Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[sojourner]

For the record, I pat those on the back who make good, well thought out posts without the aid of character assassination, sarcasm and other sophomoric innuendos, Christian or not.

Bad, poorly thought-out posts that reflect character assassination, sarcasm and other sophomoric innuendos (Christian or not) deserve the same kind of responses...

 

[Katzpur]

I hate to butt in here, but I have to know what you mean by the part that I underlined above. Are you saying (and sure seems that way) that it doesn't matter whether or not one becomes LDS? That everyone faces the same odds of spending eternity with God, the Father? That these millions upon millions of people who passed through this world without joining the LDS church will end up in celestial glory with God? Is that is the case, why do the LDS put such an emphasis on missionary workd, etc?

Just asking for clarification, don'tcha know.

Basically, Edward, it doesn't take into account everything that happens between death and the resurrection. Billions will have a change of heart while in the Spirit World. For most Christians, what happens during our relatively short time on Earth determines our fate for eternity. The LDS don't see it that way. To imply that Mormons go to the Celestial Kingdom and everybody else doesn't is simply misleading. Very, very misleading.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Whichever ones God says are required. Temple marriage and performing Baptisms for the dead are not required to go to the Celestial Kingdom.

They are required for eternal life in the presence of Heavenly Father according to prophets of the LDS church.

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (Pearl of Great Price)
Is marriage for time and eternity an ordinance?

Requirements for LDS Eternal Life:

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:
. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.
. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
. We must receive the temple endowment.
. We must be married for time and eternity.
In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to--
. Love and worship God.
. Love our neighbor.
. Repent of our wrongdoings.
. Live the law of chastity.
. Pay honest tithes and offerings.
. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.
. Speak the truth always.
. Obey the Word of Wisdom.
. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
. Have family and individual prayers every day.
. Honor our parents.
. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
. Study the scriptures.
. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.

- Gospel Principles, Exaltation, Chapter 47


"To get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey the commandments of God. The object with me is to obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it" (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 332).

"Understand that temple marriage is essential to your salvation and exaltation." - President Ezra Taft Benson, Ensign, May 1988, p. 51

"Obedience to the sacred covenants made in temples qualifies us for eternal life" - Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, "The Atonement," Ensign, Nov. 1996, 35

"‘No one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory’ (D&C 132:4).
"No one! It matters not how righteous they may have been, how intelligent or how well trained they are. No one will enter this highest glory unless he enters into the covenant, and this means the new and everlasting covenant of marriage." - Spencer W. Kimball, "The Importance of Celestial Marriage," Ensign, Oct. 1979, pp. 5–6.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (Pearl of Great Price)

I don't accept the Book of Mormon to be valid because the LDS teaching above is contrary to the gospel found in the Bible alone. The Book of Mormon changes the gospel of God's grace to one of personal obedience to the law for salvation. According to the Bible, the Mormon gospel leaves a sinner unjustified before God (under the wrath of God - not saved) because "by works of the law no one will be justified" - The Apostle Paul. Of course, this is my understanding of the truth, which has been the Christian gospel for 2,000 years.

The Philippian Jailer Converted

About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bonds were unfastened. When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God. - Acts from the Holy Bible.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. - Romans from the Holy Bible.

Justified by Faith

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. - Gal 3 from the Holy Bible

 

[Watchmen]

They are required for eternal life in the presence of Heavenly Father according to prophets of the LDS church.

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (Pearl of Great Price)
Is marriage for time and eternity an ordinance?

Requirements for LDS Eternal Life:

- Gospel Principles, Exaltation, Chapter 47


"To get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey the commandments of God. The object with me is to obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it" (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 332).

"Understand that temple marriage is essential to your salvation and exaltation." - President Ezra Taft Benson, Ensign, May 1988, p. 51

"Obedience to the sacred covenants made in temples qualifies us for eternal life" - Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, "The Atonement," Ensign, Nov. 1996, 35

"‘No one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory’ (D&C 132:4).
"No one! It matters not how righteous they may have been, how intelligent or how well trained they are. No one will enter this highest glory unless he enters into the covenant, and this means the new and everlasting covenant of marriage." - Spencer W. Kimball, "The Importance of Celestial Marriage," Ensign, Oct. 1979, pp. 5–6.

You're talking about exaltation - the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. A person can still be in God's presense in the Celestial Kingdom without exaltation.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

You're talking about exaltation - the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. A person can still be in God's presense in the Celestial Kingdom without exaltation.

Now that's something I've been curious about. Is there a scripture that says you can be in Heavenly Father's presence without being perfectly clean from the sins of omission? So are you saying that a person can have immortality only and still be in Heavenly Father's presence, but they do not have eternal life?

Obedience to the law of heaven is an essential condition of salvation, and an essential condition in heaven." — Rulon S. Wells, "Conference Report", April 1936, p.39

20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 12:20)

Doctrine & Covenants 78
7 For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.


"So in the celestial kingdom we must be worthy in every point, or we fail to receive the blessing. The kingdom of God must exist in absolute unity. Every law must be obeyed, and no member of the Church can have a place there unless he is in full accord."
Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 3, pp. 26-27 (1960)

 

[Katzpur]

They are required for eternal life in the presence of Heavenly Father according to prophets of the LDS church.

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (Pearl of Great Price)
Is marriage for time and eternity an ordinance?

Requirements for LDS Eternal Life:

- Gospel Principles, Exaltation, Chapter 47


"To get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey the commandments of God. The object with me is to obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it" (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 332).

"Understand that temple marriage is essential to your salvation and exaltation." - President Ezra Taft Benson, Ensign, May 1988, p. 51

"Obedience to the sacred covenants made in temples qualifies us for eternal life" - Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, "The Atonement," Ensign, Nov. 1996, 35

"‘No one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory’ (D&C 132:4).
"No one! It matters not how righteous they may have been, how intelligent or how well trained they are. No one will enter this highest glory unless he enters into the covenant, and this means the new and everlasting covenant of marriage." - Spencer W. Kimball, "The Importance of Celestial Marriage," Ensign, Oct. 1979, pp. 5–6.

All of these ordinances may be done by proxy.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

All of these ordinances may be done by proxy.

Does Mormon theology teach that through proxy, we can help loved ones who died to make it to Heaven? Is this similar to the Catholic teaching of purgatory?

 

[Katzpur]

Which commandments and ordinances are necessary? All of them? Would those include temple marriage, performing baptism for the dead and other uniquely LDS rules?

Exaltation requires baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost and the ordinances of the temple, including marriage for time and all eternity.

Why did Jesus Christ die on the cross for our sins if we can obey the commandments and obtain life eternal w/God the Father? If our works were/are sufficient, then those of Old Testament times could gain eternal life by the law and we would still be under the law and not under grace.

Our works are not sufficient. In and of themselves, they are "filthy rags." There is not one soul who has ever lived whose works could earn him the right to Heaven. But the scriptures say that Jesus Christ is the "author of salvation unto all them that obey Him."

This is where I must disagree. If these were God's ordinances and you have a church that restored the first century church, there would be evidence that these marriages and proxy baptisms were performed in the temple at Jerusalem. There is no such evidence. If eternal marriage was so essential there would be evidence that Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, the twelve apostles, etc. all partook of this ceremony. Again, there is no evidence of this happening in the temple.

One of the main reasons there is no evidence of temple marriage is that this was, as it is today, one of the esoteric teachings of the gospel, that is given only to those who are ready to receive it. It is likely that it was taught to the Apostles during the 40 day period between the time Jesus was resurrected and when He ascended to His Father in Heaven. I could try to find some information on this if you'd like. The scriptures do, however, specifically mention the fact that at least some of the early Christians were performing proxy baptisms on behalf of the deceased.

That is why I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Former-Day Saints.

Which one?

In summary, this makes no sense. One doesn't have to be LDS to go to the celestial kingdom, but one must have these ordinances performed by the LDS because they are the only ones who have the authority. Can I receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands from a Mormon Elder who has authority without being or becoming LDS?

I'd have to agree with this conclusion. I think that Sola'lor may have been thinking in terms of what's happening now and will continue to happen in the Spirit World. I doubt very much that the gospel of Jesus Christ is known as "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" to those who accept it after death. The ordinances will be the same as those we perform. They will have to be performed by someone who holds the proper authority, but I am quite sure that the individual who receives them will not consider himself to be a "Mormon" per se.

 

[Katzpur]

Does Mormon theology teach that through proxy, we can help loved ones who died to make it to Heaven?

Yes.

Is this similar to the Catholic teaching of purgatory?

I suspect that if you were to go back far enough you'd find that the teaching of Purgatory originated with a belief in the redemption of souls in the Spirit World. However, there is little similarity in the doctrine of Purgatory as taught by the Catholic Church today and the doctrine of the Spirit World.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

All of these ordinances may be done by proxy.

We know that, but doing proxy ordinances for those who reject temple marriage isn't going to make them worthy of eternal life.

"‘No one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory’ (D&C 132:4).
"No one! It matters not how righteous they may have been, how intelligent or how well trained they are. No one will enter this highest glory unless he enters into the covenant, and this means the new and everlasting covenant of marriage." - Spencer W. Kimball, "The Importance of Celestial Marriage," Ensign, Oct. 1979, pp. 5–6.

Can a person have immortality only and still be in Heavenly Father's presence? Are there people in the Celestial Kingdom who are less worthy than others?

 

[Katzpur]

We know that, but doing proxy ordinances for those who reject temple marriage isn't going to make them worthy of eternal life.

That's right. It isn't.

Can a person have immortality only and still be in Heavenly Father's presence? Are there people in the Celestial Kingdom who are less worthy than others?

I would think there are a wide range of "worthiness" within the Celestial Kingdom. Jesus said that in His Father's house there were many mansions.

 

[Sola'lor]

I'd have to agree with this conclusion. I think that Sola'lor may have been thinking in terms of what's happening now and will continue to happen in the Spirit World. I doubt very much that the gospel of Jesus Christ is known as "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" to those who accept it after death. The ordinances will be the same as those we perform. They will have to be performed by someone who holds the proper authority, but I am quite sure that the individual who receives them will not consider himself to be a "Mormon" per se.

This is what I was trying to say.

 

[Watchmen]

Now that's something I've been curious about. Is there a scripture that says you can be in Heavenly Father's presence without being perfectly clean from the sins of omission? So are you saying that a person can have immortality only and still be in Heavenly Father's presence, but they do not have eternal life?

Obedience to the law of heaven is an essential condition of salvation, and an essential condition in heaven." — Rulon S. Wells, "Conference Report", April 1936, p.39

20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 12:20)

Doctrine & Covenants 78
7 For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.


"So in the celestial kingdom we must be worthy in every point, or we fail to receive the blessing. The kingdom of God must exist in absolute unity. Every law must be obeyed, and no member of the Church can have a place there unless he is in full accord."
Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 3, pp. 26-27 (1960)

Those in the Celestial Kingdom will be perfectly clean and in God's presense. Those who received the new and everlasting covenant of marriage may enter the highest portion of the Celestial Kingdom and continue progression to become like God (whatever that means - we have nothing OFFICIAL on the subject). Those who did not enter the covenant may be with God, but will not progress.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

That's right. It isn't.

I would think there are a wide range of "worthiness" within the Celestial Kingdom. Jesus said that in His Father's house there were many mansions.

I don’t understand how someone would interpret "many mansions" to mean varying degrees of worthiness.

And I was under the impression, correct me if I’m wrong, that no unclean person could dwell with Heavenly Father. If a person hasn’t attained perfection is he still clean? If he becomes clean can others become cleaner still? This isn’t making sense to me. Are there going to be many people in Heavenly Father’s presence who are only somewhat clean?

Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.
(Pearl of Great Price, Moses 6:57)

Is the following (D&C 76:52) how a person is cleansed?
That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; (Doctrine and Covenants 76:52)

Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.
(Pearl of Great Price, Moses 6:57)

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10.)

"What is the true meaning of this remark? It is that only by obedience to the full law, can the promised blessings come."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)
http://www.ldsliving.com/answer09_23.asp

I'm sorry...I tried several times to fix the font, but I can't do it.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Those in the Celestial Kingdom will be perfectly clean and in God's presense. Those who received the new and everlasting covenant of marriage may enter the highest portion of the Celestial Kingdom and continue progression to become like God (whatever that means - we have nothing OFFICIAL on the subject). Those who did not enter the covenant may be with God, but will not progress.

Which verses say that you don't have to comply with celestial marriage for time and eternity to be with Heavenly Father? How can someone be clean and never attain perfection? How can you be perfectly clean and still not be like Heavenly Father?

 

[Watchmen]

Which verses say that you don't have to comply with celestial marriage for time and eternity to be with Heavenly Father? How can someone be clean and never attain perfection? How can you be perfectly clean and still not be like Heavenly Father?

Doctrine and Covenants 131

Enjoy.


1 In the acelestial glory there are three bheavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the ahighest, a man must enter into this border of the cpriesthood [meaning the new and deverlasting covenant of emarriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an aincrease.

5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of aprophecy means a man’s knowing that he is bsealed up unto ceternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.

6 It is impossible for a man to be asaved in bignorance.

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All aspirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by bpurer eyes;

8 We cannot asee it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all bmatter.

 

[Katzpur]

And I was under the impression, correct me if I’m wrong, that no unclean person could dwell with Heavenly Father. If a person hasn’t attained perfection is he still clean? If he becomes clean can others become cleaner still? This isn’t making sense to me. Are there going to be many people in Heavenly Father’s presence who are only somewhat clean?

Anyone who has accepted Christ's Atonement is forgiven of his sins and is therefore "clean." And there will be plenty of "clean" people who aren't even in the Celestial Kingdom at all. Everyone who, through Christ's Atonement, is made "clean" was equally faithful and obedient to Christ's teachings while on Earth or in the Spirit World. Where there was greater faithfulness, there will be a greater reward. That's about as clear as I can make it. If that doesn't answer your questions, I'm sorry.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Anyone who has accepted Christ's Atonement is forgiven of his sins and is therefore "clean." And there will be plenty of "clean" people who aren't even in the Celestial Kingdom at all. Everyone who, through Christ's Atonement, is made "clean" was equally faithful and obedient to Christ's teachings while on Earth or in the Spirit World. Where there was greater faithfulness, there will be a greater reward. That's about as clear as I can make it. If that doesn't answer your questions, I'm sorry.

The following sounds as if Christ's atonement doesn't quite do it. Are you saying that only faith is necessary?

Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.
(Pearl of Great Price, Moses 6:57)

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Doctrine and Covenants 131

Enjoy.

1 In the acelestial glory there are three bheavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the ahighest, a man must enter into this border of the cpriesthood [meaning the new and deverlasting covenant of emarriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an aincrease.

5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of aprophecy means a man’s knowing that he is bsealed up unto ceternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.

6 It is impossible for a man to be asaved in bignorance.

Thank you very much for refreshing my memory! Since one of the requirements for eternal life is celestial marriage, I suppose those in the lowest heaven or degree are still separated from Heavenly Father, right? He's in the highest. Who knows who gets assigned to that middle heaven in the celestial kingdom? I thought the laws of each kingdom applied to the entire kingdom.

Does verse five refer to the temple ordinance of sealing by the priesthood or is that something LDS can't talk about?

Doctrine and Covenants 132
48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you give any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.
49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee even unto the end of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your father.

If someone is a servant for eternity to more worthy LDS who have their families with them, isn't it like being a lower class citizen? I always believed that those who follow Christ get equal rewards. You know, they're the ones whose works weren't burned because the works were done for Him and the ability to do the works was given by Him.

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. (1 Corinthians 15:10)