• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why "God does not exist" is a positive claim

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
And how do you know facts or logic?
Your view of your understanding of 'facts' is solipsistic, Logic on the other hand is dominated by arguments of self-justified belief beyond any consideration of facts when dealing with the subjective without an objective basis,.
Here is a trick I leaned over 25 years ago by a skeptic.
You make a claim in effect. I ask how you know that or what are you assuming with that claim. You make a new claim and I ask again. Unless you are unique, you will hit the limit of epistemology like everybody else and thus end in a belief system. And yes, that also includes me.
Again, again and again solipsism continues unabated.

It can be assumed concerning the issues of this thread no one in reality "knows." You need to move beyond this and deal with the substance of the discussion.

As referenced concerning the "Burden of Proof" the Theists make the positive statement and it is their responsibility to support their positive claim of not only believing in God, but "knowing God."
 
Last edited:

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Can be?!?!?! Concerning the "Burden of Proof" it is a negative belief. The "Burden of Proof" is the responsibility off those that make the positive claims of belief in Gods. See post #574 and #583.
A burden of proof is assumed by someone making a verifiable ontologic claim. "God does not exist" is such a claim.
"'Positive' claim" in the epistemic context we're using it here, refers to an actual or real, claim.

Both "There is a God" and "There is not a God" carry a burden of proof. They're in the same semantic class. Only the former, though, could be demonstrated.
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
A burden of proof is assumed by someone making an ontologic claim. "God does not exist" is such a claim.
"'Positive' claim" in the epistemic context we're using it here, refers to an actual or real, claim.

Both "There is a God" and "There is not a God" carry a burden of proof.

I disagree with this based on the reference I provided in posts #574 and #583.

Rewording the negative claim of the belief that their are no Gods does not make it a positive claim as referenced,

This must take into consideration the fact that both side represent subjective claims without resolution.

The best argument is against the existence of the ancient hands on anthropomorphic Gods described in ancient tribal cultural texts, There are too many contradictions s to what an Omnipotent all powerful, all knowing God would be, What is described is anthropomorphic tribal Gods making very human decisions.

More to follow . . .
 
Last edited:

PureX

Veteran Member
You're strawmanning again! I don't make any such claim.
I often make claims about relevance, validity, or soundness, but falsehood is a different thing.
That's just semantics. You've rejected every conception of God, every experience of God, and every assertion you've ever heard about God as being untrue.
Hogwash.
... and why would "unconvinced" exclude atheism?
Because atheism is a conviction. One that you express constantly because you are fully convinced of it's validity.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Burden of Proof, and the Hot Potato of "Shifting the Burden of Proof."

In these arguments it must be understood that traditional Theist not only claim to believe in God, but to "Know God."


The Burden of Proof as presented below applies to claims that are cognitive and empirical. The principle applies to claims about what exists or does not exist.

The burden of proof is always on the claim that X exists rather than on the claim that X does not exist. It is a fallacy to claim that X exists unless you prove that there is no X. What is improper is for a person to claim that "X exists" and when asked to prove it, then the person who made the claim uses as a defense of "X exists" the next claim that no one has proven that X does not exist.

The instances of circumstances that provide nuanced exceptions (see below) to the rule are so few and misleading to let it appear they nullify the rule that it is far better to just state that the burden of proof is always on the claim that X exists rather than on the claim that X does not exist. It is a fallacy to claim that X exists unless you prove that there is no X. What is improper is for a person to claim that "X exists" and when asked to prove it, then the person who made the claim uses as a defense of "X exists" the next claim that no one has proven that X does not exist.

If a person claims that X exists and is real then the burden is on that person to supply some support for that claim, some evidence or proof that others can and should examine before accepting it. It is incorrect to think that X exists and is real until someone can prove that there is no X. It is also wrong to think that just because you can not prove that X exists that does not mean that X does not exist and therefore X does exist.

Why is it that the burden is on the person who makes the claim? Well think whether or not it is a better way to proceed through life to accept anything and everything that people claim to be so. Experience should instruct every thinking human that there is a high probability that not everything that people claim to be true is actually true. Some claims might be made with the claimant aware that the claim is not true and some claims might be made with the claimant thinking that they are true but being mistaken. As it is for most humans not a very good idea to proceed through life based on beliefs that are false and thinking things to be true when they are not, most humans and those who would use reason to guide them will want some evidence and reasoning to support a claim being asserted to be true. So the burden is on those who make claims to offer reason and evidence in support of those claims.

SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF

The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.

The person making a negative claim cannot logically prove nonexistence. And here's why: to know that a X does not exist would require a perfect knowledge of all things (omniscience). To attain this knowledge would require simultaneous access to all parts of the world and beyond (omnipresence). Therefore, to be certain of the claim that X does not exist one would have to possess abilities that are non-existent. Obviously, mankind's limited nature precludes these special abilities. The claim that X does not exist is therefore unjustifiable. As logician Mortimer Adler has pointed out, the attempt to prove a universal negative is a self- defeating proposition. These claims are "worldwide existential negatives." They are only a small class of all possible negatives. They cannot be established by direct observation because no single human observer can cover the whole earth at one time in order to declare by personal authority that any “X” doesn't exist.

Burden of Proof

From X, which is the assertion, is not yet disproved. Therefore, X.

This is a Fallacy. X is unproven and remains unproven.

Examples:

(1)Of course God exists. Has anyone ever proven otherwise?

(2)Of course pink elephants inhabit Mars. We don't see them because they blend in. Can you prove otherwise?

(3)Of course Santa Claus exists. No one has ever proved, to my knowledge, that Santa Claus does not exist. And if one were to fly to the North Pole and say: Well, look, there's no toy factory there. A believer could argue: Well, Santa Claus knew you were coming and moved his operations to the South Pole. So you fly down to the South Pole. No Santa Claus factory, toy factory there. So the believer would say: Oh, he moved it back up to the North Pole.

(4) Of course leprechauns exist. Has anyone ever proven otherwise?

(5) Of course ghosts exist. Has anyone ever proven otherwise?

(6) Of course yellow polka dotted aliens exist. Has anyone ever proven otherwise?

(7) Of course X exist. Has anyone ever proven otherwise?

Proof of a Negative Claim

So you simply cannot prove general claims that are negative claims -- one cannot prove that ghosts do not exist; one cannot prove that leprechauns too do not exist. One simply cannot prove a negative and general claim.

"Negative statements often make claims that are hard to prove because they make predictions about things we are in practice unable to observe in a finite time. For instance, "there are no big green Martians" means "there are no big green Martians in this or any universe," and unlike your bathtub, it is not possible to look in every corner of every universe, thus we cannot completely test this proposition--we can just look around within the limits of our ability and our desire to expend time and resources on looking, and prove that, where we have looked so far, and within the limits of our knowing anything at all, there are no big green Martians. In such a case we have proved a negative, just not the negative of the sweeping proposition in question."-Richard Carrier, "Proving a Negative "(1999) by Richard Carrier at Richard Carrier Theory » Internet Infidels
It is possible to prove rather specific negative claims that are made with rather well defined limits. If the area to be searched is well defined and of a reasonable size that permits searching then a negative claim might be capable of being proven. For example, if one claims that there is no apple in the top desk drawer of a desk then all one needs to do is to open the top desk drawer indicated in the claim and examine it for its contents. Finding no apple therein would provide sufficient evidence under ordinary circumstances to verify or confirm the negative claim that there is no apple in the top desk drawer.
In this regard Irving Marmer Copi writes:
"In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence." - Introduction to Logic, Copi, 1953, Page 95
You can prove a specific negative claim by providing contradictory evidence. An example of a proof of a rather specific negative claim by contradictory evidence would be if someone were to claim that the one and only watch that you own is in the top drawer of the desk. You make the negative claim that it is not in the drawer and you see it clearly on your wrist. There is no need to look in the drawer.
You can also prove specific negative claims when they involve known impossibilities. For example is someone were to claim that the one and only moon that normally orbits the planet earth was in the top desk drawer. You claim that the moon is not in the desk drawer. There would be no need to look inside because the mass of the moon would not fit inside such a space and were its mass to be condensed its mass would be far greater than the desk could support were the desk made of ordinary earth substances.
You can also prove specific negative claims that can be rephrased as a positive claim. If someone claims that the lights are not on in room 442 that claim can be rephrased as claiming that the lights are off in room 442.
The claim that you can not prove a negative claim is itself a negative claim and would be a self defeating statement or a retortion were it not generally understood to be a limited claim. What is usually meant by the assertion that "One can not prove a negative claim" is that it is not logical to insist on proof of claims or statements of the sort: " There is no such thing as X that exists anywhere at all and at any time at all."
Negative claims in the context of religion are very commonly of this form:
  • "You can not prove that there is no deity"
  • "You can not prove that there are no miracles"
These claims are asserted by those holding belief in the existence of such phenomena. They do not usually assert such criticisms against those who claim that there are no phenomena such as those not believed in by the defenders of the existence of a deity or miracles. For example believers in deity or miracles do not criticize those who claim that there are no tooth fairies or that there are no leprechauns. The theists appears to think that the critic of theism is claiming that there are no deities and that such a claim can be proven or has been proven. What is actually being claimed by most critics of the claims that there are deities or miracles is that "There is not sufficient evidence to establish the existence of a deity or a miracle." or that "It has not been proven that there are deities or miracles." The burden of proof is on the claimant of the positive claim that an entity X does exist. The critic of the person making the positive claim that an entity X does exist is asking for evidence in support of that claim and that the evidence be relevant and sufficient to warrant or support the claim.
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
That's just semantics. You've rejected every conception of God, every experience of God, and every assertion you've ever heard about God as being untrue.
Actually the best approach is that "every conception of God, every experience of God, and every assertion you've ever heard about God,"
are 'subjective beliefs' and not supported by any objective evidence.
Because atheism is a conviction. One that you express constantly because you are fully convinced of it's validity.
OK, but needs more explanation.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@Valjean
Well, Valjean assert that there is no reason to assume that a given god without evidence exists. The problem is that it is a double standard as there is no evidence for the bold one, but it is okay to ask other people for evidence.
That is how I see the trick. That only that with evidence is relevant, but that it is relevant is without evidence.
You expect me to "prove a negative?"
 

PureX

Veteran Member
This is a false generalization of what and how atheists believe. Simply atheists believe there is no objective evidence exists for any kind or variety of Gods exist,
And for the atheist, no objective evidence means no gods exist. And they say this CONSTANTLY. Their default for no evidence is negation. Not "I don't know".
It is more valid that Theists presume to know what would be evidence for the existence of Gods that you cannot coherently define consistently an argument for the existence of Gods other than simply they believe God exist.
Very few theists have any interest in "evidence" beyond the direct results of their faith. Their faith in God works for them in their lives. Their lack of faith in God did not work for them in their lives. That is their evidence and it's all the evidence they need.
It must be understood that the belief in Gods is based on the testimony of various diverse cultural ancient tribal texts without provenance.
It makes no difference at all what anyone's belief in God is based on. People believe whatever holds true for them in their experience of living. When an ideal does not hold true for them via their personal experience, they will not hold onto it.

Atheists think that for an idea to "work" it must be objectively falsified. This is complete nonsense. They have turned their fantasy of "objectivity" into a kind of godless deity that must sanction all truth claims.
The problem of "idiocy" and the lack of "critical thinking" is the problem of traditional Theists that blindly accept the testimony of ancient cultural texts without provenance or relevance as to what a "Universal God" would be beyond the narrow perspective of one of many diverse and conflicting ancient cultures,
People are free to choose whatever image of the great mystery source of all that exists they prefer. Why not? It's whatever works for them. You cant understand this because you worship your imagined deity of "objectivity". And therefor cannot tolerate their completely subjective reasoning. @mikkel_the_dane has been trying to explain this to you and others here for many, many posts. But you just aren't getting it.
 
Last edited:

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
And for the atheist, no objective evidence means no gods exist. And they say this CONSTANTLY. Their default for no evidence is negation. Not "I don't know".
Where are you getting all the straw from to make these endless men?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Actually the best approach is that "every conception of God, every experience of God, and every assertion you've ever heard about God,"
are 'subjective beliefs' and not supported by any objective evidence.
There is no such thing as "objective evidence". But you will never understand this.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Your posts. So you'd better avoid any fires.
Please reference any single post of mine that says anything remotely like "no objective evidence means no gods exist". I have actually repeatedly said that it's perfectly possible that a God might exist and there be no evidence for it.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
It must be a very strange and uncomfortable thing to be an atheist and then have to constantly deny your atheism.

Seems like it would be so much easier to just accept the possibility that God/gods exist even though you will never know if, what, or how.

Or to just admit that in spite of having no evidence whatever, you choose to believe that no gods exist, anyway.
 
Last edited:

PureX

Veteran Member
Please reference any single post of mine that says anything remotely like "no objective evidence means no gods exist". I have actually repeatedly said that it's perfectly possible that a God might exist and there be no evidence for it.
But never the God of the theists you're talking to! Right? Or of any theist that you have EVER talked to. All those versions of God are clearly NOT possible. Which is the conclusion that you automatically "defaulted" to.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Seems like it would be so much easier to just accept the possibility that God/gods exist...
How many more times? Agnostic atheists (such as myself) do accept that possibility, it's just that we see no reason to take it seriously. All sorts of things are possible, but absent any reasons to take them seriously, there is no reason to believe they are at all probable, and to therefore believe them to be true.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
How many more times? Agnostic atheists (such as myself) do accept that possibility, it's just that we see no reason to take it seriously. All sorts of things are possible, but absent any reasons to take them seriously, there is no reason to believe they are at all probable, and to therefore believe them to be true.

What do you mean by reasons?
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
But never the God of the theists you're talking to! Right? Or of any theist that you have EVER talked to. All those versions of God are clearly NOT possible. Which is the conclusion that you automatically "defaulted" to.
You're just making this up, clearly. Some versions of God are refuted by evidence and some are self-contradictory, but that leaves a lot that are possible but with no reasons to take them seriously.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There is no such thing as "objective evidence". But you will never understand this.
Concerning the subjective claims beyond the physical nature of our existence this is true.

I understand Methodological Naturalism based on objective verifiable evidence,
 
Top