Why don't we admit the fault of victims?

[Sunstone]

Responsibility and moral responsibility are two different things. But almost everyone conflates them.

If I'm the victim of a crime, I bear no moral responsibility for it, although I might have avoided it had I acted more responsibly.

 

[Penumbra]

I'm just not sure what any of this has to do with the post of mine you quoted.

Which post of yours? The one it was quoting and directly in response to?

You said you see little evidence that the thread is about victim blaming, and implied that I'm painting risk mitigation as victim blaming.

I responded by highlighting aspects of the thread, including the very title, that do appear to me to be victim blaming. I entirely disagree with the notion that there is any worrying tendency to completely absolve targets of contributing to crimes. And I clarified my main point that victim blaming and risk mitigation are two totally different things; not that I'm trying to paint risk mitigation as victim blaming.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Just for the records, I never blamed the victim in that old thread!

My point was that, out of concern to try to prevent future misfortune, maybe the victim could take some precautions. This is a matter of crimes, not something simple, so anything suggested, no matter what, should be at least considered before bashing!

I guess some of my examples were wrong too, and I apologies if they caused any offense!

Yet, I received some inappropriate responses that seem to still not be deleted even after reporting it!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Precautions have already been discussed repeatedly by those involved in victim advocacy groups who with to minimize risks for future potential targets.

The comments in this thread that ignore what rape crisis centers have been doing for decades have been more focused on what women should be doing or not doing.

I find some (not all) of the advice falls back into the cultural mindset that its more comfortable for society to have some control on women in particular while looking the other way when it comes to the rapist himself or herself.

 

[Revoltingest]

Precautions have already been discussed repeatedly by those involved in victim advocacy groups who with to minimize risks for future potential targets.
The comments in this thread that ignore what rape crisis centers have been doing for decades have been more focused on what women should be doing or not doing.
I find some (not all) of the advice falls back into the cultural mindset that its more comfortable for society to have some control on women in particular while looking the other way when it comes to the rapist himself or herself.

That's one perspective I can't argue against.
But we can all agree that victims need help after the assault,
& non-victims can minimize the risk of ever becoming victims.
People will each address what calls to'm.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Precautions have already been discussed repeatedly by those involved in victim advocacy groups who with to minimize risks for future potential targets.

The comments in this thread that ignore what rape crisis centers have been doing for decades have been more focused on what women should be doing or not doing.

I find some (not all) of the advice falls back into the cultural mindset that its more comfortable for society to have some control on women in particular while looking the other way when it comes to the rapist himself or herself.

I know!

I was talking about my past posts only!

I agree with you that we kinda kept talking about the victim only, but what else can we do as civilians sharing discussions in forums, being expected to be victims, except to worrying about and advising each other?

If I was in position to do some or say some about the rapists that would make a difference, I'd have done it with elaboration!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I know!

I was talking about my past posts only!

I agree with you that we kinda kept talking about the victim only, but what else can we do as civilians sharing discussions in forums, being expected to be victims, except to worrying about and advising each other?

If I was in position to do some or say some about the rapists that would make a difference, I'd have done it with elaboration!

No worries.

I find it interesting that when it comes to discussing victims of rape as a topic surrounding awareness of impact on the victim...I see a pushing to recognize male victims of rape (which I already do), that it happens as much to males, that male children are affected much more than what is discussed typically.

I do discuss male victims of rape, and find it a serious issue.

But when it comes to fault, risk, blame, any of these words that are brought up, suddenly the male victim becomes invisible, and we suddenly bring up what women need to wear, how women need to take self-defense, if women need to carry a rape whistle, if women should be more wary of how much they drink, and so on and so on and so on.

If we're talking risk mitigation, for fellow male victim advocates, why is everyone suddenly silent on what men can do to make sure they don't get raped, either?

 

[columbus]

that it happens as much to males,

No it doesn't. I'm not saying it never happens, there are few absolutes when it comes to human sexual behavior. But outside of prison the likely hood of a male being raped by assault is tiny. I'd bet that there are 20 guys who fantasize about being "taken" for every one who is.

Women face a whole different level of risk. From armed home intruders to parking lot assaults to step-family, persons of boobage have problems that penile folks don't have.

Tom

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No it doesn't. I'm not saying it never happens, there are few absolutes when it comes to human sexual behavior. But outside of prison the likely hood of a male being raped by assault is tiny. I'd bet that there are 20 guys who fantasize about being "taken" for every one who is.

Women face a whole different level of risk. From armed home intruders to parking lot assaults to step-family, persons of boobage have problems that penile folks don't have.

Tom

Not saying there isn't a disparity. I advocate for male victims of rape, in spite of the difference in frequency.

But what I'm saying is, why are male victims of violence suddenly invisible when it comes to lessening risk? But then they become visible again when the topic is brought up about how women are male targets?

Take the Isla Vista massacre, for example. When the subject of misogyny is brought up, the responses are flooded with saying more men were killed than women, that women don't pay attention to how often men are victimized, that misandry is a problem, and that men are targeted and raped too.

Then discussions like this one is mentioned. Suddenly, males aren't victims. Women need to take more responsibility. Women shouldn't be ignoring their drinks. Women shouldn't drink at frat parties.

I'm asking why the male victims are only mentioned in some arguments, but not here?

 

[Revoltingest]

Not saying there isn't a disparity. I advocate for male victims of rape, in spite of the difference in frequency.

But what I'm saying is, why are male victims of violence suddenly invisible when it comes to lessening risk?

Men tend to think they're (we're?) invulnerable....except about prison.

 

[Smart_Guy]

No worries.

I find it interesting that when it comes to discussing victims of rape as a topic surrounding awareness of impact on the victim...I see a pushing to recognize male victims of rape (which I already do), that it happens as much to males, that male children are affected much more than what is discussed typically.

I do discuss male victims of rape, and find it a serious issue.

But when it comes to fault, risk, blame, any of these words that are brought up, suddenly the male victim becomes invisible, and we suddenly bring up what women need to wear, how women need to take self-defense, if women need to carry a rape whistle, if women should be more wary of how much they drink, and so on and so on and so on.

If we're talking risk mitigation, for fellow male victim advocates, why is everyone suddenly silent on what men can do to make sure they don't get raped, either?

I understand your point ma'am!

The reason why I talked about female victims was because I was familiar with it more as the norm in rape cases. I could have been wrong in this "norm" thought tho, I admit!

Besides, advising and worrying about women first before men only means that I think of them in high regards and that I'm not favoring the gender of my own. I'd feel bad if my father gets hurt for example, but I'd feel much worse if my mother gets hurt. Those are my feelings!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Men tend to think they're (we're?) invulnerable....except about prison.

That's a problem.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's a problem.

Yes, & I don't know the extent of the problem.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This thread is in many respects an extension of this one, only the intent here is to consider perpetrators and targets of crimes more broadly. In that thread, I'm noticing a worrying tendency for some to to completely absolve targets of crimes of any contribution to the event. Although I suspect some of this is due to choice of words and semantics, it is very concerning to me that people are able to ignore causal variables simply because they are centered on the victim of a crime.

Being a target of a crime does not magically erase the fact that aspects of that person's behavior or personality contributed to the situation. Suggesting so is unscientific, unwise, and potentially downright dangerous. It nullifies our ability to conduct an impartial, objective risk analysis of crime and its causes, and in particular it won't allow us to develop ways that we can protect ourselves from becoming targets. After all, if we can't bother to acknowledge how we, as targets, contributed to the situation, we're going to be blind to how we can change our behavior to reduce our risk. We need to take responsibility for ourselves too, not just engage in rubbish finger-pointing exercises.

Thoughts?

Growing up, my parents had one of those "Club" steering wheel locks for their car. When I was in my early teens, a news magazine show (20/20, IIRC) had a story where a reformed car thief showed how easy it was to get past one by cutting through the steering wheel with a hacksaw.

I told my Dad about this. He kept using his Club anyway. I asked him why, since a thief with the right tools could get past it in about 10 seconds. He pointed out that locks and anti-theft systems aren't about making it impossible to steal the car, since any system could be thwarted by a thief eventually. Instead, they're about making our car less appealing than the next car in the parking lot.

IMO, most measures that a victim can do are like that: they don't prevent crime; they just change the crime a bit so that the victim is someone else.

... and that's why we don't say that the victim is at fault.

 

[Alceste]

Growing up, my parents had one of those "Club" steering wheel locks for their car. When I was in my early teens, a news magazine show (20/20, IIRC) had a story where a reformed car thief showed how easy it was to get past one by cutting through the steering wheel with a hacksaw.

I told my Dad about this. He kept using his Club anyway. I asked him why, since a thief with the right tools could get past it in about 10 seconds. He pointed out that locks and anti-theft systems aren't about making it impossible to steal the car, since any system could be thwarted by a thief eventually. Instead, they're about making our car less appealing than the next car in the parking lot.

IMO, most measures that a victim can do are like that: they don't prevent crime; they just change the crime a bit so that the victim is someone else.

... and that's why we don't say that the victim is at fault.

Exactly. If the aim is to reduce the overall number of assaults in our society (and it should be), discussing measures to lower or personal risk are pointless, since the perpetrator will just commit their crimes anyway, but on somebody else who looks like an easier target.

So I think we need to focus on the root causes of crime, like poverty, a culture of entitlement, social norms that pressure men to be aggressive and women to be meek, and a deeply ineffective mental health system that totally ignores psychological abnormalities and anger management issues in most cases until after the damage is done.

Of course it's still wise to take steps that reduce one's personal risk, but especially regarding the rape of women by men, the most common suggested steps, like wearing modest clothing, staying away from alcohol and never going anywhere alone, are both fantastically oppressive and empirically unsubstantiated. No men take these specific steps to reduce their risk of sexual assault, but some men still seem to think it's reasonable to impose these restrictions on women. Since both men and women are sometimes sexually assaulted, I find this glaring double standard deeply irrational.

 

[columbus]

No men take these specific steps to reduce their risk of sexual assault, but some men still seem to think it's reasonable to impose these restrictions on women.

This isn't true. I've gone skinny dipping in mixed company. But I also know guys who have never been outside without long pants. Not even swimming.

The reason you are wrong is because you keep making absolute statements that are demonstrably wrong.

Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No men take these specific steps to reduce their risk of sexual assault, but some men still seem to think it's reasonable to impose these restrictions on women. Since both men and women are sometimes sexually assaulted, I find this glaring double standard deeply irrational.

FWIW, I stopped taking the bus at 3:00 a.m. alone in bad neighbourhoods in Toronto after one night when a guy tried to tell me (unprompted) that I should really go to Montreal if I was interested in doing porn, then got off at the same stop as me and followed me home.

I tend to wear long pants even in the middle of summer... not out of modesty, but because I got used to it while doing race marshalling. We have to wear long pants, long sleeves, and work gloves even in the middle of summer, and I worry that if I get used to wearing shorts in the heat, I'll be uncomfortable when I have to wear long pants. My girlfriend thinks I'm weird for doing this.

 

[CMike]

Last I checked, victims don't normally ask to be victims.

Sometimes they do.

 

[idav]

Growing up, my parents had one of those "Club" steering wheel locks for their car. When I was in my early teens, a news magazine show (20/20, IIRC) had a story where a reformed car thief showed how easy it was to get past one by cutting through the steering wheel with a hacksaw.

I told my Dad about this. He kept using his Club anyway. I asked him why, since a thief with the right tools could get past it in about 10 seconds. He pointed out that locks and anti-theft systems aren't about making it impossible to steal the car, since any system could be thwarted by a thief eventually. Instead, they're about making our car less appealing than the next car in the parking lot.

IMO, most measures that a victim can do are like that: they don't prevent crime; they just change the crime a bit so that the victim is someone else.

... and that's why we don't say that the victim is at fault.

Yes and the things we do might thwart a crime like carrying around mace. We aren't going to ask to be attacked and maybe other things would make it so a crime didn't occur but the victim isn't at fault for the crime happening just cause circumstances made it so.

 

[Willamena]

Sometimes they do.

What do you mean?