but it is in the Bible - so are you saying that the Bible is flip-flopping and doing u-turns? It must be, if current Christians are no longer practicing what a good majority of the Bible is telling them too... hmmmm

It's called line upon line...

So many "saints" in the Bible killed people, and had multiple wives... if you argue against people killing others and having more than one wife, you do not agree with the Bible.

 

[idea]

Christ is the only high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Didn't Melchizedek himself hold the Melchizedek priesthood? I mean that is why it is called "Melchizedek" so Jesus was not the only one...

Christ shall be a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek, Ps. 110:4 (Heb. 5:6, 10; 7:11). The Melchizedek Priesthood administers the gospel, Heb. 7 (D&C 84:18–25).
(Guide to the Scriptures | M Melchizedek Priesthood.:Entry)

It was an entire "order" of people who held this...

 

[Katzpur]

Sorry, there's so much literature surrounding Mormonism that it's difficult to know where the BOM ends and something else begins...

Well, that's a problem easily solved. The official canon is comprised of four volumes of scripture: (1) The Holy Bible (KJV generally speaking), (2) The Book of Mormon, (3) The Doctrine and Covenants, and (3) the Pearl of Great Price. Knowing where the Book of Mormon ends and something else begins is not all that difficult. When you get to Moroni 10:34, you've reached the end of the Book of Mormon. It's sort of like when you get to Malachi 4:6, you're done with the Old Testament.

...plus the Elders are always flip-flopping and doing u-turns-"Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world"- Mormon Elder Bruce R. McConkie in an address to a Symposium for Seminary and Institute teachers, Brigham Young University, 18 Aug. 1978

Why do you think we have an official canon? None of our leadership has ever claimed to be perfect or infallible. They're just men with their own opinions. If you stick to the LDS canon (aka "the Stardard Works") you don't need to worry about being confused. Then too, in a Church that believes in continuing revelation, you've got to expect that from time to time, new perspectives are going to surface. That's the point behind having a Church led by prophets and apostles and not just by some guy with a degree from a divinity college.

But the basic undisputed facts of Mormonism are enough to put me and others off, for example Joseph Smith carried a gun and killed somebody with it, he had about 45 wives and Brigham Young had 55, the Book of Mormon says God thinks Christians are "fools" for thinking the Bible is all we need, and so on..

Joseph Smith was martyred by a mob of some two hundred men. He was shot four times before he died, and multiple shots were also fired into his lifeless body. He had a gun on him at the time, which he had fired in self-defense.

I don't actually know how many wives Joseph Smith or Brigham Young had and, to be honest, neither do you. Suffice it to say, he had quite a few. So did Abraham and many other Old Testament prophets. Is that enough to "put you off" with respect to the truths taught in the Bible?

I asked you in another post why you are so sure the Bible contains everything God wants you to know about Him? I can't remember which thread it was in, but maybe you could answer the question here.

As for me, yeah your name rings a bell too, we've been around..

Yes, we have. But I always post as Katzpur. Waymarker doesn't ring a bell, but your avatar and style do.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

No, the unanswered questions are all answered in Jesus Christ! Some men have no interest in Christ. To those men, the preaching of the cross is foolishness. To those who are saved it is the power of God. The saved are complete in Him; they go in and out and find pasture. They have eternal life. Eternal life is not reserved for those who have a complete understanding of the Bible. Many are babes in Christ, yet they are in Christ. They will grow in grace and in the knowledge of Him.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)

So... Once you latch on to Jesus Christ, as found in the Bible, you don't let go. This will lead you into life eternal. You will grow from grace to grace in Christ. Aletheia, You. Have. It. Right. On. You do. You are absolutely right! One day, no matter how far distant, you will understand the truths taught in the Book of Mormon as well. Whether that day is now, or some place in the future is up to you. But just because you have the truth, don't close your mind to more of it.

 

[Katzpur]

And who can do the will of God?

We can all do our best. After all, Christ commanded us to obey our Father in Heaven. We shouldn't just dismiss what He said because we are convinced we will fail.

So then the question becomes, "Do you belong to Christ or Satan?"

And the answer is, "I belong to Christ."

How are we made holy? We are made holy by faith in Christ.

We are made holy by our faith in Jesus Christ and by our faithfulness to Him.

Who are the doers? They are the sheep. They are the saved. They are the ones who have faith. They are the ones who are born of God. They are the ones whom the Lord sanctifies.

They are the ones who endure to the end.

And who obeys him? Is it the believers or the unbelievers? Who has the power to obey him?

The believers, obviously.

Dead faith doesn't save. But God doesn't give us dead faith.

That's right. But if our faith is not evidenced in our works, it is dead.

Christ is the only high priest after the order of Melchizedek. His priesthood is not transferable. No one else can hold it.

Please quote chapter and verse telling me where the Bible says this. I hope it's more convincing than the scriptures you provided to prove that the Aaronic Priesthood is no longer part of the Church Christ established.

 

[idea]

Please quote chapter and verse telling me where the Bible says this. I hope it's more convincing than the scriptures you provided to prove that the Aaronic Priesthood is no longer needed.

Here is the issue:

Priesthood non-transferable - FAIRMormon

The rather late Christian understanding that Jesus would be the last High Priest of the Melchizedek order (see Hebrew 7:24, marginal reading no. 5 in most King James Version translations) is based on an erroneous interpretation of the Greek word aparabaton which does not mean "intransmissible" but means "unchangeable" when referring to Jesus' priesthood.

The claim that priesthood is non-transferrable fails on linguistic, scriptural, scholarly, and logical grounds.

read entire article

 

[idea]

Well, that's a problem easily solved. The official canon is comprised of four volumes of scripture: (1) The Holy Bible (KJV generally speaking), (2) The Book of Mormon, (3) The Doctrine and Covenants, and (3) the Pearl of Great Price. Knowing where the Book of Mormon ends and something else begins is not all that difficult. When you get to Moroni 10:34, you've reached the end of the Book of Mormon. It's sort of like when you get to Malachi 4:6, you're done with the Old Testament.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
(Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:9)

AKA we believe in an open cannon....
There are a few books we do not have in the BoM...

Scriptures, Lost (see also Scriptures to Come Forth; BD Lost Books)
Ex. 24:7 took the book of the covenant
Num. 21:14 book of the wars of the Lord
(you get the point, I will not underline it all)
Josh. 10:13 (2 Sam. 1:18) book of Jasher
1 Sam. 10:25 Samuel ... wrote it in a book
1 Kgs. 11:41 book of the acts of Solomon
1 Chr. 29:29 book of Samuel the seer
2 Chr. 9:29 book of Nathan the prophet
2 Chr. 12:15 book of Shemaiah the prophet
2 Chr. 13:22 acts of Abijah ... in the story of the prophet Iddo
2 Chr. 20:34 book of Jehu
2 Chr. 33:19 written among the sayings of the seers
Matt. 2:23 spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene
1 Cor. 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle
Eph. 3:3 as I wrote afore in few words
Col. 4:16 read the epistle from Laodicea
Jude 1:3 when I gave all diligence to write unto you
Jude 1:14 Enoch also ... prophesied of these
1 Ne. 13:26 taken away ... many parts which are plain
1 Ne. 19:10 (3 Ne. 10:16) words of Zenock ... according to the words of Neum
2 Ne. 29:12 I shall also speak unto all nations ... they shall write
Jacob 5:1 (6:1; Alma 33:3; 34:7; Hel. 15:11) do ye not remember ... the words of the prophet Zenos
Alma 63:12 parts which had been commanded ... should not go forth
Hel. 8:20 also Zenock, and also Ezias, and also Isaiah
Ether 1:5 (3:17, 21) I give not the full account, but a part
Ether 15:33 hundredth part I have not written
D&C 107:57 book of Enoch
Moses 1:41 men shall ... take many of them from the book
Moses 6:5 book of remembrance was kept
See also 2 Chr. 26:22; 1 Ne. 13:34.
(Topical Guide | S Scriptures, Lost:Entry)


There are many "books" that we do not have

 

[Katzpur]

The claim that priesthood is non-transferrable fails on linguistic, scriptural, scholarly, and logical grounds.

Thanks, idea. As far as I'm concerned, it fails on every conceivable ground. How could the Church function as Jesus wanted it to function if no one held the authority to perform the ordinances He established? That's a no-brainer in my book.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I think I understand. The scriptures you posted were helpful. You feel that the church ended with Jesus.

What? The Church didn't end with Jesus and Jesus is still the Head of His Church! Believers are the body.

There is no more need for a "church" per say. He fulfilled the law and the prophets, meaning that there is no more need for them. Is this assessment of your position correct?

The Holy Spirit guides every believer into all truth. The prophets are those who preach and teach the word of God.

Anyhow, I don't see where there were any put-downs of the royal priesthood. Maybe I missed something.

If Christians/followers of Christ/Saints/believers are the body of Christ and are a royal priesthood, why do LDS claim that Christians/followers of Christ/Saints/believers do not have authority to baptize?

As to the Bible, I don't think you should be sore about that. Look at the Bible. It's great. Anything the Book of Mormon says can not change or diminish the Bible. What the Book of Mormon says, is that many of the plain and precious truths were taken out of it, causing many people to stumble. Don't you see a lot of stumbling? Look around on this forum. How many people stumble because the Bible, while the word of God, doesn't provide a complete picture?

How many are under Satan's power? That's not for me to say. How many Christians are not led by the Holy Spirit? Zero.

How many points of doctrine are debated endlessly with no real way of settling the dispute?

If you are asking how to get all of mankind to agree on religion and doctrine, I would say that God didn't plan or expect that. But God answers those who want to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit leads Christians into all truth.


28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8)

How many points of doctrine are universally agreed upon throughout Christianity?

What is Christianity? I don't see that in my Bible. The Bible talks about the body of Christ of whom Christ is the head.

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. (2 Timothy 2:19)

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. (John 10)

If God knows who His sheep are, He will guide them into all truth.

Precious few. We are stumbling. The truth is there, for sure. But it doesn't form a complete picture.

Does Jesus guide His sheep or has He abandoned them?

We have been trying to piece it together for centuries. And what we have come up with is a thousand different pictures from the same pieces.

Who is "we?"

The Bible, on it's own, as we find it today, is incomplete.

Men didn't remove parts of the Bible as the Book of Mormon teaches.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness2 Tim. 3:16)

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.(1 Corinthians 13:12)

 

[Charity]

Why don't Christians accept the Book of mormon as valid?......Because we like being judgmental and self righteous.....
And besides then we would have to find another denomination to pick on because you know that Christians can't be happy unless they are finding fault somewhere...........besides if we keep the attention on the Book of mormon and the LDS that keeps us from having to defend our beliefs....It's a defense mechanism......
I happen to think the world of Katz and all you other LDS.....

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Thanks, idea. As far as I'm concerned, it fails on every conceivable ground. How could the Church function as Jesus wanted it to function if no one held the authority to perform the ordinances He established? That's a no-brainer in my book.

Authority is given to the royal priesthood who are the believers who are the body of whom Christ is the head.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Why don't Christians accept the Book of mormon as valid?......Because we like being judgmental and self righteous.....
And besides then we would have to find another denomination to pick on because you know that Christians can't be happy unless they are finding fault somewhere...........besides if we keep the attention on the Book of mormon and the LDS that keeps us from having to defend our beliefs....It's a defense mechanism......
I happen to think the world of Katz and all you other LDS.....

Thanks. I've come to respect you for your great wisdom and love.

 

[Katzpur]

Authority is given to the royal priesthood who are the believers who are the body of whom Christ is the head.

By the laying on of hands by one who already holds that authority, as the scriptures say must be the case?

 

[Charity]

Thanks. I've come to respect you for your great wisdom and love.

Thank you for your kind words and I enjoy reading your posts and find your beliefs to be similar to mine in several ways.....

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

What? The Church didn't end with Jesus and Jesus is still the Head of His Church! Believers are the body.

Sorry, when I said church I meant the organizational structure: prophets, apostles, priests, teachers, deacons, etc...

The Holy Spirit guides every believer into all truth. The prophets are those who preach and teach the word of God.

Agreed. And might I add, I wish that more of us would heed the wisdom that he teaches us. This world would change drastically for the better...

A question, what role do prophets fill. Does it go away once people receive the Spirit to guide them?

If Christians/followers of Christ/Saints/believers are the body of Christ and are a royal priesthood, why do LDS claim that Christians/followers of Christ/Saints/believers do not have authority to baptize?

I don't get this one. Why is the Church a royal priesthood?

Could I baptize someone if I wanted to? After all, I consider myself a follower of Christ.

How many are under Satan's power? That's not for me to say. How many Christians are not led by the Holy Spirit? Zero.

Let me see... So all Christians are led by the Holy Spirit? How do we determine who is a Christian? Are you saying that all Christians have the guidance of the Spirit available to them? With that I can agree. If you mean that all Christians are following the guidance of the Spirit, then I don't know.

If you are asking how to get all of mankind to agree on religion and doctrine, I would say that God didn't plan or expect that.

The church is the body of Christ. Shouldn't it reflect his attributes? "If ye are not one, ye are not mine."

But God answers those who want to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit leads Christians into all truth.

Yes! May we all make an effort to do so.

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8)




What is Christianity? I don't see that in my Bible. The Bible talks about the body of Christ of whom Christ is the head.

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. (2 Timothy 2:19)

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. (John 10)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness2 Tim. 3:16)

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.(1 Corinthians 13:12)

Yes, all scripture is given by inspiration of God. To bad we don't have a copy of the scriptures in the Bible exactly as they were given by the inspiration of God. I would love to have such a treasure. By the way, Corintians 13:12 is one of my favorite scriptures. Pretty powerful if you ask me.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Authority is given to the royal priesthood who are the believers who are the body of whom Christ is the head.

I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on the idea that the believers are the royal priesthood. It's a new concept for me.

 

[Watchmen]

I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on the idea that the believers are the royal priesthood. It's a new concept for me.

1 Peter 2:9

 

[idea]

1 Peter 2:9

http://en.fairmormon.org/Christians_don't_need_a_mediating_priesthood

I find all this bickering tedious. We are living in the last days, days in which morals are under attack, the world is in turmoil…

1 THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:1 - 7)

this is a description of us, of our time, of our world. We should not be sitting here fighting against one another, we need to stand together. Stand together in defense of the traditional family, stand up against abortion, provide for the needs of those who are losing their jobs, fight for our freedoms, stand up for the belief in God and belief in His son, Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer. So we have a few differences, so we use an extra set of scriptures, so does the Catholic church (apocrypha) http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai104.html

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
(New Testament | Matthew 24:7 - 10)

We can be a part of this, we can be proud, heady, highminded, deny the power of God, easily offended, betraying one another, hating one another… we can be a part of all the wickedness, or we can rise above it, celebrate where we agree, support one another, support morals, work together to fight what is going on around us.

49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
(New Testament | Luke 9:49 - 50)

176 pages of bickering. Unbelievable. Let's all go spend our energy on something of greater worth. Shall we?

 

[Waymarker]

..Let me ask, do you practice animal sacrifices in your church? No? but it is in the Bible - so are you saying that the Bible is flip-flopping and doing u-turns?..

If you want to sacrifice animals go ahead but include me out.
The Old T also says kill adulteresses, yet Jesus rescued one from the mob and let her go..
The moral?- God allows us to use our moral judgement in all things, and takes notes on how we do and what choices we make; call it a test if you like-
"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.." (James 1:12)

 

[sojourner]

Does your confidence stem from not believing what the Bible says?

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Matthew 24:24)

I don't think Mormonism was what Matthew had in mind here. I think that Mormons do believe what the Bible says, as much as any of us. They have a different take, and one that I don't agree with. But nonetheless, their faith is real and valid.

As a matter of inquiry, how do you think the first Christians came to believe, when there was no Bible to follow?