Why have Christians forgotten the fourth Commandment?

[sojourner]

only if you keep the commandments.

We have kept the commandments, because we have loved. God is not concerned with a museum of past method. God is concerned about spirituality. Spirituality is (according to Anthony de Mello) that which brings about inner transformation. He says "A blanket is not a blanket if it does not keep you warm." Religion is not spirituality if it is not transformative, as God is transformative. When Jesus came, a new paradigm was introduced and therefore, we no longer observe the record of past method. We live the new covenant.

The fact is you can pick and choose
You can pick and choose as to keep Gods sabbath
You can pick and choose as whether to kill
You can pick and choose as to whether you commit adultry

Its your choice, but you must live or die with your choice

AND IT IS YOUR CHOICE

choose wisely

And you can pick and choose whether to live out of spirituality or the record of past method, which is no longer spirituality for us.
Jesus commands you to step out of the boat into broader waters. But you're afraid you'll sink, so you sit tight in the little boat and do not experience either the breadth of Jesus' faith, or the extent of his mercy.

 

[BrasenWall]

And you can pick and choose whether to live out of spirituality or the record of past method, which is no longer spirituality for us.

The new testament

ROMANS 7 [14] For we know that THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

JOHN 4 [23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. [24] GOD IS A SPIRIT: AND THEY THAT WORSHIP HIM MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.

JOHN 14 [15] IF YE LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. [16] AND I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever; [17] EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. [18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. [19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. [20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. [21] HE THAT HATH MY COMMANDMENTS, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I WILL LOVE HIM, AND WILL MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM.

The above scriptures need not be explained. They speak for themselves.

Have a wonderful sanctified day.

 

[McBell]

The above scriptures need not be explained. They speak for themselves.

Have a wonderful sanctified day.

Really?
Interesting that there are those who disagree with your opinion as to what they "Say".
Perhaps you assume to much...?

 

[Ben Masada]

We have kept the commandments, because we have loved. God is not concerned with a museum of past method. God is concerned about spirituality. Spirituality is (according to Anthony de Mello) that which brings about inner transformation. He says "A blanket is not a blanket if it does not keep you warm." Religion is not spirituality if it is not transformative, as God is transformative. When Jesus came, a new paradigm was introduced and therefore, we no longer observe the record of past method. We live the new covenant.

And you can pick and choose whether to live out of spirituality or the record of past method, which is no longer spirituality for us.
Jesus commands you to step out of the boat into broader waters. But you're afraid you'll sink, so you sit tight in the little boat and do not experience either the breadth of Jesus' faith, or the extent of his mercy.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In my opinion, when Jesus came, no new paradigma was introduced. He rather left it very clear that there would be no change, as he confirmed the old pathern even to
the dot of the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19) The place to find an evidence for the change is
in Paul, who became the author of the "pick-and-choose" method, as long as one is
okay with his or her conscience.

Regardig the Sabbath for example to keep it holy as a commandment, Paul said that
either we choose to keep it or not, or even not to pick any of the other days would be okay, as long as the conscience would remain quiet about the decision. (Rom. 14;5,6) Anyway, as he wrote to the Colossians, even the Sabbath was among the Jewish things to constitute shadows of things to come. (Col. 2:16,17)

Since Paul was the founder of Christianity, his followers (Christians) are under no obligation to keep the Sabbath holy as a commandment. Their obligation is restricted to the Noahite laws.

Ben

 

[mikmik]

Ben Masada wrote;
Regardig the Sabbath for example to keep it holy as a commandment, Paul said that either we choose to keep it or not, or even not to pick any of the other days would be okay, as long as the conscience would remain quiet about the decision. (Rom. 14;5,6) Anyway, as he wrote to the Colossians, even the Sabbath was among the Jewish things to constitute shadows of things to come. (Col. 2:16,17)
************************************************************************************************

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]No where in Romans 14 does Paul mention the word Sabbath, yet alone verses 5-9 which are being credited with voiding the true Sabbath. You can go back and see that no where leading up to this is a debate or discussion about the Sabbath. There is no mention of a holy day, a sacred day, nothing. It is quite a leap to say that the mention of a day must be a reference to God's Sabbath.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Romans 14 starts with a discussion about food.. it looks like an internal debate about vegetarianism vs those that eat meat. I don't know what the exact problem is here, but they are very obviously talking about some difference of opinion over food. Some sources say that there were feasting and fasting days held by some members of the Church, and that they may have been arguing that point in verses 5-9. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Reading after verses 5-9, you see a discussion of clean and unclean meats.. that is, those meats which have been offered to other gods and idols. Paul tells them that this food is not unclean, which is given to them by God, but if the fact that it had been offered up makes them feel like it is unclean, and they prefer not to eat it, then they should not. But because others give no weight to the fact that it may have been offered to other gods, and still are able to receive it as food provided by God, and their minds are okay with that, they may eat that food. Paul makes the point that hey, this is not what the Kingdom is all about, and don't let these disagreements over, of all things, food, destroy the church and the oneness of the congregation. We need to focus on “righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (vs 17) By the way, any man called righteous in the Bible is know for being a follower of God's Commandments, Statutes and Laws.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So are we to actually believe that the format of Romans 14 goes like this:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Okay everyone, stop arguing over food.. If you want to eat meat, eat meat,, if you want to eat vegetables, eat them, but don't attack each other on something of so little importance. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Oh, and that day, that 4[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]th[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] commandment thing (which I just don't want to mention by name),, it's been around since the creation of man, but don't worry about that anymore. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Now back to our discussion about food.. stop fighting about the ritually clean and unclean foods.. this is not what the Kingdom is all about, we must stick to the issues of righteousness. (again, except for that little 4[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]th[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] commandment thing!)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]This would be an awkward flow of conversation and just wouldn't make much sense.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If you understand that he is saying; Stop arguing about meats and veggies, stop arguing about which days to feast or fast, and stop arguing about which food are ritually clean and unclean, because the Kingdom is about none of these things... this would make complete sense.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What does Paul say about commandments in his epistle to the Romans? “...for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified” Rom 2.13) “... the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.” (Rom 7.12) “...I delight in the law of God” (Rom 7.22) [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]mik[/FONT]

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben Masada wrote;
Regardig the Sabbath for example to keep it holy as a commandment, Paul said that either we choose to keep it or not, or even not to pick any of the other days would be okay, as long as the conscience would remain quiet about the decision. (Rom. 14;5,6) Anyway, as he wrote to the Colossians, even the Sabbath was among the Jewish things to constitute shadows of things to come. (Col. 2:16,17)
************************************************************************************************

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]No where in Romans 14 does Paul mention the word Sabbath, yet alone verses 5-9 which are being credited with voiding the true Sabbath. You can go back and see that no where leading up to this is a debate or discussion about the Sabbath. There is no mention of a holy day, a sacred day, nothing. It is quite a leap to say that the mention of a day must be a reference to God's Sabbath.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Romans 14 starts with a discussion about food.. it looks like an internal debate about vegetarianism vs those that eat meat. I don't know what the exact problem is here, but they are very obviously talking about some difference of opinion over food. Some sources say that there were feasting and fasting days held by some members of the Church, and that they may have been arguing that point in verses 5-9. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Reading after verses 5-9, you see a discussion of clean and unclean meats.. that is, those meats which have been offered to other gods and idols. Paul tells them that this food is not unclean, which is given to them by God, but if the fact that it had been offered up makes them feel like it is unclean, and they prefer not to eat it, then they should not. But because others give no weight to the fact that it may have been offered to other gods, and still are able to receive it as food provided by God, and their minds are okay with that, they may eat that food. Paul makes the point that hey, this is not what the Kingdom is all about, and don't let these disagreements over, of all things, food, destroy the church and the oneness of the congregation. We need to focus on “righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (vs 17) By the way, any man called righteous in the Bible is know for being a follower of God's Commandments, Statutes and Laws.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So are we to actually believe that the format of Romans 14 goes like this:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Okay everyone, stop arguing over food.. If you want to eat meat, eat meat,, if you want to eat vegetables, eat them, but don't attack each other on something of so little importance. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Oh, and that day, that 4[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]th[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] commandment thing (which I just don't want to mention by name),, it's been around since the creation of man, but don't worry about that anymore. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Now back to our discussion about food.. stop fighting about the ritually clean and unclean foods.. this is not what the Kingdom is all about, we must stick to the issues of righteousness. (again, except for that little 4[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]th[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] commandment thing!)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]This would be an awkward flow of conversation and just wouldn't make much sense.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If you understand that he is saying; Stop arguing about meats and veggies, stop arguing about which days to feast or fast, and stop arguing about which food are ritually clean and unclean, because the Kingdom is about none of these things... this would make complete sense.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What does Paul say about commandments in his epistle to the Romans? “...for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified” Rom 2.13) “... the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.” (Rom 7.12) “...I delight in the law of God” (Rom 7.22) [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]mik[/FONT]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do you have to see to believe, "Thomas?" Blessed are those who are able to see between the lines. Go back to Romans 14 and read verse 5 again. What day is Paul referring to as "esteeming one day above another," Monday, Friday, what day? Como on! Then, he says in v. 6 that to regard a day (Sabbath) regards to the Lord. And if he or she does not regard any, to the Lord he does. To the Lord it's all indifferent.
And to tell you the truth, he was right. God cares nothing about what day we choose
or if we don't choose any at all. It's all the same. "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath." It means we can do with it whatever we want.

Ben :clap

 

[mikmik]

Ben Masada wrote;
Do you have to see to believe, "Thomas?" Blessed are those who are able to see between the lines. Go back to Romans 14 and read verse 5 again. What day is Paul referring to as "esteeming one day above another," Monday, Friday, what day? Como on! Then, he says in v. 6 that to regard a day (Sabbath) regards to the Lord. And if he or she does not regard any, to the Lord he does. To the Lord it's all indifferent. And to tell you the truth, he was right. God cares nothing about what day we choose or if we don't choose any at all. It's all the same. "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath." It means we can do with it whatever we want.
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]****************************************************[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I refuse to use my imagination to understand scripture, or to just make up things that aren't there to make a point. That hardly qualifies as doubting the truth, or lacking faith. I would never even pretend to understand the mind of God, or try to tell anyone what He meant. That's what the Book is for. We were warned to “not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it”, so I will not fill in some imaginary blanks with what my mind sees as the best-guess implied meaning. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Be careful, and take notice that Paul began his address to the Romans pointing out that in “Professing to be wise, they became fools”. People were turning from the righteous ways taught to them directly from the Word, to new doctrines of men, because the men there decided that they knew what God really meant, and they knew what the Word implies,, they were wise in their minds, so they carried on (big mistake). Paul was not addressing them to make fundamental doctrinal changes within the church, there is no evidence of that. His corrections were for the different practices and ceremonies, and new ideas that were beginning to appear throughout the church there, causing division. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You can't support the idea that the Sabbath was canceled with an implied verse somewhere that would say exactly that if you added in a couple of extra words. Try cross referencing to back your theory. As I quoted before, he stated several other times that the Law was good, and necessary, so to set that next to the theory that he later decided to cancel the Sabbath would have the Bible contradicting itself. I for one do not believe that is possible. If I find two verses that look like they are contradicting each other, I assume that I am in error and need to further study. Paul also said to them “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not!” (3.31) Not only did he teach the Law, coupled with the testemony of Christ of course, he also kept the Sabbath, as did Jesus Christ, our perfect example of righteousness, and the firstfruits of God's family. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]No where in the rest of the Bible is a Sabbath (weekly or annual) referred to as a day that is esteemed. They are called holy, sanctified, on high days, sacred,, but not esteemed days. God sanctified the Sabbath, which means he created it as completely separated from the others, and made holy, by Him. The Sabbath isn't even in the same league as the other days. It is God's day, and usually referred to as My Sabbath. It was made for man, but my mind doesn't go automatically to 'wow, dude, that means I can do whatever I want with it, including destroy it!' I accept it as an 'as-is' gift, and treasure it in it's original form, the form it took when He so carefully created it for me, and gave it to me. What a wonderful labor of love the creation of the Sabbath for man really was! I choose to respect that.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What days are esteemed by man? Thanksgiving, mother's day, birthdays, etc. Also, in my church, we have designated days that we congregate and feast together, and we have a day or two every year when we have a full congregational fast, to pray and seek out God's direction on particularly tough items or decisions. I imagine there is some debate over which days to do which in my church in this modern day, just as we see happening to them in Romans 14. And I, when I feast, give my thanks in prayer, and feast to the Lord. When I do not eat, to the Lord I do not eat it. I may not observe some other guy's birthday in the congregation, but I still live that day to the Lord. The big difference here is, the Sabbath is God's holy day, we humans can't create anything holy, only He can. We can hold something in higher esteem, but that is our doing, not God's. Paul never directed any of his correction towards anything that God created, only towards what men were coming up with.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You can most certainly hold to your belief that the Sabbath is void somehow,, I'm just saying you should use a Bible reference that actually is addressing the Sabbath. Romans 14 is all about man's idea's and issues with food (what to eat, not eat, when, which foods, etc..)that is dividing the congregation and creating animosity amongst the brothern within. In summing up Chapter 14, Paul says “Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food.”.. not speaking for the sake of days, commandments, Sabbaths, etc.. but 'for the sake of food'. He himself made his meaning, and the target of his correction very clear. It's all about the food![/FONT]

mik

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben Masada wrote;
Do you have to see to believe, "Thomas?" Blessed are those who are able to see between the lines. Go back to Romans 14 and read verse 5 again. What day is Paul referring to as "esteeming one day above another," Monday, Friday, what day? Como on! Then, he says in v. 6 that to regard a day (Sabbath) regards to the Lord. And if he or she does not regard any, to the Lord he does. To the Lord it's all indifferent. And to tell you the truth, he was right. God cares nothing about what day we choose or if we don't choose any at all. It's all the same. "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath." It means we can do with it whatever we want.
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]****************************************************[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I refuse to use my imagination to understand scripture, or to just make up things that aren't there to make a point. That hardly qualifies as doubting the truth, or lacking faith. I would never even pretend to understand the mind of God, or try to tell anyone what He meant. That's what the Book is for. We were warned to “not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it”, so I will not fill in some imaginary blanks with what my mind sees as the best-guess implied meaning. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Be careful, and take notice that Paul began his address to the Romans pointing out that in “Professing to be wise, they became fools”. People were turning from the righteous ways taught to them directly from the Word, to new doctrines of men, because the men there decided that they knew what God really meant, and they knew what the Word implies,, they were wise in their minds, so they carried on (big mistake). Paul was not addressing them to make fundamental doctrinal changes within the church, there is no evidence of that. His corrections were for the different practices and ceremonies, and new ideas that were beginning to appear throughout the church there, causing division. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You can't support the idea that the Sabbath was canceled with an implied verse somewhere that would say exactly that if you added in a couple of extra words. Try cross referencing to back your theory. As I quoted before, he stated several other times that the Law was good, and necessary, so to set that next to the theory that he later decided to cancel the Sabbath would have the Bible contradicting itself. I for one do not believe that is possible. If I find two verses that look like they are contradicting each other, I assume that I am in error and need to further study. Paul also said to them “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not!” (3.31) Not only did he teach the Law, coupled with the testemony of Christ of course, he also kept the Sabbath, as did Jesus Christ, our perfect example of righteousness, and the firstfruits of God's family. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]No where in the rest of the Bible is a Sabbath (weekly or annual) referred to as a day that is esteemed. They are called holy, sanctified, on high days, sacred,, but not esteemed days. God sanctified the Sabbath, which means he created it as completely separated from the others, and made holy, by Him. The Sabbath isn't even in the same league as the other days. It is God's day, and usually referred to as My Sabbath. It was made for man, but my mind doesn't go automatically to 'wow, dude, that means I can do whatever I want with it, including destroy it!' I accept it as an 'as-is' gift, and treasure it in it's original form, the form it took when He so carefully created it for me, and gave it to me. What a wonderful labor of love the creation of the Sabbath for man really was! I choose to respect that.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What days are esteemed by man? Thanksgiving, mother's day, birthdays, etc. Also, in my church, we have designated days that we congregate and feast together, and we have a day or two every year when we have a full congregational fast, to pray and seek out God's direction on particularly tough items or decisions. I imagine there is some debate over which days to do which in my church in this modern day, just as we see happening to them in Romans 14. And I, when I feast, give my thanks in prayer, and feast to the Lord. When I do not eat, to the Lord I do not eat it. I may not observe some other guy's birthday in the congregation, but I still live that day to the Lord. The big difference here is, the Sabbath is God's holy day, we humans can't create anything holy, only He can. We can hold something in higher esteem, but that is our doing, not God's. Paul never directed any of his correction towards anything that God created, only towards what men were coming up with.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You can most certainly hold to your belief that the Sabbath is void somehow,, I'm just saying you should use a Bible reference that actually is addressing the Sabbath. Romans 14 is all about man's idea's and issues with food (what to eat, not eat, when, which foods, etc..)that is dividing the congregation and creating animosity amongst the brothern within. In summing up Chapter 14, Paul says “Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food.”.. not speaking for the sake of days, commandments, Sabbaths, etc.. but 'for the sake of food'. He himself made his meaning, and the target of his correction very clear. It's all about the food![/FONT]

mik

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Greetings Mik,

Can you show me in the NT Paul keeping the Sabbath holy? Or keeping the law? I am not asking you to show me him saying anything about the Law or the Sabbath, but keeping or doing something for that matter.

I insist that the Sabbath was made for man, and man has all the right in the world to do with it what pleases him. You have chosen to keep it holy, and so do I. But to Paul it would make no difference which day one pick to keep it holy, and he was right. If someone else chooses to work all the 24 hours of the Sabbath, he is doing what he pleases with his Sabbath and nothing will happen to him. That's what I mean
and I stand up for what I said. In Roman 14:5 Paul was not talking about food. And I think I still understand English.

It's not my belief that the Sabbath is void. I do keep the Sabbath holy. My point is that if someone considers the Sabbath void, he has all the right to do it, because the Sabbath was given to him and not him to the Sabbath. Why do you find so hard to understand me?

Ben

 

[mikmik]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Greetings Mik,

Can you show me in the NT Paul keeping the Sabbath holy? Or keeping the law? I am not asking you to show me him saying anything about the Law or the Sabbath, but keeping or doing something for that matter.

I insist that the Sabbath was made for man, and man has all the right in the world to do with it what pleases him. You have chosen to keep it holy, and so do I. But to Paul it would make no difference which day one pick to keep it holy, and he was right. If someone else chooses to work all the 24 hours of the Sabbath, he is doing what he pleases with his Sabbath and nothing will happen to him. That's what I mean
and I stand up for what I said. In Roman 14:5 Paul was not talking about food. And I think I still understand English.

It's not my belief that the Sabbath is void. I do keep the Sabbath holy. My point is that if someone considers the Sabbath void, he has all the right to do it, because the Sabbath was given to him and not him to the Sabbath. Why do you find so hard to understand me?

Ben

Oh Sir Ben.. I absolutely understand you,, I understand that you mean what you say, and that you believe what you say. I just disagree with what you say, and believe you to be in error. But that's okay, I'm sure that the reverse is true. I still enjoy your posts and quizzing though, it helps keep me on my toes.

Why is it that you would not want to see what the NT church has to say about the Law as well as what they all did? What they were preaching was just as important as what they were doing, because their works were always drive by the words they lived by. As I said before, I believe the Bible to be a perfect book that can't contradict itself. So every word would support every other word in perfect harmony. Just wondering about that.

Oh, and I think I'm doing all right with my English skills as well.

mik

 

[Scuba Pete]

I believe the Bible to be a perfect book that can't contradict itself.

Yet scriptures never claim this. Why are you adding to the scriptures? Is this a common practice in your religion? Why not accept them as God intended them: inspired by him. No more and certainly no less.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. NIV

 

[Ben Masada]

Oh Sir Ben.. I absolutely understand you,, I understand that you mean what you say, and that you believe what you say. I just disagree with what you say, and believe you to be in error. But that's okay, I'm sure that the reverse is true. I still enjoy your posts and quizzing though, it helps keep me on my toes.

Why is it that you would not want to see what the NT church has to say about the Law as well as what they all did? What they were preaching was just as important as what they were doing, because their works were always drive by the words they lived by. As I said before, I believe the Bible to be a perfect book that can't contradict itself. So every word would support every other word in perfect harmony. Just wondering about that.

Oh, and I think I'm doing all right with my English skills as well.

mik

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Well my dear friend, I am glad we have become of the same mind on this subject
without fire having to come down from Heaven and consume both of us. (2 Kings
1:10)

Ben

 

[mikmik]

Yet scriptures never claim this. Why are you adding to the scriptures? Is this a common practice in your religion? Why not accept them as God intended them: inspired by him. No more and certainly no less.

Are you kidding me? Pretty personal poke at myself and my religion don't you think,, I mean, for not knowing anything about either... talk about adding words!

What I said was... "I believe the Bible to be a perfect book that can't contradict itself"... There are no Bible quotes there, no inserted words there, just a statement of a belief that I have. If you wanted to know what I base my personal belief on, that would be a fair question.

What the Bible does say... The Scriptures are referred to as Holy in the Bible; that makes them a special creation of God. God is perfect, His way is perfect, His word is perfect, He is just and righteous, the word of the Lord is proven, God is able to make us perfect, God's word is able to make us perfect, God is perfect in knowledge, the Law of the Lord is perfect, the will of God is perfect, Jesus Christ is perfect, and we should use the God inspired Scriptures to correct ourselves, to guide our paths, to work towards righteousness. And I am to assume that all of this divine perfection created a book full of errors? Not a chance. I firmly believe that God's word, the Holy Scriptures, all of them, are perfect. I believe that translations of the Bible from its original text have (human) errors, but the original inspired writings are perfect,, again, I believe that. Otherwise, what's the point to the Bible?


Scripture that supports my belief... (partial list, there are many more)

2 Tim 3.14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.


Duet 32.4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

2 Sam 22. 31 As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the LORD is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him....... vs 33 God is my strength and power, And He makes my way perfect.

Job 36.2 “Bear with me a little, and I will show you That there are yet words to speak on God’s behalf. 3 I will fetch my knowledge from afar; I will ascribe righteousness to my Maker. 4 For truly my words are not false; One who is perfect in knowledge is with you.

Psalm 19.7 The law of the LORD is perfect...

Psalm 101.6 My eyes shall be on the faithful of the land,That they may dwell with me; He who walks in a perfect way

Matt 5.48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Rom 12. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Heb 4.15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

James 1.17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Are you kidding me? Pretty personal poke at myself and my religion don't you think,, I mean, for not knowing anything about either... talk about adding words!

No poke. A sincere question. Sorry if it made you think. You should realize that while some parts of scripture claim to be "the word of the Lord", most of it does not lay claim to that. John 1 identifies the true word, and Hebrews 1 confirms that. You can claim the Bible to be perfect, but you simply can't find that in scripture. I am not going to add or subtract from the Scriptures. We make too many assumptions that way.

The OT makes a WONDERFUL promise. God's law will be written on our hearts. The NT picks up on this several times and I love it. This such an obvious reference to the Holy Spirit which every Christian has. Scriptures were never meant to be another rule book, but a training manual.

When I teach diving, I use a manual. Teaching diving as merely a set of rules defeats the whole purpose of getting certified. In reality, I only have four rules. 1) Don't stop Breathing 2) You can call a dive at any time *NO QUESTIONS ASKED 3) Stay less than 15 seconds away from your buddy and the fourth (and most important) 4) Have fun and look cool.

All the other parts I teach are skills and knowledge.

Now, Christians are bound by only two laws: 1) Love God and 2) Love Everyone else. The scriptures provide a framework of social and service skills by which we learn how to effectively love one another.

The problem with legalists is the one described by Paul in Galatians 5. You are exchanging the FREEDOM we have in Jesus for a bunch of rules and regulations. You are trying to be justified by following these rules, rather than trying to outdo one another in love. You have gone past regarding the scriptures as "useful" and have turned them into something mandatory. Brethren, this ought not to be!

 

[mikmik]

You should realize that while some parts of scripture claim to be "the word of the Lord", most of it does not lay claim to that. John 1 identifies the true word, and Hebrews 1 confirms that. You can claim the Bible to be perfect, but you simply can't find that in scripture. I am not going to add or subtract from the Scriptures. We make too many assumptions that way.

There are lots of things I'd really like to address with you,, but I notice on these forums, if you bring up more than one point, the other will be ignored. So let me just ask you about this... I quoted lots of scriptures (with out adding or taking from them) showing the perfection of God, Jesus, Their way, word,,really everything having to do with the will and way of God. Then we have... 2 Tim 3.14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So I guess I don't understand. Do you believe God is perfect? Do you believe that Jesus is perfect? "All scripture is ispired by God", so do you believe that God inspired some scripture to be imperfect,, but it would still meet the criteria stated above? ("profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work") I really just don't understand what you believe and where it comes from. That is soooo not a put down, I just haven't gotten to that point where I can at least say,, okay I understand, I just don't agree.. you know?

I know this isn't exactly a Sabbath issue, but everything I believe comes from 'all scripture',, so it is at least a related topic.

mik

 

[mikmik]

While I am at it here,, hey Ben, how about you? Same questions.

And BrasenWall, I read some of your posts and thought they were great, but you have been quiet for a long while now, where oh where did you go?????

mik

 

[Yid613]

. . . Scriptures were never meant to be another rule book, but a training manual.

When I teach diving, I use a manual. Teaching diving as merely a set of rules defeats the whole purpose of getting certified. . . .

Don’t you use decompression tables? Aren’t they a set of rules? You don’t guess how much nitrogen is in your blood.

Jews follow the OT. We don’t guess about the spiritual consequences of our actions.

 

[mikmik]

Don’t you use decompression tables? Aren’t they a set of rules? You don’t guess how much nitrogen is in your blood.

Jews follow the OT. We don’t guess about the spiritual consequences of our actions.

Absolutely. And another question to those that believe the Law is nothing.. You believe it is written in our hearts now instead of the tablets. So doesn't that mean that the Law still exsists, and is still written. That hardly makes it void,, doesn't that make it even more permanent? The purpose of writing it in our hearts.. giving us His Holy Spirit, is to make us understand the even deeper meaning of the Law. (Like do not murder.. written in our hearts and with the help of the HS, it is then understood to mean don't even hate. Don't commit adultary becomes don't even look with lustful eyes and thoughts.) So would that not make resting on the Sabbath become delight, love and rejoice in Sabbath?

mik

 

[Ben Masada]

Absolutely. And another question to those that believe the Law is nothing.. You believe it is written in our hearts now instead of the tablets. So doesn't that mean that the Law still exsists, and is still written. That hardly makes it void,, doesn't that make it even more permanent? The purpose of writing it in our hearts.. giving us His Holy Spirit, is to make us understand the even deeper meaning of the Law. (Like do not murder.. written in our hearts and with the help of the HS, it is then understood to mean don't even hate. Don't commit adultary becomes don't even look with lustful eyes and thoughts.) So would that not make resting on the Sabbath become delight, love and rejoice in Sabbath?

mik

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Way to go mik! This time I agree with you to the letter.

Ben :clap

 

[mikmik]

Scriptures were never meant to be another rule book, but a training manual....

You are exchanging the FREEDOM we have in Jesus for a bunch of rules and regulations.... You have gone past regarding the scriptures as "useful" and have turned them into something mandatory. Brethren, this ought not to be!

How would you explain this then?

Matt 5.18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Would you suppose that Jesus was mistaking? Maybe He didn't foresee that Paul would 'cacel' one of His Father's commandments?

mik

 

[mikmik]

...Now, Christians are bound by only two laws: 1) Love God and 2) Love Everyone else. The scriptures provide a framework of social and service skills by which we learn how to effectively love one another....

Another point, about this scripture;
Matt 22.36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

He was asked which is the greatest commandment in the law (there are 10 commandments in the Law, correct?) His answer was indeed loving God, and loving your neighbor. He was not then asked, hey, those aren't commandments, are those new? Why not? Becuase of the next statement,, on these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. He was summing up the commandments into two catagories.. Love your God (by following 1-4), and love your neighbor (5-10). They understood He was not introducing anything new, or replacing anything, or voiding anything, simply summing them up for us. Like you would tell your kids.. You tell them all the time, don't hit, don't kick, don't yell at each other, stop fighting, etc.. Well, that has been said so many times that eventually you just say; Look, BE NICE to eachother, that's all I want. Does that mean they won't get into trouble if they kick or hit, if they truly love eachother, and were really trying to be nice? Not a chance. My summary of the rules does not then make it only a suggestion that they be nice by not kicking, it is still a firm rule, no kicking!

mik