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Why don't Theist's admit that there's no evidence for God?

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
..., even if we grant the premises, that there is one and only one cause of the universe does not follow...

Yup.

I'm having a hard time accepting the idea that there can only be one cause to any event or "beginning" of anything.

There's a pile of rubble in the middle of an intersection. It's the debris from a car accident. The accident was caused by two cars colliding. The two cars collided because one guy ran a red light, the other had green but turned yellow and was on the cell phone and didn't pay attention. The guy that ran the red light nodded off because he was tired after working all night. He had to work all night because he needed more money and took an extra shift. The other guy was on the phone because his wife was in the hospital. She was in the hospital because ...

There are obviously two threads of causes and events leading to the crash. Neither one is more or less important or singled out. And each thread of causes/events in turn come from many others. It branches out back in time. Sometimes one cause it producing many outcomes. Sometimes many causes produces one outcome. So the whole "one cause -> one creation" is overly simplistic.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No, not necessarily- only on an indeterministic interpretation of QM (e.g. Copenhagen) ; on a deterministic interpretation, this would not be the case.
For the purposes of undermining the Kalam argument, all there needs to be is doubt. As long as there's some question as to whether the premises are absolutely true, the conclusion of the argument is called into question. In this regard, it's fine to just point out that there isn't consensus on whether premise 1 is true, since it illustrates that premise 1 hasn't been conclusively demonstrated.

... and it needs to be conclusively demonstrated for the argument to work. If it's not, the only conclusion it could possibly reach is that maybe God exists or maybe he doesn't. But we could've said that without Kalam.

And regardless, we don't need to take exception to premise 1 to defeat the KA; premise 2 is far more questionable, as it either relies on a fallacy of composition or an extremely weak a posteriori argument which can, at best, only render this claim slightly probable. Moreoever, even if we grant the premises, that there is one and only one cause of the universe does not follow, nor does it follow that the cause of the universe is God.
I agree entirely. Even if the argument was valid, it wouldn't establish that God exists; it would establish that at least one thing exists in a category of things that would conceivably include gods (but may also include non-god things).
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Let me rephrase: given that even without QM, the statement "1) what ever begins to exist has a cause" is inaccurate and complex systems remain a challenge to classical notions of causality
"Already early in the twentieth century, the deterministic conception of mechanics
was brought into question not only in the realm of quantum theory
but also in relation to the mechanics of classical systems" p. 56
Jaeger, G. (2009). Entanglement, information, and the interpretation of quantum mechanics (The Frontiers Collection). Springer
You mistake me. I'm not saying that causal determinism is ultimately correct, or that apparent breaches of determinism from either classical physics (such as the "escape to infinity" of the velocity of moving objects) or quantum mechanics (for instance, the unpredictability of radioactive decay) can ultimately be adequately resolved- only that the matter is less black and white than the "QM disproves the causal argument" rebuttal suggests. At the very least, it seems the proponent of the causal argument could make a case that Bohmian QM removes at least much of the weirdness of standard QM by determining precise locations and velocities of particles, resorting some semblance of determinism and definiteness to the quantum domain.

And given the technical expertise required to evaluate this question, I think that we can (and should) bracket the concern over whether the premise "whatever begins to exist has a cause" can ultimately be reconciled with apparent violations from QM, since there are other, more obviously fatal, flaws with the KA/causal argument- flaws which do not require legislating between rival scientific hypotheses (which few, if any, non-experts are in a position to properly evaluate anyways).

In other words, we could grant, for the sake of argument, the causal premise, and the conclusion still doesn't follow- that the universe ever "began to exist", that the universe itself (as a collection) is subject to the same rules that govern its constituents (objects in the universe), that any effect, particularly one as complex as the creation of the universe, has one and only one cause, and/or that it is logically impossible for the cause of the universe to not be identical to God, have not been substantiated to any satisfactory degree whatsoever. (ultimately, I think that you're right that such a naïve view of causality as expressed in the causal argument can't stand up to scrutiny- I just think there are easier routes to refuting the KA/CA)
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
At the very least, it seems the proponent of the causal argument could make a case that Bohmian QM removes at least much of the weirdness of standard QM by determining precise locations
Bohmian mechanics is fundamentally nonlocal. There are no precise locations.

I think that we can (and should) bracket the concern over whether the premise "whatever begins to exist has a cause" can ultimately be reconciled with apparent violations from QM, since there are other, more obviously fatal, flaws with the KA/causal argument
I'll grant the second (there are other, more obviously fatal, flaws with the KA/causal argument), but I'm obsessive when it comes to precision. It's my fatal flaw (or will be).


In other words, we could grant
No, I get you and I agree with this. "Even assuming X, it doesn't follow Y..." and it holds true here. As I said, I'm obsessive.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
I agree entirely. Even if the argument was valid, it wouldn't establish that God exists; it would establish that at least one thing exists in a category of things that would conceivably include gods (but may also include non-god things).
Exactly.

And even worse, if the argument is true and God is a cause, then it demotes God from a supernatural source of life and existence into a natural causal agent. Causality is after all (according to the premise) a "natural" thing, not supernatural. So for God to be a cause, God would be a natural entity, and not spiritual. Hence, the argument defeats its own purpose.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Bohmian mechanics is fundamentally nonlocal. There are no precise locations.
As I've remarked before, my (lack of any) technical expertise in mathematics or physics restricts my ability to fully understand a lot of the scholarly material RE quantum mechanics, but everything I've read about Bohmiam mechanics suggests the contrary-

"According to D. Bohm's interpretation of quantum mechanics, a particle always has a well-defined spatial trajectory... According to Bohm's theory, particles have definite positions and velocities at all times." ("Nonlocality in the Expanding Infinite Well", Callender and Weingard, Foundations of Physics Letters, Vol. 11, No. 5, 1998)​

"Bohm here seems to presume that a hidden-variables theory will attempt to restore a picture of particles with definite positions and momenta..." ("On Some Early Objections to Bohm's Theory", Myrvold, International Studies in the Philosophy of Science, Vol. 17, No. 1, 2003)​

You get the idea. This line of argument (that there are defensible deterministic interpretations of QM, and that Bohm's is one such) is also pretty common amongst proponents of the KA/CA (given how common the "QM disproves causality" rebuttal has become).​
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
But it does mean that it doesn't count as evidence of any particular definition of god. It is an utterly meaningless concept - I mean that literally: a concept with no meaning whatsoever. If you want to call that "god", that's up to you, but I don't know why you'd want to.
Some arguments entail specifications of a type of God. That one did not in more than general detail.

For example, you've already ascribed more meaning than exists in that statement by using the pronoun "him".
That is a societal convention not an statement meant to prove anything. I do not think point out hyper literal inaccuracies in common forms of speech a legitimate goal.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"According to D. Bohm's interpretation of quantum mechanics, a particle always has a well-defined spatial trajectory... According to Bohm's theory, particles have definite positions and velocities at all times."

This isn't well-stated. A particle always has a well-defined position. But it's problematic either way because Bohmian mechanics arguably isn't really a mechanics at all:​

"Since Bohmian mechanics is not about measurements but about ontology, namely particles, it has no measurement problem. However, since quantum mechanics does have the measurement problem, one may wonder whether Bohmian mechanics might not have another problem, namely that it is not a correct description of nature." p. 173​





It has no measurement problem because it doesn't deal with empirical results. Only the formalism. As an ontological framework, Bohmian physics isn't "Bohmian mechanics" but something quite different.​



Bohmian mechanics assumes point-particles that are waves (or governed by wave dynamics; how Bohm formulated his theory grew more nuanced over time as well as more philosophical). Bohm takes quantum mechanics and this assumption and says "here's what we can say." The problem is that this doesn't really say much of anything and Bohm knew this. Those who follow Bohm know this:​

"Bohmian mechanics is about particles guided by a wave. This is new, but not revolutionary physics. This chapter will now present a paradigm shift. It is about how nature is, or better, it is about how any theory which aims at a correct description of nature must be. Any such theory must be nonlocal. We do not attempt to define nonlocality...but simply take it pragmatically as meaning that the theory contains action at a distance in the true meaning of the words, i.e., faster than light action between spacelike separated events."​





Bohmian mechanics is deterministic only in the sense that it takes as given particles exist and then says the deterministic wave equations which don't describe particles (but waves) do describe particles in ways that we don't know and that are indeterministic in unknown senses:​

"Nevertheless, independently of the specific proposals that we have made here, the essential point with regard to the question of mechanism is that the fluctuations should come from qualitatively new kinds of factors existing in a new domain.​

Within the new domain described above, we would naturally expect that new kinds of laws would operate, which may include new kinds of causal laws as well as new kinds of laws of chance. Of course, if one were now to make the assumption that these new laws would surely be nothing more than purely causal laws, one would then fall back into deterministic mechanism, while the similar assumption that they were surely nothing more than laws of probability would throw one back into indeterministic mechanism. On-the other hand, we have in the proposals made in this chapter avoided both these dogmatic and arbitrary extremes, since we have considered, as the situation demanded, the possibility that there are new features to the causal laws (a “quantum force” not appearing at higher levels) as well as to the laws of chance (random fluctuations originating in the sub-quantum mechanical level)"​







"sub-quantum mechanical level" == "hidden variables". But Bohm regards it as fundamentally "hidden." In fact, Bohm is critical of mechanics itself (he calls it unscientific).​



You might actually enjoy his book, as it is short on technicalities and far more philosophical: Causality and Chance in Modern Physics


"Bohm here seems to presume that a hidden-variables theory will attempt to restore a picture of particles with definite positions and momenta..."



Bohm-proponents, from Bell to P. T.I. Pylkkänen, have universally recognized that his theory is nonlocal. If particles exist, then they must be (by definition) defined by precise positions. This cannot explain empirical results. Ergo, something determines their position which does not obey any laws we know of and cannot. Perhaps it's faster-than-light-travel, perhaps it's incoming waves, perhaps it's conscious observation, perhaps it is that all matter is both wave and particle all the time (and thus is always and forever both deterministic and indeterministic; on this and how it features centrally in Bohm's interpretation as well as in its relevance today see Mind, Matter, and the Implicate Order by Pylkkänen). But the point is that formally, Bohmian mechanics is simply a spin-off of the Copenhagen interpretation in which the collapse of the state vector is removed but not really replaced, and classical physics doesn't emerge from it. It describes a quantum realm in which particles are defined locally in ways that cannot be used to recover the world we experience, our observations, or anything at all (hence the "it's not about measurement" bit, which is essentially equivalent to saying it isn't physics). As a conceptual model, we have something else altogether.



And despite the fact that most critiques of (and supportive sentiments of) Bohmian mechanics stem from this idea that the Bohm interpretation (or Boglie-Bohm interpretation) is deterministic, Bohm doesn't exactly make it difficult to realize that his interpretation is wholly, completely, and clearly not a deterministic one:


"So, in terms of this notion, the idea of a separately and independently existent particle is seen to be, at best, an abstraction furnishing a valid approximation only in a certain limited domain. Ultimately, the entire universe (with all its ‘particles’, including those constituting human beings, their laboratories, observing instruments, etc.) has to be understood as a single undivided whole, in which analysis into separately and independently existent parts has no fundamental status." p. 221



Bohm's Wholeness and the Implicate Order (Routledge; 1980)


You get the idea.


Yes. I've just never understood it's prevalence. Here's a guy who cites everybody from von Mises to Piaget, who has written accessible books and whose essays have been put together by others (if memory serves, with a preface by the Dalia Lama), and who has much more potential to be misunderstood by mystics and other esoteric approaches to reality than most "quantum mysticism" published for mainstream readers, yet a few papers and a textbook have so dominated how Bohm is understood. His work on causation was written in '57. The quote immediately above is from a book published in 1980. It's not like the guy was keeping himself quiet. It's just that he had a deep and abiding interest in philosophy of a type that used to define physics and sciences in general yet has faded almost everywhere (unfortunately). So much of what he wrote is ignored. Your 2nd quote, for example, is almost identical to a line in one of the two papers by Bohm that are generally cited in the physics literature, "A Suggested Interpretation of the Quantum Theory in Terms of "Hidden" Variables. II". Yet it contains a subtle distortion: "In our interpretation, however, we assert that the at present "hidden" precisely definable particle positions and momenta determine the results of each individual measurement process". Given that Bohm refers in this same paper to "forces [that] may be said to transmit uncontrollable disturbances instantaneously from one particle to another" and his repeated references to a "conceptual model", why it is not understood that his physical interpretation of "particles" is simply to assume they exist (and therefore necessarily have a position, even if it is "continuously varying", quantifiable only to a limited degree, and necessarily located in space only via superluminal forces which determine it's dynamics) is beyond me.





and that Bohm's is one such
is also pretty common amongst proponents of the KA/CA




In my experience, most proponents of the KA/CA arguments only know it through distilled, simplified versions (usually supplied thanks to Craig, who apparently doesn't mind simplifying his own work to be indefensible if it means we have legions of theists who are supplied with half-baked versions of Craig's own arguments and his abuse to Plantiga's). You're the first I've read here who defended classical causality by referencing so-called deterministic interpretations of QM.​



In any event, it doesn't really matter as you aren't defending the proposition so much as saying that it doesn't matter even if it were true.​
 
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philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
Some arguments entail specifications of a type of God. That one did not in more than general detail.
Basically you're taking a lack of definition of anything and calling it "God" - such a definition is totally unusable. So where's your train of logic that takes the general detail and turns it into your specific God?

That is a societal convention not an statement meant to prove anything. I do not think point out hyper literal inaccuracies in common forms of speech a legitimate goal.
On the contrary: it shows limited thinking with a preconceived definition that is substituting for a logical train of thought. It's the societal convention for your particular take on "God", a way of circumventing the step from generic to specific using faith & assumption and then having the hypocrisy to claim some kind of scientific credence for your particular flavour of deity.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Basically you're taking a lack of definition of anything and calling it "God" - such a definition is totally unusable. So where's your train of logic that takes the general detail and turns it into your specific God?
I think you are confusing me with the person that originally posted the definition I commented on. In my train of thought I take the best model of reality and compare that to what the Bible claims. God is not definition-less and therefore can be fit into any hole found. He has been defined in exhaustive terms for 5000 years. I am not free to force fit God into any gap I find. His definition must fit as well. For something to create time it must be independent of time. To create matter it must be independent of matter. Same with space. It must also be a necessary being and non-contingent on anything. It must be at least sufficiently powerful, intelligent, and personal. I find the characteristics given for God 5000 years ago an exact match for what philosophy suggests must have created the universe. If the Biblical God was non-omnipotent like the Greek God's, not independent from matter like the Roman God's, non-personal like deistic God's he could not be forced into the first cause gap. Instead of ambiguousness that you suggest I have perfect convergent confirmation. However even given that I do not claim it is proven God exists but just that faith is rational and logical.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Except that God has changed over time. This is seen in the Bible as it moves from a God who was very much involved in the lives of the Israelites to one who was more handsoff. There's evidence to show that Yahweh as mentioned in the Old Testament was part of a pantheon of Gods, that other Gods did exist and that there wasn't one supreme God. Even Genesis reads as "Let US create man in OUR Image".
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
I think you are confusing me with the person that originally posted the definition I commented on.
I wasn't confusing you, just assuming that from your reply you followed the same train of thought.

In my train of thought I take the best model of reality and compare that to what the Bible claims. God is not definition-less and therefore can be fit into any hole found.
I assume you mean "cannot"

Instead of ambiguousness that you suggest I have perfect convergent confirmation.
No, that's you taking your preconceived notion and thinking "oh, that fits" when what it fits with is totally undefined, so incapable of contradicting anything. That's not "convergent confirmation" in anywhere except your own head.

Going back to the point I was making earlier: defining that which we do not and cannot ever know anything about (whatever was around at or before the Big Bang) as "god" and then claiming it is confirmation of your particular flavour of deity is at best wishful thinking.

However even given that I do not claim it is proven God exists but just that faith is rational and logical.
Seems to me it comes closer to proving that your idea of "rational and logical" is not the same as mine.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I wasn't confusing you, just assuming that from your reply you followed the same train of thought.
In my view some arguments sustain characteristically conclusions, other do not in great detail, but all posit some level of characteristic revelations.


I assume you mean "cannot"
Yep, if grammar was the judge I would not compete. I hate grammar and am no good at it.

No, that's you taking your preconceived notion and thinking "oh, that fits" when what it fits with is totally undefined, so incapable of contradicting anything. That's not "convergent confirmation" in anywhere except your own head.
Claiming that whatever created space is beyond or transcends space is a logical deduction consistent with everything known. What am I preconceiving. The cosmological argument as it currently exists has been reasonable since the Greeks existed. There is nothing contrived about it.


Going back to the point I was making earlier: defining that which we do not and cannot ever know anything about (whatever was around at or before the Big Bang) as "god" and then claiming it is confirmation of your particular flavour of deity is at best wishful thinking.
If the Bible is accurate I have 750,000 words to derive characteristics of God. I have very very good reasons to believe it is true so I do have much to evaluate God by.


Seems to me it comes closer to proving that your idea of "rational and logical" is not the same as mine.
Great scholars from every great thinking culture since the Greeks subscribed to what I have claimed is reasonable including today. I am in good company.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Except that God has changed over time. This is seen in the Bible as it moves from a God who was very much involved in the lives of the Israelites to one who was more handsoff. There's evidence to show that Yahweh as mentioned in the Old Testament was part of a pantheon of Gods, that other Gods did exist and that there wasn't one supreme God. Even Genesis reads as "Let US create man in OUR Image".
That is because God was attempting to set up a cultural, political, and social "state" system by which to use as a conduit for his greatest revelation. That need has passed. God's kingdom is strictly spiritual since Jesus came and he no longer has any need to involve himself in general in political institutions. God's purposes evolve and our capacity to relate to him evolves. His nature does not.
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
If the Bible is accurate I have 750,000 words to derive characteristics of God. I have very very good reasons to believe it is true so I do have much to evaluate God by.
If.
..the problem is, you have no way of knowing. There is so much in the bible which is evident codswallop by any rational standard that taking a bit such as a definition of God which has no reference point in anything is no guarantee of accuracy.

Then comparing that definition of God against something undefined and undefinable and claiming correspondence is a nonsense.

I look at the god in the bible and see something that seems so obviously invented by mankind that I find it almost impossible to credit that anybody could believe in it. I dare say I could use the great "I don't know" many billions of years ago to "prove" this, but it would be equally meaningless.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
If.
..the problem is, you have no way of knowing. There is so much in the bible which is evident codswallop by any rational standard that taking a bit such as a definition of God which has no reference point in anything is no guarantee of accuracy.
You are right I have no objective way to know. I have experienced God and so have subjective proof but that is not suited to a debate. You however have no proof we are not brains in a vat being fed what we perceive. As Descartes said the only thing that is known is that we think. We both used evidence and faith to determine beliefs. Why are only the Christians those who will admit this? Why are only Christian claims that must meet a burden that only your have, proof?

Then comparing that definition of God against something undefined and undefinable and claiming correspondence is a nonsense.
I have no idea what you mean. I am making an argument to justifiable for faith. I am not making an argument to provable fact. The best historical, theological, and most of what claims are left of every type can only be made to intellectual permissibility. Why is the claim of multi-universes consider valid for science when it is 100% faith based on no evidence but mine are not even judged adequate for faith?


I look at the god in the bible and see something that seems so obviously invented by mankind that I find it almost impossible to credit that anybody could believe in it. I dare say I could use the great "I don't know" many billions of years ago to "prove" this, but it would be equally meaningless.
There is precious little in core doctrine that bears any resemblance to the way humans commonly think. Is Christ's forgiveness of those who were killing him at the time normal? We value revenge to such a level it exists as a form of entertainment. I find your statement one of the most wrong I have seen used in opposition to the Biblical God. Is Paul's admission of the greatest conceivable faults (or Peter's, or most Biblical author's) a common human notion or is Obama's desire to kill hundreds and spend billion to cover up his mistake of drawing a line in the sand concerning Israel more common in human history. Pride marks human kind. Humility marks Christ and the apostles. Paul said he was chief of sinners, we would not admit the most obvious wrong even with proof unless forced most times.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
You are right I have no objective way to know. I have experienced God and so have subjective proof but that is not suited to a debate. You however have no proof we are not brains in a vat being fed what we perceive. As Descartes said the only thing that is known is that we think. We both used evidence and faith to determine beliefs. Why are only the Christians those who will admit this? Why are only Christian claims that must meet a burden that only your have, proof?

Really? How have you "experienced" God? How do you know it was God? How do you know it wasn't the "devil" of another pantheon just messing with you, trying to keep you from accepting the "one true god"? Certainly it isn't only Christians who bear that burden, all theists do. In fact, all people do about any and all beliefs they hold for which they can provide no evidence or logical debate.

And yes, there are logical arguments against the whole brain in a vat thing. The whole Matrix argument is absurd on it's face.
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
You are right I have no objective way to know. I have experienced God and so have subjective proof but that is not suited to a debate.
Given that people who have "experienced God" always seem to have that experience in their own head rather than in anything testable in the material world, at what point do you start thinking that that's where God resides?

You however have no proof we are not brains in a vat being fed what we perceive.
If the life we perceive is a simulation, it's a remarkably good one. When a huge dialog appears in the sky saying "Earth v1.0 has encountered an error and needs to restart", then we'll know.

As Descartes said the only thing that is known is that we think. We both used evidence and faith to determine beliefs. Why are only the Christians those who will admit this? Why are only Christian claims that must meet a burden that only your have, proof?
You say "we both used evidence and faith to determine beliefs." - I think this is the core of the problem, that you really don't see the difference between things you believe because of faith, and the best explanations science can come up with for observed data. Biggest difference: if a better explanation comes along, I (along with "science") will change my mind. But it needs to be a better explanation.

I have no idea what you mean. I am making an argument to justifiable for faith. I am not making an argument to provable fact.
"Justifiable for faith"=what, exactly?
..seems to me that it means "what I want to believe, without any supporting evidence or even in the face of what be disproof"

The best historical, theological, and most of what claims are left of every type can only be made to intellectual permissibility. Why is the claim of multi-universes consider valid for science when it is 100% faith based on no evidence but mine are not even judged adequate for faith?
Strawman: nobody takes the concept of multiple universes as anything other than a flight of fancy. Nobody is claiming it as scientific fact. It is valid as a thought experiment, even a hypothesis if the physics of a multiple universe meant that effects in nearby ones were measurable here.

There is precious little in core doctrine that bears any resemblance to the way humans commonly think. Is Christ's forgiveness of those who were killing him at the time normal? We value revenge to such a level it exists as a form of entertainment. I find your statement one of the most wrong I have seen used in opposition to the Biblical God. Is Paul's admission of the greatest conceivable faults (or Peter's, or most Biblical author's) a common human notion or is Obama's desire to kill hundreds and spend billion to cover up his mistake of drawing a line in the sand concerning Israel more common in human history. Pride marks human kind. Humility marks Christ and the apostles. Paul said he was chief of sinners, we would not admit the most obvious wrong even with proof unless forced most times.
:facepalm:
People showing atypical behaviour is no proof of any kind of deity whatsoever: there has always been a range of human behaviour, from the good (I hesitate to use the word "saintly", you might misconstrue) to the vicious and nasty.

Look instead at the properties of the god people have invented: depending on who's writing about him, he's either all-powerful or can be wrestled to the ground; he's either loving or psychopathic; he hates homosexuality (why would god care about that kind of thing? Humans obviously do, but why should a god?); he seems to have a whole load of very human insecurities. This is humanity investing all their foibles, fears and desires in a god that later on morphs into something different.

Have you ever asked yourself why the God of the Old Testament is so different to the one in the New? Has God himself changed, or is it what people want from a god that has changed so he's given a whole new set of properties?
 

underthesun

Terrible with Titles
I hope no one minds, but I'm stripping away the Abrahamic-tint to the question, because I don't want to answer just for those of the Abrahamic faiths.

I think that theists (in general!) don't 'admit' that they have no evidence for their beliefs because... well, they do have evidence for their beliefs. Evidence is simply grounds for a belief, after all, or an indication or sign of some sort. What one considers to be evidence might not hold up to another's standard of evidence, but that's besides the point. If one has a belief, why would they argue that they don't have evidence? Why would they argue that they don't have grounds for their belief? ...That would make them not have their belief in the first place, wouldn't it?

But in a less theory-based answer, I think that the real question is why do some theists feel the need to argue as if they have conclusive proof that their religion is correct not just for themselves, but for all. That is something that really and truly doesn't exist. One can experience something or feel something that is sufficient evidence for said individual to hold his/her beliefs, and that's grand. That works for them. But can they try and argue that should matter to others? Eh, probably not.

Personally, I'm a panentheist, and I know my path is right for me without any doubt in my mind. With everything I've experienced, with everything I feel, and with everything I know, I have plenty of evidence to support my beliefs. I don't know, maybe it's because I personally believe that everyone's chosen path can be perfectly correct for them, but I've never felt the need to try and use my own evidence to convince another individual.​
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Really? How have you "experienced" God? How do you know it was God? How do you know it wasn't the "devil" of another pantheon just messing with you, trying to keep you from accepting the "one true god"? Certainly it isn't only Christians who bear that burden, all theists do. In fact, all people do about any and all beliefs they hold for which they can provide no evidence or logical debate.
To start of with I am the world's leading expert on me. I know what I experienced and you do not. Just that alone would make any betting man far wiser to go with my claims than your apparent problems with them. However let me add that I was using the roadmap the Gospels laid out, I had no knowledge base to expect anything that occurred, I received exactly what they said I later verified after the fact. I had never heard "born again" yet for three days that was the only word I used in my head to describe the experience I was still in shock from. It instantly did many things I had struggled and failed to do for years without any effort or struggle on my part, others (mostly non-Christians) noticed the change in my personality even without my mentioning a single thing about anything faith related. I have a feeling any evidence I give to validate what I claimed will be countered by your desire that what I claimed to be false. I had no idea what salvation was supposed to be but in every single detail learned over the course of years of private study it matched exactly what the Bible said. If you can demonstrate sincerity instead of what I perceive as hostility I would spend as much time as necessary to state the depth of detail involved in my experience and the years of self and Biblical verifications I mandated for my own satisfaction and doubts.

And yes, there are logical arguments against the whole brain in a vat thing. The whole Matrix argument is absurd on it's face.
Since Descartes supported a version of the I think, I am, as being the only thing certain then maybe instead of telling me arguments existed which were not provided you could tell me why your credentials inspire that confidence in comparison to his.
 
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