Why don't we admit the fault of victims?

[Debater Slayer]

I would like any supporters of the theory that some victims are partially responsible for the crimes perpetrated against them to offer their views on this statistic, which is about violent crimes in general (and not just a specific form of them like murder, rape, etc.):

More than 75 percent of victims know their offender. (U.S. Department of Justice, National Crime Victimization Survey — September 2004)

Source.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

How is my perspective on white privilege irresponsible?

That was my cheap shot against you in retaliation for your cheap shot against me in this thread. Lest I remind you, I can fight dirty, too.

Regarding racism and white privilege in this country, I'm willing to debate with you understanding of experience and statistics in those threads. But in this thread, let's debate facts. And when it comes to rape (which is what keeps getting referenced here), I've volunteered as peer counseling, helped victims find legal resources for when they have been assaulted, and have also been active in campaigns on how to reduce risk of assault. And as a university instructor, I've also been a part of reducing that risk on campuses directly. In the course of roughly 20 years - and yes, my own story of assault spurred me to take action to help reduce risk for myself and others; as well as actively supporting justice for cases where assault has occurred - I have a lot of experience in this area.

I'm open to listening to how you back up your arguments on how exactly to reduce risk on rape, if that is the specific topic you'd like to discuss.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

But let's follow this path down the rabbit hole. It is just as naive to leave for vacation at all. It is just as naive to leave for work and not to find a way to work from home, it is just as naive to tell people about your habits, it is just as naive to talk to people. But, when you are sitting alone in your agoraphobic Wonderland and an intruder does come and kill you, it will be said that you were naive for trapping yourself in the house and not making friends who could have helped.

I don't understand what your example of somebody who is apparently mentally ill has to do with employing reasonable measures to reduce risk. People do it every day in all kinds of ways, so I'm unsure why it's such a difficult concept to grasp.

People generally want to avoid harm, being aware and responsible is certainly a way to prevent harm. But once someone has harmed you, to associate lack of awareness or responsibility as a proximate cause of the harm is ignorant. We can always talk about what one could have done differently, but not as blame. We talk about what one could have done differently for future prevention. This is a natural tendency motivated by our desire to control that which we cannot.

And our desire to help reasonably mitigate risks. As with anything, it can become obsessive or compulsive, but this has more to do with psychological/emotional imbalance than it does with rational risk mitigation. And once again, I feel that risk mitigation has nothing to do with fault or blame, it's merely a matter of how pragmatic one is.

 

[Revoltingest]

I would like any supporters of the theory that victims are partially responsible for the crimes perpetrated against them to offer their views on this statistic, which is about violent crimes in general (and not just a specific form of them like murder, rape, etc.):
Source.

Could I rephrase part of your challenge to make it more answereable?
(Addition is underlined.)
"I would like any supporters of the theory that some victims are
partially responsible for the crimes perpetrated against them...."

 

[factseeker88]

Being a target of a crime does not magically erase the fact that aspects of that person's behavior or personality contributed to the situation.

Thoughts?

Stay off the mean streets at night and you won't have to wonder how you would react if you're targeted

:yes::yes::yes:

“[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO.” John Ruskin (1819 - 1900) [/FONT]

 

[Revoltingest]

....And as a university instructor, I've also been a part of reducing that risk on campuses directly. In the course of roughly 20 years - and yes, my own story of assault spurred me to take action to help reduce risk for myself and others; as well as actively supporting justice for cases where assault has occurred.....

I knew there's vast common ground!
How something is discussed can sometimes so get in the way.

 

[Curious George]

Yes. And nobody is arguing that. I'm talking about how not getting murdered because...oh I don't know, they wore a shirt somebody didn't like or had shoes that somebody wanted.

I provided my own suggestion for people not to get raped by staying the hell away from rape apologists.

Apparently that's not enough for some people. They'd like to get into how not to dress, how not to drink to excess, how not to provoke in some way when it comes to the thread about responsibility on the victim for getting raped in the first place.

You know, that 13% chance they might get raped according to the myth.

But the dress is done with murder. Many people are told not to wear certain clothes in certain neighborhoods, or even in good neighborhoods that dressing "like a thug" will give rise to people treating them suspiciously and perhaps engaging them in a confrontationthat leads to their murder. While we say things such as "do not judge a book by its cover" these judgments are ingrained in many if not all.

I do not think this conversation only relates to rape. People want to feel as though they have the most control over what happens to them. Consequently, when something bad happens to someone there is a visceral reaction in many to look for what that person did wrong. My point is that even the most negligent behavior fails to rise to a level of culpability when compared to criminal intent. Criminal intent and action is a natural break in the chain of cause.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Could I rephrase part of your challenge to make it more answereable?
(Addition is underlined.)
"I would like any supporters of the theory that some victims are
partially responsible for the crimes perpetrated against them...."

Sure.

I will also edit the word "some" into my post to make it clearer.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think of a designer, Tony, I worked with at GM Truck & Bus in Pontiac MI. He would relate
stories about how he would posture & banter when he had run ins with the "brothers" in Detroit.
(Should that have been "runs in"?) He was a jovial enuf guy, but provocative. Note the verb tense
I used for Tony. To know when to fight, when to befriend, & when to shut up is a useful skill.

So would the advice be to refrain from being provocative?

The world is not a perfect place. There is injustice & really really unforeseeable bad luck. Nonetheless, we may each take the responsibility to better the odds.

I have many suggestions for bettering the odds. Education is one. Identifying sociological risk factors such as an increased risk of violent crime with poverty is another. Pushing for the concept of informed consent in comprehensive sex education is another. Identifying what the rhetoric of rape apologists is can be another, and then ensuring not to hang out with those people helps too.

Okay, so I gave my suggestions (and I have more) on how to reduce the risk factors for campus rape, date rape, and partner/spousal rape. I've recently been looking to see how we can reduce the risk on statutory rape and rape in the military, since those are pressing issues too. I'm interested in what others have to offer in terms of reducing risk factors as well.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

But the dress is done with murder. Many people are told not to wear certain clothes in certain neighborhoods, or even in good neighborhoods that dressing "like a thug" will give rise to people treating them suspiciously and perhaps engaging them in a confrontationthat leads to their murder. While we say things such as "do not judge a book by its cover" these judgments are ingrained in many if not all.

I do not think this conversation only relates to rape. People want to feel as though they have the most control over what happens to them. Consequently, when something bad happens to someone there is a visceral reaction in many to look for what that person did wrong. My point is that even the most negligent behavior fails to rise to a level of culpability when compared to criminal intent. Criminal intent and action is a natural break in the chain of cause.

I think this is reasonable.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

That was my cheap shot against you in retaliation for your cheap shot against me in this thread. Lest I remind you, I can fight dirty, too.

Yes, but your cheap shot wasn't really a shot at all, or at least is missed the target.

Regarding racism and white privilege in this country, I'm willing to debate with you understanding of experience and statistics in those threads. But in this thread, let's debate facts. And when it comes to rape (which is what keeps getting referenced here), I've volunteered as peer counseling, helped victims find legal resources for when they have been assaulted, and have also been active in campaigns on how to reduce risk of assault. And as a university instructor, I've also been a part of reducing that risk on campuses directly. In the course of roughly 20 years - and yes, my own story of assault spurred me to take action to help reduce risk for myself and others; as well as actively supporting justice for cases where assault has occurred - I have a lot of experience in this area.

And I applaud your experience and efforts, but that doesn't mean you have a perfect understanding of all the risk factors, situations, and scenarios where rape occurs. Even if 85% of rapes correlate to only the specific risk factors you mention, that leaves a hell of a lot of rapes that involve other risk factors. Or do you feel that we can just ignore that 15% of rapes since they don't fit your model?

Personally, I've known a number of women who have been raped and/or sexually assaulted at various points. I find that your across-the-board characterization of all rapes doesn't match quite a number of them.

I'm open to listening to how you back up your arguments on how exactly to reduce risk on rape, if that is the specific topic you'd like to discuss.

Being an actual data analyst (and a good one), regarding risk mitigation, I'd compile as many sources of data covering as many cases as possible, and perform a breakdown of all potential factors, employing an algorithm to weight them according to relevance and occurrence. I'd further break them down into other categories such as age, place, relationship, and a myriad other attributes to help isolate whether different patterns emerge in different situations. Once I obtained a working set of analyzed data, I'd look at how to employ awareness, education, counseling, and other resources to most effectively target the appropriate people in the appropriate ways to maximize the results of these methods.

There are various piecemeal studies out there now that address data in limited ways, but being a data analyst, I understand how these are often used to absolute conclusions which are not actually supportable by the amount and type of data and analysis which has been done.

At this point, using what I do know along with my personal experiences, I certainly wouldn't counsel anybody against using their common sense and gut to avoid situations they feel are potentially unsafe out of an unjustifiable, absolutist conclusion that being drunk in certain places at certain times isn't a risk factor for being raped or sexually assaulted.

 

[Curious George]

I don't understand what your example of somebody who is apparently mentally ill has to do with employing reasonable measures to reduce risk. People do it every day in all kinds of ways, so I'm unsure why it's such a difficult concept to grasp.



And our desire to help reasonably mitigate risks. As with anything, it can become obsessive or compulsive, but this has more to do with psychological/emotional imbalance than it does with rational risk mitigation. And once again, I feel that risk mitigation has nothing to do with fault or blame, it's merely a matter of how pragmatic one is.

I applaud your acknowledgment in this thread and others of distinguishing between fault and pragmatism, however I believe you acknowledged in another thread that risk and risk aversion is a personal choice. My point was that calling someone naive because they are less risk adverse than you is ignorant, because the same can be said for you by a person who is more risk adverse. Similarly, the way you classify a person who is extremely risk adverse can be said of you by someone less risk adverse. While I appreciate your pov in the rape thread that is individual focused, your view of another's naivete is far from rational since risk aversion is relative to the individual.

 

[Revoltingest]

So would the advice be to refrain from being provocative?

I detect a whiff of a loaded question, but yes.
Tony was prone to aggressive speech.
To use a go analogy, to make a contact play is to invite
fighting, which is bad when one is not otherwise in danger.

I have many suggestions for bettering the odds. Education is one. Identifying sociological risk factors such as an increased risk of violent crime with poverty is another. Pushing for the concept of informed consent in comprehensive sex education is another. Identifying what the rhetoric of rape apologists is can be another, and then ensuring not to hang out with those people helps too.

Okay, so I gave my suggestions (and I have more) on how to reduce the risk factors for campus rape, date rape, and partner/spousal rape. I've recently been looking to see how we can reduce the risk on statutory rape and rape in the military, since those are pressing issues too. I'm interested in what others have to offer in terms of reducing risk factors as well.

Aye, a few have been offered so far.
I'm sure there are more.
Perhaps it belongs in a thread wherein the theme is not debating the
efficacy of reducing risk, but in discussing all the strategies for doing so.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I applaud your acknowledgment in this thread and others of distinguishing between fault and pragmatism, however I believe you acknowledged in another thread that risk and risk aversion is a personal choice. My point was that calling someone naive because they are less risk adverse than you is ignorant, because the same can be said for you by a person who is more risk adverse. Similarly, the way you classify a person who is extremely risk adverse can be said of you by someone less risk adverse. While I appreciate your pov in the rape thread that is individual focused, your view of another's naivete is far from rational since risk aversion is relative to the individual.

I think you misunderstood. I said that they're naive if they don't think that locking their doors and windows wouldn't reduce their chance of getting robbed. It wasn't at all a comment that people who aren't risk adverse are naive, only a comment that it's naive to not acknowledge employing risk mitigation reduces risk.

 

[Nymphs]

When I go away on a trip, among other things, I make sure all the doors and windows on my house are locked. I don't do this to cover my *** or avoid blame if my house gets broken into. I do it to reduce the chance that I'll come home to an empty house.

A locked house and rape are a bit different.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

A locked house and rape are a bit different.

And yet the analogy of why we try to mitigate risk still applies.

 

[Nymphs]

Would you agree that one is less likely to get murdered if they don't join a gang nor partake in its activities?

That's not the only place people get murdered at...you do know that, right?

 

[Nymphs]

Also, I find it interesting that when somebody disagrees, it's the result of being too emotional. And those that do agree with a side, it's merely being dispassionate and rational.

Hmmm....

Well, you'd think I'd might be a bit emotional about my assault.

 

[Curious George]

I think you misunderstood. I said that they're naive if they don't think that locking their doors and windows wouldn't reduce their chance of getting robbed. It wasn't at all a comment that people who aren't risk adverse are naive, only a comment that it's naive to not acknowledge employing risk mitigation reduces risk.

Well then I apologize for my poor reading comprehension, I obviously jumped the gun on that one.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yes, but your cheap shot wasn't really a shot at all, or at least is missed the target.

I guess I missed your gut and hit your head instead. Perhaps that's why you didn't feel anything.

And I applaud your experience and efforts, but that doesn't mean you have a perfect understanding of all the risk factors, situations, and scenarios where rape occurs. Even if 85% of rapes correlate to only the specific risk factors you mention, that leaves a hell of a lot of rapes that involve other risk factors. Or do you feel that we can just ignore that 15% of rapes since they don't fit your model?

I don't ignore them. But the suggestions provided on how to reduce the risk have been shown to be ineffective. For example, it has been shown that a woman can go to a party wearing a ponytail, never leave her drink alone, never go to the bathroom alone, and be sure to not drink to excess, but still wind up dancing with a guy who seems nice, but winds up saying he wants to go back to her place and instead kidnaps her and takes her to his place instead.

Am I telling people to stop what they're doing? Um, no. And it says more about you than it does about me that you would jump to that conclusion about me and my efforts.

Personally, I've known a number of women who have been raped and/or sexually assaulted at various points. I find that your across-the-board characterization of all rapes doesn't match quite a number of them.

Being an actual data analyst (and a good one), regarding risk mitigation, I'd compile as many sources of data covering as many cases as possible, and perform a breakdown of all potential factors, employing an algorithm to weight them according to relevance and occurrence. I'd further break them down into other categories such as age, place, relationship, and a myriad other attributes to help isolate whether different patterns emerge in different situations. Once I obtained a working set of analyzed data, I'd look at how to employ awareness, education, counseling, and other resources to most effectively target the appropriate people in the appropriate ways to maximize the results of these methods.

There are various piecemeal studies out there now that address data in limited ways, but being a data analyst, I understand how these are often used to absolute conclusions which are not actually supportable by the amount and type of data and analysis which has been done.

At this point, using what I do know along with my personal experiences, I certainly wouldn't counsel anybody against using their common sense and gut to avoid situations they feel are potentially unsafe out of an unjustifiable, absolutist conclusion that being drunk in certain places at certain times isn't a risk factor for being raped or sexually assaulted.

And as good as you are at risk analysis, you aren't perfect either.

You know, I have a little bit more free time until I head to the studio. I'm willing to engage in childish antics (maybe I'm bored, I dunno) with you while you prefer to childishly focus on my character rather than the actual facts I present and the facts you present too.

Hey, since I'm actually active in rape prevention in my community, I'm open to hearing actual rape prevention tips from people that work. As an analyst, I'm sure you have some that are pragmatic.

Or did you want to play dirty? I'm up for mud wrestling. That's much sexier.