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Why "God does not exist" is a positive claim

firedragon

Veteran Member
What is the alternative? Anything physical is a natural process by definition.
Exactly. So if you are looking for an alternative, it has to be grounded on the subject matter. First you must understand according to philosophy of science by default you cannot engage in the subject of a metaphysical being. they are two categories.

I thin that's the beginning. No point going any further beyond that understanding. I just hope you understand.

That is a positive claim you've failed to support. :cool: You're the one proposing a metaphysical being that is capable of interacting with the physical world.
That's wrong. I did not "propose" a metaphysical being. A topic could be opened to discuss within its own paradigm. Cmon mate. That's so basic.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No, it doesn't. And that's setting aside that something like "reasonable" is a superfluous and unnecessary value judgement when assessing this question.
“Reasonable” is used all the time when discussing burdens and evidence. It’s unreasonable to state otherwise, though not surprising that a theist wouldn’t want “reasonableness” a part of the equation.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
“Reasonable” is used all the time when discussing burdens and evidence. It’s unreasonable to state otherwise, though not surprising that a theist wouldn’t want “reasonableness” a part of the equation.
I think it's pretty obvious that people's definitions of reasonableness will differ. I mean, some people will literally look at the fact that humans have reported experiences of gods for thousands of years, and write all those individual, billions of experiences off as lies/delusion/etc., without a hint of evidence, and believe it's rational!
That would derail the thread.
You admit it is a positive claim but avoid defending it. Very interesting indeed.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
“Reasonable” is used all the time when discussing burdens and evidence. It’s unreasonable to state otherwise, though not surprising that a theist wouldn’t want “reasonableness” a part of the equation.
Your prejudice is showing. It made me chuckle though and know not to waste my time conversing with you on this further. Have a day.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
'God does not exist' is what is known (in some forms of the scientific method) as the NULL Hypothesis. A null hypothesis is the positive TESTABLE assertion that some entity or phenomenon DOES NOT EXIST.

Examples: Black swans do not exist
Bigfoot does not exist
Atheists do not exist

The null is always paired with an ALTERNATIVE Hypothesis, that the same entity or phenomenon DOES EXIST.

Examples: Black swans do exist
Bigfoot does not exist
Atheists do exist

In this kind of scientific method, the scientist then makes a prediction about what kind of evidence could be collected that would, if absent, would support the hypothesis that the entity or phenomenon does not exist, while if the evidence were present, would support the alternative hypothesis, that the entity or phenomenon does exist.

Europeans long thought that black swans did not exist, because all the swans they knew of were white: they collected information and found no reason to reject the null hypothesis and accept the alternative. But when Europeans got to Australia, they discovered that black swans do exist, which caused them to reject the null and accept the alternative.

So far, there is little accepted evidence that Bigfoot exists, so scientists 'fail to reject' the null hypothesis.

Likewise, there is considerable evidence that people who do not believe that god exists (aka atheists) exist, and so the null is rejected and the alternative is accepted.

The statement that God does not exist is a null hypothesis.
The alternative hypothesis is that God does exist.

The point of contention is over what would constitute valid and testable evidence, the absence of which would cause one to fail to reject the null, and the presence of which would cause one to accept that the alternative is true.

The real problem is that there is no clear, testable definition of what God is, or what evidence would be collectable, in order to reject either of the hypotheses.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Obviously "God does not exist" is a hard atheists assertion. Maybe this is not a big topic but I thought it should be brought out and some feedback is nice.
As you said, it is obvious.
The problems arise when apologists try to straw-man atheists who only state "I don't believe that god(s) exist", which happens frequently. But the reverse is also true, as atheists sometimes hear "god does exist" when a believer simply states "I believe in god(s)".

Now, statements about inner states ("I believe gods (don't) exist") are no basis for debate. They have no philosophical meaning and are unfalsifiable anyway.

That's why I don't identify as an atheist (I am, by definition, but as I said, it's not a philosophical position). Instead, I say to the atheists as well as to the believers: "You don't know what a god is". Yes, that's a positive claim, and I'm prepared to defend it.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
And once you go through that exercise, it becomes evident god does not exist.


Evident to you, perhaps. On the other hand, there are no shortage of people who claim to have first hand experience of divine power working in their lives. So why should they believe in your reasoning over their own lived experience?
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Exactly. So if you are looking for an alternative, it has to be grounded on the subject matter. First you must understand according to philosophy of science by default you cannot engage in the subject of a metaphysical being. they are two categories.
I'll accept that if you'll accept is isn't "you", it is "we". Everyone is equally limited on their ability to know about anything metaphysical, regardless of whether they're believers or not.

You also keep evading the key question of a metaphysical being having influence on the physical world. The physical effects are within the scope of science, even if they were initially causes by something metaphysical but you can't simply assert a metaphysical cause but then block any challenge to that assertion on the basis that we can't study the metaphysical. I can't declare it doesn't exist but you can't declare it does either.

That's wrong. I did not "propose" a metaphysical being. A topic could be opened to discuss within its own paradigm. Cmon mate. That's so basic.
Well, you do in general, but I accept that you haven't directly in this thread.

Regardless, the statement "God does not exist" implies the existence of and initial definition of "God" and a claim or assertion that it does exist. If no metaphysical beings were being proposed, this entire thread wouldn't exist. So again, the proposal of a metaphysical being has exactly the same logical and factual limitations as the denial of that metaphysical being.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I'll accept that if you'll accept is isn't "you", it is "we". Everyone is equally limited on their ability to know about anything metaphysical, regardless of whether they're believers or not.

You also keep evading the key question of a metaphysical being having influence on the physical world. The physical effects are within the scope of science, even if they were initially causes by something metaphysical but you can't simply assert a metaphysical cause but then block any challenge to that assertion on the basis that we can't study the metaphysical. I can't declare it doesn't exist but you can't declare it does either.

...


Relevant part:
"... Questions that deal with supernatural explanations are, by definition, beyond the realm of nature — and hence, also beyond the realm of what can be studied by science. For many, such questions are matters of personal faith and spirituality. ..."
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member

Relevant part:
"... Questions that deal with supernatural explanations are, by definition, beyond the realm of nature — and hence, also beyond the realm of what can be studied by science. For many, such questions are matters of personal faith and spirituality. ..."

But that's incorrect though. The supernatural can be studied if it interacts with the natural.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
That's why I don't identify as an atheist (I am, by definition, but as I said, it's not a philosophical position). Instead, I say to the atheists as well as to the believers: "You don't know what a god is". Yes, that's a positive claim, and I'm prepared to defend it.

I find that intriguing. Why do you hold this position?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I dispute that assertion. It would entail that pretty much every supernatural thing is actually natural and essentially empty the category of supernatural things. I don't find that to be an useful approach.

So do you do methodological naturalism or something else in regards to science?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Tentative ontological naturalism.

Okay, I have never seem proof for that or even evidence. So me that is a belief system just like a supernatural one.

Now I do in effect a form of methodological naturalism as an atheist. But I don't do ontology in any meaningful sense as a positive.
 
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