Why don't we admit the fault of victims?

[Nymphs]

Yeah, stay out of the ghetto

Uh, you do know that murders happen outside the ghetto, right?

 

[columbus]

Uh, you do know that murders happen outside the ghetto, right?

You do realize that murders are far more common there, right?

Tom

 

[Nymphs]

You do realize that murders are far more common there, right?

Tom

Could you please cite a source on this? Thank you!

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Could you please cite a source on this? Thank you!

You need a source for that before you're willing to believe it? Do you ever watch the news? Do gang violence and drug related murders ring a bell? What about armed-robbery? Do you think all that stuff happens on the nice side of town

 

[Nymphs]

You need a source for that before you're willing to believe it?

No, but I want a source to confirm the data. People claim a lot of things, it doesn't always make them true.

Do you ever watch the news?

I do. Your point?

Do gang violence and drug related murders ring a bell?

Yes.

What about armed-robbery?

It happens.

Do you think all that stuff happens on the nice side of town

It can happen anywhere, it isn't relegated to the 'ghetto' Like I said, I'd like to see an actual study or link to confirm what the poster is saying.

 

[Planets and the Sun]

The answer to this question about victims and fault is very simple. Victims have rights. They have right to walk in bad neightborhoods late at night flaunting their bling. They have the right to dress like prostitutes in the sight of pervs. Those rights never change and they certainly don't justify a crime being committed against them. And yet the fact remains that human beings are subject to certain temptations and there exists at least a chance that if a temptation didn't exist perhaps a person wouldn't have commited a particular crime. Just because one has the right to do something doesn't mean it's wise to exercise that right. To apply this to rape, let's say a woman who ends up violated went out that night in very revealing cloths. The man still has to make a decision in his heart to lust after her. Nothing is forcing him to start scanning over her curves as he is inflamed with desire in his heart. That guilt lays solely on him. Regardless of how the woman dresses that decision is always on him, but the scantily clad outfit makes it a little easier for him to choose lustful thoughts over pure ones. To blame the victim for rape is to insult men because it's saying that they are mindless animals subject only to their instincts. People get in an uproar about this issue when the word "fault" is thrown around in regard to victims. Victims of crimes are often guilty of unwise actions. I was the victim of a theft not too long ago. Nothing I did made me a guilty party in that theft however I did have a couple of the thugs, knowing they were thugs, in my house before it happened which gave him the opportunity to scope out some stuff they wanted. Again I'm not guilty of theft but I didn't do everything in my power to protect myself. I was guilty of being unwise

None of this changes the fact that there are many instances of rape that have nothing to do with revealing clothes. Situations where people were raped when they were just wearing jeans and a t-shirt (like most of the population where I live does on a daily basis if you ask me), children being raped, and so forth. What you're saying amounts to saying that people, especially women, should never leave the house (and live alone in a locked fort) because otherwise someone may have the temptation to rape them.

Being unwise doesn't mean it's your fault. Not giving in to the temptation of raping or murdering someone is not that difficult, if it's so difficult for someone they should seek help immediately. It just stems from a sense of entitlement and it's not the victim's fault in any way that a criminal doesn't get the notion that other people are human beings also.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

None of this changes the fact that there are many instances of rape that have nothing to do with revealing clothes. Situations where people were raped when they were just wearing jeans and a t-shirt (like most of the population where I live does on a daily basis if you ask me), children being raped, and so forth. What you're saying amounts to saying that people, especially women, should never leave the house (and live alone in a locked fort) because otherwise someone may have the temptation to rape them.

Being unwise doesn't mean it's your fault. Not giving in to the temptation of raping or murdering someone is not that difficult, if it's so difficult for someone they should seek help immediately. It just stems from a sense of entitlement and it's not the victim's fault in any way that a criminal doesn't get the notion that other people are human beings also.

Agreed. And I might add: Entitlement coupled with dehumanizing the target.

The vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults are committed by a person the victim knows and/or trusts. But, that fact always seems to be glossed over...

 

[-Peacemaker-]

What you're saying amounts to saying that people, especially women, should never leave the house (and live alone in a locked fort) because otherwise someone may have the temptation to rape them.

That's unrealistic and excessive but I do think that living with a defensive mindset is the only prudent way to be given the twisted human beings we share the planet with.

 

[Planets and the Sun]

That's unrealistic and excessive but I do think that living with a defensive mindset is the only prudent way to be given the twisted human beings we share the planet with.

That's entirely different from saying that the victims have any fault.

Living with a defensive mindset can help you run less risks but that's not entirely realistic. Children living with abusive parents are very often unable to get the help they need or defend themselves. You can have a lock on your door and lock it every night but someone can still break in, especially if you can't afford a top-range lock. You can think you're safe at work or at school until someone comes in and shoots everyone. You can ride public transportation to work until a terrorist attack happens.

A woman can be covered from head to toe and still be raped, like I mentioned in my other post, many situations of rape do not happen when the person is walking around in "revealing" clothes. A young girl being raped by a relative may be unable to do much about it, same as a wife being raped by her husband, a woman being raped by a group who outnumbers her, a woman raped by someone she trusted to be her best friend... the list goes on and on.

It's not as simple as saying that this, that, or the other could have been done to prevent it. Whatever you do you're never 100% safe.

It's one thing to say there are ways to defend yourself under certain, specific circumstances. It's another to believe blindly that those methods are completely failproof, that everyone has access to them, and to expect people to always guess every possible thing that could go wrong. That's paranoia and it's unhealthy. Saying the victims are at fault is entirely another thing, the burden is on the perpetrator to not give in to "temptation" (as you call it) not on the victim for not having superhuman powers to defeat all attackers, withstand abuse, or being able to build a fortress.

It's like saying that if you want to avoid dying in a manner that involves a car that you should just not buy one... until the day you're walking down the street and you're hit by a car. And then on top of that, saying it was your fault for being hit by a car even if you were crossing the street on the right place, for having left the house that day and crossed the street.

 

[chlotilde]

Being a target of a crime does not magically erase the fact that aspects of that person's behavior or personality contributed to the situation. Suggesting so is unscientific, unwise, and potentially downright dangerous.

Thoughts?

Add me to the list of beating this dead horse here. I've only read the first and last 5 pages of this thread...so forgive me any repetition..but will say my opinion in 4 words.

first cause = bad seed


(go ahead, blame your mama, we are blamed for everything else <sarcasm off>)


the OP (who I think is smart enough to know what I mean) is creating some perfect storm of causal events to explain a crime. Yet in either the court of law or court of science he needs point to his first cause which will lie in biology, and there he can only point to the perp (and genes, hence he inherited the proverbial sins of his father).

 

[Alceste]

That's entirely different from saying that the victims have any fault.

Living with a defensive mindset can help you run less risks but that's not entirely realistic. Children living with abusive parents are very often unable to get the help they need or defend themselves. You can have a lock on your door and lock it every night but someone can still break in, especially if you can't afford a top-range lock. You can think you're safe at work or at school until someone comes in and shoots everyone. You can ride public transportation to work until a terrorist attack happens.

A woman can be covered from head to toe and still be raped, like I mentioned in my other post, many situations of rape do not happen when the person is walking around in "revealing" clothes. A young girl being raped by a relative may be unable to do much about it, same as a wife being raped by her husband, a woman being raped by a group who outnumbers her, a woman raped by someone she trusted to be her best friend... the list goes on and on.

It's not as simple as saying that this, that, or the other could have been done to prevent it. Whatever you do you're never 100% safe.

It's one thing to say there are ways to defend yourself under certain, specific circumstances. It's another to believe blindly that those methods are completely failproof, that everyone has access to them, and to expect people to always guess every possible thing that could go wrong. That's paranoia and it's unhealthy. Saying the victims are at fault is entirely another thing, the burden is on the perpetrator to not give in to "temptation" (as you call it) not on the victim for not having superhuman powers to defeat all attackers, withstand abuse, or being able to build a fortress.

It's like saying that if you want to avoid dying in a manner that involves a car that you should just not buy one... until the day you're walking down the street and you're hit by a car. And then on top of that, saying it was your fault for being hit by a car even if you were crossing the street on the right place, for having left the house that day and crossed the street.

Yeah, whenever I hear people banging on about how tank tops and short skirts probably cause lots of rape, I can't help but think of this woman I know whose father had a penchant for anally raping his prepubescent children in their own home, regardless of what they were wearing.

And I can't help thinking of all the social services files I perused as part of my last job. Parents, neighbours, family friends, extended family, staff at child welfare facilities, etc. and the occasional teacher or preacher. That's who's doing the lion's share of the raping, at least when it comes to kids. And they don't give a fiddler's fart what those kids are wearing. They're preying on vulnerability, full stop. Whether their victim is in a burqa or a bikini, they'll exploit vulnerability whenever they can. So teaching kids how to administer a swift kick in the crotch when their boundaries are violated is bound to be far more effective than teaching them to avoid looking attractive.

 

[Planets and the Sun]

Yeah, whenever I hear people banging on about how tank tops and short skirts probably cause lots of rape, I can't help but think of this woman I know whose father had a penchant for anally raping his prepubescent children in their own home, regardless of what they were wearing.

And I can't help thinking of all the social services files I perused as part of my last job. Parents, neighbours, family friends, extended family, staff at child welfare facilities, etc. and the occasional teacher or preacher. That's who's doing the lion's share of the raping, at least when it comes to kids. And they don't give a fiddler's fart what those kids are wearing. They're preying on vulnerability, full stop. Whether their victim is in a burqa or a bikini, they'll exploit vulnerability whenever they can. So teaching kids how to administer a swift kick in the crotch when their boundaries are violated is bound to be far more effective than teaching them to avoid looking attractive.

Those are the exact kind of examples I was mentioning. Not to say anything of women who are raped by people they believe they can trust (such as relatives, best friends, or husbands) as adults, and again, regardless of their clothing. What else are people going to do? Never have friends and be always on guard against their family, having to act differently since they may "tempt" (ew...) rapists?

And it's not even that I think helping those kids defend themselves would do a whole lot, a healthy adult can overpower a kid easily unfortunately (not to mention that, as with all sorts of abuse, the power dynamics are more complicated than that). It's really about what the perpetrators shouldn't be doing than what the victims should or shouldn't have done (as much as I like the notion of rapists getting a swift kick in the crotch).

 

[Alceste]

Those are the exact kind of examples I was mentioning. Not to say anything of women who are raped by people they believe they can trust (such as relatives, best friends, or husbands) as adults, and again, regardless of their clothing. What else are people going to do? Never have friends and be always on guard against their family, having to act differently since they may "tempt" (ew...) rapists?

And it's not even that I think helping those kids defend themselves would do a whole lot, a healthy adult can overpower a kid easily unfortunately (not to mention that, as with all sorts of abuse, the power dynamics are more complicated than that). It's really about what the perpetrators shouldn't be doing than what the victims should or shouldn't have done (as much as I like the notion of rapists getting a swift kick in the crotch).

Oh I agree. Instead of wringing our hands and scratching our heads about how to teach our kids not to be assaulted, we should be teaching them how not to assault.


And we should also be teaching them how (and when) to administer a swift kick in the crotch.