Why has science always been the bad guy

[idav]

I believe that one's relationship with Jesus Christ and following His commandments are of significantly greater importance than getting hung up on how different groups of Christians interpret the historicity of the Bible.

No doubt on this, I doubt jesus would very hung up on how we answer science questions. I suppose it effects how we answer theology questions but even then. All that is secondary to spirtual purity. If scientists are going to hell just for figuring out gods handy work, doesnt seem very fair, as if knowledge of god and the mechanisms is a big no no.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

[youtube]6oxTMUTOz0w[/youtube]
The Erosion of Progress by Religions - YouTube



Its relevant to the op.

Hahaha I just found it myself. It's a great speech.

 

[metis]

I believe one simply cannot be both a macro-evolutionist and a (true) Christian.

Then you simply do not agree with your own scriptures, plus you're essentially stating that now you are the judge of exactly how the issue of salvation is going to be handled by God, and that's quite assuming. Where exactly does it say in the "N.T." that one must reject the basic concept of evolution in order to be "saved", especially since there are so many who believe in "theistic evolution"?

 

[metis]

What would you do if someone who claimed to be your friend told terrible lies about you?

Seeing some scriptural narratives as being allegory, a metaphor, or a parable, simply doesn't in any way imply that God is lying.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Scientists are people too with religious and secular beliefs. God forbid (literally) that any scientist question their religious beliefs or agree with secular logic.

The universe is billions of years old, the earth is round and evolution is true. Scientists are not boogeymen out to get religion, they are trying to understand the world through observation and we keep finding that superstition has to take the back burner, sorry.

Bad guy? When scientists are persecuted, arrested, convicted, or even killed for their scientific beliefs, then cry to me about how science is the "bad guy".

 

[Skwim]

Bad guy? When scientists are persecuted, arrested, convicted, or even killed for their scientific beliefs, then cry to me about how science is the "bad guy".

So, the only "bad people" are those who have been persecuted, arrested, convicted, or killed for their beliefs. Interesting turn of definition you present. Hardly reasonable, but certainly interesting. Which makes me ask; what are your requirements for being a "good guy"? One who gives away every cent he makes to animal shelters, or donates both his kidneys while still alive?

 

[idav]

Bad guy? When scientists are persecuted, arrested, convicted, or even killed for their scientific beliefs, then cry to me about how science is the "bad guy".

Sure here is a list for your reading.

Turing was famously chemically-castrated after admitting to homosexual acts in the 1950s. He is one of a long line of scientists who have been persecuted for their beliefs or practices
Galileo to Turing: the persecution of scientists throughout history (Wired UK)

Rhazes (865-925)
Michael Servetus (1511-1553)
Galileo
 (1564-1642)
Henry Oldenburg (1619-1677)
Gerhard Domagk (1895-1964)
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Galileo to Turing: the persecution of scientists throughout history (Wired UK)

 

[rusra02]

So basically you are saying that accepting evolution is a ticket directly to Hell regardless an individual's other beliefs, lifestyle or relationship with Christ. Interesting...

So what does that mean for people who accept other interpretations in different areas of the Bible? Compare "once saved always saved" believers to "you can lose your salvation" believers. Only one of those doctrines is true so the other must be false. Does this mean that all individuals in the "wrong" group must necessarily go to Hell? How about people long ago who believed that Christian theology necessitated the Earth being at the center of the Universe with the Sun and stars orbiting it because humans were so important in the eyes of God? Today we know they were wrong. Are they in Hell now because they taught a non-truth? When it comes to Revelation, there are many different interpretations. Come to think of it, there are probably no two people on Earth who share 100% of their interpretations of all verses in the Bible. Surely almost everyone has at least a few "wrong" interpretations. Does this mean that almost every Christian goes to Hell because they no doubt are wrong about some things?

For you friend analogy, there is a difference between intentionally spreading lies about someone and saying things about them that they genuinely believe are true. If I had an online friend who said that I was a female and really believed that I was female, I would not have anywhere near as much of a problem with that as I would if they knew that I was a male and told others that I was a female for some malicious purpose. Very difference scenarios.

As far as "private" interpretation goes, there is a major problem with that. All denominations believe that their interpretation is God's truth and that all others are private interpretations based on fallible human reasoning. Who is right? I believe that one's relationship with Jesus Christ and following His commandments are of significantly greater importance than getting hung up on how different groups of Christians interpret the historicity of the Bible.

Just because I accept evolution doesn't mean that I reject the concept of sin. Nor does evolution necessarily preclude the existence of Adam and Eve. They may have been the first hominids capable of fully understanding right from wrong, or they may have been the first hominids to whom God revealed Himself, or any number of other possibilities. At any rate, I do believe that the creation account in Genesis is true but in a metaphorical or at least somewhat-less-than-literal sense. So I still believe in the infallibility of the Bible, even if my interpretation of the Bible's truth doesn't match up with yours.

Do you believe in both evolution and hellfire? I don't believe in a literal, burning hell that sinners are dropped into to spend eternity. That is one of the malicious lies told about the true God, IMO. The Bible says; "the dead know nothing at all" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) As for those persons in the past who were ignorant of God's will, Acts 24:15 promises "that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." I believe then resurrected ones will have the opportunity to learn about the true God in a cleansed earth with the prospect of living forever. (Isaiah 11:9) As to Adam, Genesis 2:7 informs us that "Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person." This description of Adam's creation precludes any evolution from a previously existing creature. I believe strongly the Bible's account of creation and the ToME cannot be successfully reconciled.
I too believe it is important to keep Christ's commands. How many professed Christians do you think really are striving to obey Christ in all things?

 

[rusra02]

Then you simply do not agree with your own scriptures, plus you're essentially stating that now you are the judge of exactly how the issue of salvation is going to be handled by God, and that's quite assuming. Where exactly does it say in the "N.T." that one must reject the basic concept of evolution in order to be "saved", especially since there are so many who believe in "theistic evolution"?

How is it that I do not agree with the scriptures, as you claim? I believe I said one cannot be a true Christian and a macro evolutionist at the same time. I did not mention being saved. But I agrees with what Jesus said at John 4:23,24 "Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”
Whatever we call ourselves, if we are not worshipping God with truth, believing and teaching the truth about him, we are not true worshipers, as Jesus said. (John 18:37)

 

[idav]

How is it that I do not agree with the scriptures, as you claim? I believe I said one cannot be a true Christian and a macro evolutionist at the same time.

That is the ridiculous assertion part cause the bible doesn't talk about evolution whatsoever.

I can rephrase it two different ways. Your saying you can't be a true christian and believe in evolution correctly.

Or I can phrase it, you can't be a true christian unless you take the adam and eve account rather literally. I don't think most christians would agree with you on that but to each their own I guess. The genesis account simply can't be taken literally if your going to believe science and current knowledge. Major religions have already had to back out on that, take Genesis figuratively, and they have to or they will weed themselves out.

 

[metis]

How is it that I do not agree with the scriptures, as you claim? I believe I said one cannot be a true Christian and a macro evolutionist at the same time. I did not mention being saved. But I agrees with what Jesus said at John 4:23,24 "Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”
Whatever we call ourselves, if we are not worshipping God with truth, believing and teaching the truth about him, we are not true worshipers, as Jesus said. (John 18:37)

Well, let's clear the air here a bit: do you believe that a self-proclaimed Christian who says they believe in evolution be "saved" if they continue with this belief until death?

Secondly, since the Bible doesn't say anything about evolution, which also implies it's not condemned, then why is it you believe that one who knows that evolution has indeed happened is not a "true Christian"?

 

[Parsimony]

Do you believe in both evolution and hellfire? I don't believe in a literal, burning hell that sinners are dropped into to spend eternity. That is one of the malicious lies told about the true God, IMO. The Bible says; "the dead know nothing at all" (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

I actually don't know what to believe about Hell, but I would like to believe as you do concerning it (since it seems more compatible with a good God to me).

As for those persons in the past who were ignorant of God's will, Acts 24:15 promises "that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." I believe then resurrected ones will have the opportunity to learn about the true God in a cleansed earth with the prospect of living forever. (Isaiah 11:9) As to Adam, Genesis 2:7 informs us that "Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person." This description of Adam's creation precludes any evolution from a previously existing creature. I believe strongly the Bible's account of creation and the ToME cannot be successfully reconciled.

Okay, say evolution is wrong. If we are all going to be resurrected and taught the truth that evolution is wrong, then what's the big deal? We'll all have a chance to admit that we are wrong and then get on the right track. Then why does it matter if we believe that the evidence strongly points in favor of evolution today? It would be nothing more than an honest mistake.

I too believe it is important to keep Christ's commands. How many professed Christians do you think really are striving to obey Christ in all things?

Probably not that many, to be honest.

 

[rusra02]

I actually don't know what to believe about Hell, but I would like to believe as you do concerning it (since it seems more compatible with a good God to me).


Okay, say evolution is wrong. If we are all going to be resurrected and taught the truth that evolution is wrong, then what's the big deal? We'll all have a chance to admit that we are wrong and then get on the right track. Then why does it matter if we believe that the evidence strongly points in favor of evolution today? It would be nothing more than an honest mistake.


Probably not that many, to be honest.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. As to why it is important to know the truth today, I believe that God's "will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth." (1 Timothy 2:3,4) Unlike times past, I believe we are living in a time when great changes are at hand. (Revelation 14:6,7) Jesus spoke about these days and compared them to the days before the Deluge of Noah's day. (Matthew 24:37-39) the Bible warns of "the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people." (2 Peter 3:7) I believe each person must take urgent action to come to know the true God, and escape from this doomed system of things. The destruction of the wicked, according to God's Word, will be permanent, an everlasting destruction from which no resurrection is possible. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9) I believe God is now kindly giving people opportunity to hear and respond to the truth. (Matthew 24:14, 2 Peter 3:9)

 

[psychoslice]

I feel that many religious people are afraid of what science have to say, because they are afraid that their belief will be busted, their whole life is built on that belief, therefore they will try to protect that belief no matter what.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Religiosity has been generally losing ground internationally for decades now, .. and science is a convenient whipping-boy.

IMHO, the problem is the over-emphasis on revealed books which do not allow changes in religious thoughts. Hinduism is placed a little better because we have many Gods and Goddesses. The revelation by one does not necessarily apply to another. What the Vaishnavas (worshipers of Lord Vishnu) say may not apply to Shaivas (worshipers of Lord Shiva), and what Shaivas say may not apply to the Shaktas (worshipers of the Mother Goddess), and what the Shaktas say may not apply to the Smartas (those who go by the Vedas).

 

[Aupmanyav]

I believe that God's "will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth." (1 Timothy 2:3,4) (Revelation 14:6,7) Jesus spoke about these days and compared them to the days before the Deluge of Noah's day. (Matthew 24:37-39) the Bible warns of "the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people." (2 Peter 3:7) I believe each person must take urgent action to come to know the true God, and escape from this doomed system of things. The destruction of the wicked, according to God's Word, will be permanent, an everlasting destruction from which no resurrection is possible. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9) I believe God is now kindly giving people opportunity to hear and respond to the truth. (Matthew 24:14, 2 Peter 3:9)

(John 12:40) And God hardens the heart of some and makes them blind to his glory. So many contradictory statements here. I do not know what to believe and what not to believe.

 

[idav]

I feel that many religious people are afraid of what science have to say, because they are afraid that their belief will be busted, their whole life is built on that belief, therefore they will try to protect that belief no matter what.

That is the toughest thing about worldviews. I won't hinge my worldview on just one or two favorite sacred texts at the expense of knowledge and truth. Even if those two favorite books say they are the knowledge and truth, those things can be tested. The real observations we and our peers make shouldn't be outright denied, these things can be tested and verified.

 

[Mycroft]

Scientists are people too with religious and secular beliefs. God forbid (literally) that any scientist question their religious beliefs or agree with secular logic.

The universe is billions of years old, the earth is round and evolution is true. Scientists are not boogeymen out to get religion, they are trying to understand the world through observation and we keep finding that superstition has to take the back burner, sorry.

People fear that of which they have little or no understanding. That's on the one hand, anyway. On the other, particularly among the religious, they feel as though their position of differential advantage (their beliefs) are being threatened.

 

[outhouse]

People fear that of which they have little or no understanding. That's on the one hand, anyway. On the other, particularly among the religious, they feel as though their position of differential advantage (their beliefs) are being threatened.

Exactly

Science walks around with a giant club called REALITY that will smack the mythology right out of those who ask for it.

 

[rusra02]

(John 12:40) And God hardens the heart of some and makes them blind to his glory. So many contradictory statements here. I do not know what to believe and what not to believe.

I believe God wants people to accept the truth. (2 Peter 3:9) For example, God told the Israelites; "Today if you listen to his voice, do not harden your hearts as on the occasion of provoking to bitter anger" (Hebrews 3:8) Regarding John 12:40, the context reveals the heart attitude of those whose hearts were hardened;"Although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him." (John 12:37) 1 Samuel 6:6 says;"Why should you harden your heart as Egypt and Phar′aoh hardened their hearts?" Exodus 10:1 says "Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Go in to Pharʹaoh, for I have allowed his heart and the hearts of his servants to become unresponsive, so that I may display these signs of mine right before him." Some translations say Jehovah hardened his heart, but it was really Pharaoh's reaction to God's dealing with him that caused his heart to harden.
Because their reaction to the message Christ taught revealed the hardness of their heart, John 12:40 speaks about their hearts being hardened. This was the same reaction the Israelites had to the prophesying of Isaiah (Isaiah 6:9,10) God allowed their hearts to be hardened by having his purposes published, revealing their true heart condition.