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Why has science always been the bad guy

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You skirted the question and never answered it, so let me repeat it:

Also, if Jesus didn't accept allegory and metaphors, why did he use parables and also cite from the Psalms, which is jammed pack full of both?

I think I did answer the question. It is not my interpretation that matters, but what the Bible actually says. Jesus used parables or illustrations to teach. He quoted from the Psalms, as he did the rest of the Scriptures, as the authority and basis for his teachings. Any metaphors used in the Psalms, for example, "Jehovah is my shepherd" clearly are to teach us about our Creator, not perplex us with some supposed hidden meaning. Jesus taught the Genesis accounts of Adam, the Flood, Abraham, and others as historical fact. So do the rest do the Scriptures.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I think I did answer the question. It is not my interpretation that matters, but what the Bible actually says. Jesus used parables or illustrations to teach. He quoted from the Psalms, as he did the rest of the Scriptures, as the authority and basis for his teachings. Any metaphors used in the Psalms, for example, "Jehovah is my shepherd" clearly are to teach us about our Creator, not perplex us with some supposed hidden meaning. Jesus taught the Genesis accounts of Adam, the Flood, Abraham, and others as historical fact. So do the rest do the Scriptures.

Then I would assume that you must believe that the Book of Revelations is simply trash because it's chock full of allegory and metaphors.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Then I would assume that you must believe that the Book of Revelations is simply trash because it's chock full of allegory and metaphors.

Revelation begins with these words:"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John."
So, I believe the prophecies in Revelation contain symbols or signs that represent real events, persons, and groups. Often, the symbols in Revelation are explained; for example, the dragon mentioned in Revelation 12:3,4 is identified in verse 9. Revelation is not allegorical, but true prophecy presented with symbolic language.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Revelation begins with these words:"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John."
So, I believe the prophecies in Revelation contain symbols or signs that represent real events, persons, and groups. Often, the symbols in Revelation are explained; for example, the dragon mentioned in Revelation 12:3,4 is identified in verse 9. Revelation is not allegorical, but true prophecy presented with symbolic language.

Thanks for taking my position in reality. :D
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
What force would that teaching have if based on a myth or allegory?

.


:facepalm: to me it is sad you dont understand this.


The lessons the book teaches does not require a literal event to have taken place. Morals and lessons are all still there for one to learn from.

By giving the books a literal interpretation it ruins the original beauty the authors intended.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
To ask "Why has science always been the bad guy?" is to assert that "science always been the bad guy." Would you care to defend that claim?

I understand ther may be some over generalizations in this thread which were also pointed out by sunstone. Still i see plenty of example of the sciences being attacked here as if scientists try to I make stuff up. Or is it more unsubstantiated claims being attacked? Like evolution is being claimed that it is not fact like I lumped it in the fact category with no business doing so.?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I understand ther may be some over generalizations in this thread ...
The title is not an over generalization. It is an ignorant distortion, and a particularly ironic one given that it's asserted on a website rife with religion-bashing. Even more ironic is that you no doubt saw your OP as an effort in defense of reason when, in fact, it demonstrates quite the opposite.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
I actually never heard a theist say that science is bad or unreliable. If I did, they were probably delusional.

It seems that science isn't the blame, but theists often do criticize some studies.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
I believe a true Christian is one who accepts and follows the teachings and commands of Jesus Christ, not one who merely takes the title "Christian". Jesus said regarding the Scriptures "your word is truth." (John 17:17) There is nothing in the Bible to suggest Jesus or any of his followers believed the account of Adam and Eve to be anything other than historical fact. Luke chapter 3 traces Jesus genealogy back to the first man Adam. Jesus believed the Genesis account, and taught the basis for monogamy is the first marriage of Eve to Adam. What force would that teaching have if based on a myth or allegory? No amount of obfuscation can hide the truth that Jesus and his apostles believed the historicity of Genesis.
So, if a person accepts Jesus Christ as their personal savior yet also accepts evolution, do you think that they be excluded from Heaven simply because they thought creation in Genesis was metaphorical rather than literal?
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
I agree, Muslims had some valuable contributions to science, best in the civilized world for a long time. Don't know why it has to be demonized now.

Neil Degrasse-Tyson dicusses the downfall of the golden age of islamic/middle eastern scientific progress. He theorises that the downfall started when some imam stated that the manipulation of numbers was of the devil. I don't know if this is true, im trying to find the clip now and get the guys name.

If anyone can point me in the right direction it'll save me a lot of youtubing

-Q
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
[youtube]6oxTMUTOz0w[/youtube]
The Erosion of Progress by Religions - YouTube

Neil Degrasse-Tyson dicusses the downfall of the golden age of islamic/middle eastern scientific progress. He theorises that the downfall started when some imam stated that the manipulation of numbers was of the devil. I don't know if this is true, im trying to find the clip now and get the guys name.

If anyone can point me in the right direction it'll save me a lot of youtubing

-Q

Its relevant to the op.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So, if a person accepts Jesus Christ as their personal savior yet also accepts evolution, do you think that they be excluded from Heaven simply because they thought creation in Genesis was metaphorical rather than literal?

I believe one simply cannot be both a macro-evolutionist and a (true) Christian. And as for going to heaven, Jesus taught the vast majority of true Christians will live forever on earth. (Matthew 5:5) What I think does not matter. What the Bible says does matter. (Romans 3:3,4) The answer to your question is there.
How can one accept Jesus as their personal savior and at the same time, deny what he taught? (1 Corinthians 15:22) And from what does Jesus save them? If they evolved, and the account of Adam's sin is not real history, why did Jesus sacrifice his life? (Matthew 20:28)
Those who claim they have no sin make God to be a liar. (1 John 1:8-10) if the Genesis account is not factual, how could anything the Bible says be trusted, since the rest of the Bible teaches the Genesis account is true?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I believe one simply cannot be both a macro-evolutionist and a (true) Christian. And as for going to heaven, Jesus taught the vast majority of true Christians will live forever on earth. (Matthew 5:5) What I think does not matter. What the Bible says does matter. (Romans 3:3,4) The answer to your question is there.
How can one accept Jesus as their personal savior and at the same time, deny what he taught? (1 Corinthians 15:22) And from what does Jesus save them? If they evolved, and the account of Adam's sin is not real history, why did Jesus sacrifice his life? (Matthew 20:28)
Those who claim they have no sin make God to be a liar. (1 John 1:8-10) if the Genesis account is not factual, how could anything the Bible says be trusted, since the rest of the Bible teaches the Genesis account is true?

Because adam can be a chosen people and evolution still be true. Jacob a chosen lineage etc. Simple as that. Your claim that one cant believe evolution correctly and still be christain is sad really. :(
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
I believe one simply cannot be both a macro-evolutionist and a (true) Christian. And as for going to heaven, Jesus taught the vast majority of true Christians will live forever on earth. (Matthew 5:5) What I think does not matter. What the Bible says does matter. (Romans 3:3,4) The answer to your question is there.
How can one accept Jesus as their personal savior and at the same time, deny what he taught? (1 Corinthians 15:22) And from what does Jesus save them? If they evolved, and the account of Adam's sin is not real history, why did Jesus sacrifice his life? (Matthew 20:28)
Those who claim they have no sin make God to be a liar. (1 John 1:8-10) if the Genesis account is not factual, how could anything the Bible says be trusted, since the rest of the Bible teaches the Genesis account is true?
I'm asking what your personal opinion is here. What do you believe the Bible says? If a person who has accepted Jesus Christ believes that the Bible is infallible, but interprets it differently than you, will that person go to Hell? What's your opinion?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm asking what your personal opinion is here. What do you believe the Bible says? If a person who has accepted Jesus Christ believes that the Bible is infallible, but interprets it differently than you, will that person go to Hell? What's your opinion?

What would you do if someone who claimed to be your friend told terrible lies about you? Perhaps they did dishonest and cruel things to others, saying they were acting in your behalf. This person claimed you tortured your children when they misbehaved, or just did things you didn't like. How would you feel about this so-called "friend"?
I don't believe the Bible is open to private interpretations. Jesus said many would claim to serve him but he would say to them "‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:23) Jesus also said: "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will."
(Matthew 7:21) That is what I believe, since you asked.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I don't believe the Bible is open to private interpretations


.


:facepalm:

Yet you have your own interpretation! With no real education on the subject, [biblical history, cultural anthropology ect ect] and you have only shown apologetic bias.

You have thrown out all credible history and science, to follow your interpretation.


Jesus said

Im sorry, but we dont know what he may have said. The book were not written by people witness to him.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
What would you do if someone who claimed to be your friend told terrible lies about you? Perhaps they did dishonest and cruel things to others, saying they were acting in your behalf. This person claimed you tortured your children when they misbehaved, or just did things you didn't like. How would you feel about this so-called "friend"?
I don't believe the Bible is open to private interpretations. Jesus said many would claim to serve him but he would say to them "‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:23) Jesus also said: "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will."
(Matthew 7:21) That is what I believe, since you asked.

But how do you know jesus didnt know about evolution, he would have had the knowledge yet he didnt say. Yet there are hints like the two very separate creation accounts and before Abraham I am. What exactly would lawlessness have to do with knowledge anyway, you are really reaching here and you are not an authority on gods knowledge even if you know jesus personally. If anything denying science is denying knowledge of god which is the reason there are so many theistic evolutionists.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
What would you do if someone who claimed to be your friend told terrible lies about you? Perhaps they did dishonest and cruel things to others, saying they were acting in your behalf. This person claimed you tortured your children when they misbehaved, or just did things you didn't like. How would you feel about this so-called "friend"?
I don't believe the Bible is open to private interpretations. Jesus said many would claim to serve him but he would say to them "‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:23) Jesus also said: "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will."
(Matthew 7:21) That is what I believe, since you asked.
So basically you are saying that accepting evolution is a ticket directly to Hell regardless an individual's other beliefs, lifestyle or relationship with Christ. Interesting...

So what does that mean for people who accept other interpretations in different areas of the Bible? Compare "once saved always saved" believers to "you can lose your salvation" believers. Only one of those doctrines is true so the other must be false. Does this mean that all individuals in the "wrong" group must necessarily go to Hell? How about people long ago who believed that Christian theology necessitated the Earth being at the center of the Universe with the Sun and stars orbiting it because humans were so important in the eyes of God? Today we know they were wrong. Are they in Hell now because they taught a non-truth? When it comes to Revelation, there are many different interpretations. Come to think of it, there are probably no two people on Earth who share 100% of their interpretations of all verses in the Bible. Surely almost everyone has at least a few "wrong" interpretations. Does this mean that almost every Christian goes to Hell because they no doubt are wrong about some things?

For you friend analogy, there is a difference between intentionally spreading lies about someone and saying things about them that they genuinely believe are true. If I had an online friend who said that I was a female and really believed that I was female, I would not have anywhere near as much of a problem with that as I would if they knew that I was a male and told others that I was a female for some malicious purpose. Very difference scenarios.

As far as "private" interpretation goes, there is a major problem with that. All denominations believe that their interpretation is God's truth and that all others are private interpretations based on fallible human reasoning. Who is right? I believe that one's relationship with Jesus Christ and following His commandments are of significantly greater importance than getting hung up on how different groups of Christians interpret the historicity of the Bible.

Just because I accept evolution doesn't mean that I reject the concept of sin. Nor does evolution necessarily preclude the existence of Adam and Eve. They may have been the first hominids capable of fully understanding right from wrong, or they may have been the first hominids to whom God revealed Himself, or any number of other possibilities. At any rate, I do believe that the creation account in Genesis is true but in a metaphorical or at least somewhat-less-than-literal sense. So I still believe in the infallibility of the Bible, even if my interpretation of the Bible's truth doesn't match up with yours.
 
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