Why have Christians forgotten the fourth Commandment?

[angellous_evangellous]

The Mongols and the Turks killed a lot of people and the Arabs did a lot of killing while they swept across North Africa. (the same genocide is still going on today) Chairman Mao was not a Christian and he killed more people than any other single man. Anti-Christians like to condemn the Crusades but they never would have happened, in the first place, if it was not for the military conquests of the Muslims.
So, to condemn Paul for inventing a murderous religion is a little questionable, to me.

It's just mindless trolling.

 

[AK4]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That's what you think because you haven't studied the Book of Acts as you should, as well as Paul's Letters to the churches.

The Apostles founded the Sect of the Nazarenes soon after Jesus' crucifixion and Paul used to persecute the Nazarenes until the Road to Damascus, and Psychologogically from then on till his last station in Rome.

With reference to Jesus, if he was around when Paul started spreading his things about Jesus, this would have been the first to rise against him. Paul succeeded only
because Jesus was dead already about 30 years when Paul started preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected.

Last but not least, to more properly answer your question, I have against Paul to have founded a religion that has shedded more Jewish blood through Christian progroms, Christian Crusades, Christian Inquisition and lately, the Holocaust than all the wars we have faced.
Ben:sorry1:

So if what you say is true then why would Peter agree with Paul?

2Peter 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

Even after Paul confronted Peter about his hypocrisy, Peter writes a letter that is still agreeing with Paul after this confrontation.
53 A.D. (Spring) : Book of Galatians 64 to 65 A.D. :Book of 1Peter65 to 66 A.D. :Book of 2Peter

Galatians 2:11-21 11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? 15 "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Why would John Mark (I think that was him) who wrote the gospel Mark and Acts travel and record everything Paul did if he (Paul) contradidted anything that went against the gospel that he wrote?

You dont have a leg to stand on

 

[InGodWeTrust]

The end is here. We are living in apocalyptic times, ever since the preaching of John the Baptist.
The fact that we, as gentiles, can be brought into the salvation that Jesus says is of the Jews, is evidence that we are living in prophetic times.
The Jewish Christians had a little bit of a narrow view about Biblical prophesy being fulfilled. They focused on how it affected themselves. Paul was necessary because he looked at the wider implications of the "end times" that called for the in-gathering of all the nations.
I am a beneficiary of the work of Paul. I fully expect to gain from all the promises and blessings of the Bible, without becoming a Jew. I feel I am required to do one thing, though, and that is to acknowledge who God is. That is something that is made clear by the Sabbath. It represents three great works of God. Creation, Exodus and Salvation.
God enacted the ordnance of the Sabbath to commemorate Creation. God brought Israel out of the environment of Egypt with its ten day week and taught them and brought back to their remembrance, the seven day week. Jesus worked out our salvation and rested on the Sabbath.
If I, according to my personal convictions, throw away the Sabbath, I am throwing away my own salvation. This is my connection to my God. It is how I identify what God I am following. Until another religion pops up that worships on the seventh day, I feel I am good. (meaning I do not have to make any additional changes, to differentiate my God from some other god.)

 

[AK4]

The end is here. We are living in apocalyptic times, ever since the preaching of John the Baptist.
The fact that we, as gentiles, can be brought into the salvation that Jesus says is of the Jews, is evidence that we are living in prophetic times.
The Jewish Christians had a little bit of a narrow view about Biblical prophesy being fulfilled. They focused on how it affected themselves. Paul was necessary because he looked at the wider implications of the "end times" that called for the in-gathering of all the nations.
I am a beneficiary of the work of Paul. I fully expect to gain from all the promises and blessings of the Bible, without becoming a Jew. I feel I am required to do one thing, though, and that is to acknowledge who God is. That is something that is made clear by the Sabbath. It represents three great works of God. Creation, Exodus and Salvation.
God enacted the ordnance of the Sabbath to commemorate Creation. God brought Israel out of the environment of Egypt with its ten day week and taught them and brought back to their remembrance, the seven day week. Jesus worked out our salvation and rested on the Sabbath.
If I, according to my personal convictions, throw away the Sabbath, I am throwing away my own salvation. This is my connection to my God. It is how I identify what God I am following. Until another religion pops up that worships on the seventh day, I feel I am good. (meaning I do not have to make any additional changes, to differentiate my God from some other god.)

I do not want to infringe on your personal convictions but look at what i posted at the end of my last post by Paul--
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

That would include the Sabbath too. You are to worship him everday not just one specific day. You are trying to justify yourslef by observing the Sabbath. When you are in Christ you are free from the letter, but in spirit you are to worship everyday or a better way to put it--have the mind on Christ.

Sabbath observers are no different from any other people who BOAST that they do this and do that for the Lord. "I attend this church, the true church of God". "I have been circumcised". "I been baptised like this or that". "I observe this Holyday". "I dont eat swine". "I observe this day as my day of worship."etc etc.

Isnt it written that there is no room to boast? All that above is boasting. Those are all outwardly things, physical things that will perish.

Brother i was there too. I was a Sabbath keeper until God opened my eyes and set me free. It was a burden to try to keep the friday sunset to saturday sunset. With Christ we are free from any bondage.

I am not critizing you, but just think and BELEIVE how FREE in Christ you will be if you didnt have to have that burden of Sabbath keeping. Even the Jews thought the Sabbath was a burden.

 

[InGodWeTrust]

I do not want to infringe on your personal convictions but ...
... You are to worship him everday not just one specific day. You are trying to justify yourslef by observing the Sabbath. When you are in Christ you are free from the letter, but in spirit you are to worship everyday or a better way to put it--have the mind on Christ.
Sabbath observers are no different from any other people who BOAST that they do this and do that for the Lord. "I attend this church, the true church of God". "I have been circumcised". "I been baptised like this or that". "I observe this Holyday". "I dont eat swine". "I observe this day as my day of worship."etc etc.
Isnt it written that there is no room to boast? All that above is boasting. Those are all outwardly things, physical things that will perish.
Brother i was there too. I was a Sabbath keeper until God opened my eyes and set me free. It was a burden to try to keep the friday sunset to saturday sunset. With Christ we are free from any bondage.
I am not critizing you, but just think and BELEIVE how FREE in Christ you will be if you didnt have to have that burden of Sabbath keeping. Even the Jews thought the Sabbath was a burden.

I am a sinner. Years ago I was persuaded by people who's opinion I respected, to forget about The Sabbath. I took advantage of my freedom to take jobs that normally I had to turn down. Over twenty years or so, I gradually reversed my previous reversal. I ended up quitting a good job for one that did not require me to work on Saturday. My point is that I feel a lot more inclined to talk about the Sabbath in a positive way than I would have back when I did work on the Sabbath. I feel a lot more free in my spirit to not be under the continuous burden of knowing I was purposely breaking His Law.
I want to put this out in the open for everyone to call me a hypocrite, if you want. I am not telling anyone how to live their lives, when I was going into a period of my own life where my mind was in conflict and very miserable about myself.
If you want to think I am boasting, I am not. I am the most wretched of sinners, to know full well what I was doing and taking so long to finally give up the comfortable life I had, in order to follow my convictions.

 

[InGodWeTrust]

To make an actual point for my previous post; decisions that can affect your life are not easily reversible. If you later change your mind, it can cause personal problems. During all those years I never talked about it. I can, now. Not because I want to boast. Just happy to be able to say I believe in it.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I was a Sabbath keeper until God opened my eyes and set me free.

You know... it's really more like we are FIGHTING God to keep our eyes closed to the truth. We have our hands firmly drawn over our eyes and he pulls one away only to find that we have our eyes firmly squinched SHUT! Yet, he is patient with us as with a petulant child, gently trying to reason with us during our spiritual temper tantrum. None are so blind as those who will not see!

 

[AK4]

You know... it's really more like we are FIGHTING God to keep our eyes closed to the truth. We have our hands firmly drawn over our eyes and he pulls one away only to find that we have our eyes firmly squinched SHUT! Yet, he is patient with us as with a petulant child, gently trying to reason with us during our spiritual temper tantrum. None are so blind as those who will not see!

You are right. I cant boast and say i know more than anyone, but i do know and give complete thanks to Him for setting me free and opening my eyes to a lot and to be able to see the Spirit in His Word. If i am to boast i wll do it as Paul did.

2Co 10:13 - We, however, will not boast beyond proper limits, but will confine our boasting to the field God has assigned to us, a field that reaches even to you.
2Co 12:1 - I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
2Co 11:17 -In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool.
Im a fool for doing it, but im a fool for the Lord.

 

[Ben Masada]

So if what you say is true then why would Peter agree with Paul?

+++Ben: - Who said that he agreed with Paul? Whom do you think the Letters atributed to Peter were written to, the churches of Paul? Use your imagination. The Nazarenes and Christians were at variance with each other throughout the existence of both. Peter never wrote those Letters.

2Peter 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

+++Ben: - Peter was probably in Rome. Perhaps incomunicado and unable to know of the effects this Letter would cause in Jerusalem. The style is Pauline or of any of his disciples, but not Peter's.

Even after Paul confronted Peter about his hypocrisy, Peter writes a letter that is still agreeing with Paul after this confrontation.

+++Ben: - Good! And you still don't get the point. Isn't amazing!

53 A.D. (Spring) : Book of Galatians 64 to 65 A.D. :Book of 1Peter65 to 66 A.D. :Book of 2Peter

Galatians 2:11-21 11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? 15 "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

+++Ben:- You forgot another famous quotation: Acts 15:7. That's Peter saying that he had been the one selected to be the Apostle of the Gentiles and not Paul. Where did Paul get the idea that he was the one? From Jesus on the Road to Damascus? Why didn't Jesus report the change to the Apostles? Please, have mercy on yourself and spare me the joke!

Why would John Mark (I think that was him) who wrote the gospel Mark and Acts travel and record everything Paul did if he (Paul) contradidted anything that went against the gospel that he wrote?

+++Ben: - Mark yes, wrote the second Gospel, but Acts was written by Luke. Mark was indeed a disciple of Paul's, but he didn't write anything until Paul was long dead. According to a Greek custom of the time, a disciple would never write anything until the Master was gone. What Mark wrote he did it about 40+ years after Jesus' death by collecting info from hear-say. It's only obvious that contradictions are prone to proliferate.

You dont have a leg to stand on

+++Ben: - And whose legs are you standing upon to be hanging in the air?

 

[AK4]

+++Ben: - And whose legs are you standing upon to be hanging in the air?

You know i could agrue with you on this forever, but i wont. You obviously are of the Jewish faith and dont believe in the NT or you just DONT believe ALL the Word of God. No you despise the Word of God. You only want to pick and chose which verses are true. This same chapter of acts, Peter is saying ...


7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." 12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.

This is exactly what happened. Who are they hearing from first, save Jesus? Why is the book of Acts first after the Gospels? You are full of contradictions.
You believe Acts 15:7 but you dont believe verses 10-11. Make up your mind. You are double-mind and what does David (your hero) and James say about double-mined men..Ps 119:113 -I hate double-minded men, but I love your law.
Jas 1:8 -he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
Jas 4:8 - Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

No this is God saying this to YOU.

Peter says we are only saved by grace. Paul is always saying the same. No contradiction. You believe when Peter says it, but not Paul.

For that fact why would they even be having the council if Paul was contradicting any of them AND then they agree! I guess Paul wrote James' letter all of Johns, including the gospels and Revelations all to fit his new found religion because they all agree. AND they agree with the OT. So he mustve written that too. Man Paul mustve been a genius.

 

[Ben Masada]

You know i could agrue with you on this forever, but i wont. You obviously are of the Jewish faith and dont believe in the NT or you just DONT believe ALL the Word of God. No you despise the Word of God. You only want to pick and chose which verses are true. This same chapter of acts, Peter is saying ...
+++Ben: - You are right: I am of the Jewish faith. But I do believe in 20 percent of
the NT. The other 80 percent are interpolations from the writers, who were on Paul's
"paycheck."

7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
+++Ben: - This for example, is part of the 20 percent. I do believe that Peter had been the one selected to take the Gospel of Jesus to the Gentiles and not Paul. Now, where did Paul get the idea that he was the one, on the Road to Damascus? If so, why didn't Jesus inform the Apostles about the change? See what I mean how crook was Paul?

8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
+++Ben: - This was Paul fishing Proselytes in the Synagogues of the Nazarenes.

11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." 12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.
+++Ben: - Gentiles, what Gentiles? They were the proselytes of the Nazarenes. Paul was never able to start a church from scratch. He would enter a Nazarene Synagogue
and overturn sometimes the whole Synagogue into a Christian church.

This is exactly what happened. Who are they hearing from first, save Jesus? Why is the book of Acts first after the Gospels? You are full of contradictions.
You believe Acts 15:7 but you dont believe verses 10-11. Make up your mind. You are double-mind and what does David (your hero) and James say about double-mined men..Ps 119:113 -I hate double-minded men, but I love your law.
Jas 1:8 -he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
Jas 4:8 - Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
+++Ben: - Thanks for whatever you mean. But I will keep knocking at the door of your empty skull untill you open it up for some commonsense.

No this is God saying this to YOU.
Peter says we are only saved by grace. Paul is always saying the same. No contradiction. You believe when Peter says it, but not Paul.
+++Ben: - Peter was a Nazarene. Paul founded the most criminal of all religions in the History of the world. We have lost more Jews to Christianity than to any other antisemitic organization in the world.

For that fact why would they even be having the council if Paul was contradicting any of them AND then they agree! I guess Paul wrote James' letter all of Johns, including the gospels and Revelations all to fit his new found religion because they all agree. AND they agree with the OT. So he mustve written that too. Man Paul mustve been a genius.

+++Ben: - He was indeed a Philosopher gone berserk. I have researched on his life
and I found out that he was born of well-to-do Hellenistic parents who paid his way into the Stoic University of Tarsus, where he got intoxicated with the idea to found a society based on ethical behaviour without the need of laws. Something on the line of the Platonic city governed by King Philosophers. Since the Jews were not ready to help him fufill his dream, he went into religion but could never start anything from scratch. All his churches were built on the foundation of the Nazarenes who were
the authentic giants of missionary work in the First Century. The multitude of Gentiles to really form Christianity came in the fourth Century with the Fathers of the Church who financed the enterprise. That's enough. Bye!
Ben:clap

 

[BrasenWall]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If Paul was in harmony with the Law, why would he preach against the Law, Moses, and the Jewish customs? Take a look at Acts 21:21. If this is to be in harmony, one of us ought to return to elementary school.

Ben

Hi Ben
Acts 21:21 states they were talking about the law of circumscism.

Acts 21 is backed by scripture below

1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And if you take this scripture (acts 21) beyond verse 21 other things can be seen

Acts 21:21-25
And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. [22] What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. [23] Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; [24] Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. [25] As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Acts 15 talks of the very same thing

ACTS 15 [17] That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. [18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. [19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among THE GENTILES are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that THEY ABSTAIN FROM POLLUTIONS OF IDOLS, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 15 and 21 as a whole are speaking as to whether gentiles needed to be circumcized or not. Nothing to do with the 10 commandments. That being said,I decided to also look into what pollution of idols {ACTS 15 V 20} {Acts 21 V 25}was all about.

LEVITICUS 19 [3] Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and KEEP MY SABBATHS: I am the Lord your God. [4] TURN YE NOT UNTO IDOLS, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the Lord your God.

LEVITICUS 26 [1]Ye shall MAKE YOU NO IDOLS nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. [2] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.

EZEKIEL 20 [16]Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, BUT POLLUTED MY SABBATHS: FOR THEIR HEART WENT AFTER THEIR IDOLS.

I don’t know what the connection might be as to why graven images (pollution of idols) are a sign that you don’t keep Gods sabbath but if the WORD says so I believe it. And you can sit and argue as to what a graven image is. I believe i see them in all the sunday go to meeting churches. The "many" will disagree.


Keep in mind both scriptures are talking about idols and the Gentiles.


Well...gotta go to bed now. Gotta get my sleep as im goin back to school tommorrow.

 

[BrasenWall]

Last but not least, to more properly answer your question, I have against Paul to have founded a religion that has shedded more Jewish blood through Christian progroms, Christian Crusades, Christian Inquisition and lately, the Holocaust than all the wars we have faced.
Ben:sorry1:

I really hope you dont believe that Paul started the catholic church. They claim him as their 1st pope but he was long dead and buried when this came about. He never knew he was a pope.

 

[BrasenWall]

Brother i was there too. I was a Sabbath keeper until God opened my eyes and set me free. It was a burden to try to keep the friday sunset to saturday sunset. With Christ we are free from any bondage.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

What does grievous mean? A burden?

Whats the new testament say about bondage?

GALATIANS 4 [21] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? [22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. [23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. [24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the TWO COVENANTS; THE ONE FROM THE MOUNT SINAI, WHICH GENDERETH TO BONDAGE, WHICH IS AGAR. [25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. [26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us allOK.

Is the above scripture speaking of the 10 commandments or circumcision?

EXODUS 34 [28] And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the COVENANT, the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

ACTS 7 [8] And he gave him the COVENANT OF CIRCUMCISION: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

BOTH the 10 commandments and circumcision were givin as “covenants”

EXODUS 24 [12] And the Lord said unto Moses, COME UP TO ME INTO THE MOUNT, and be there: and I WILL GIVE THEE tables of stone, AND A LAW, AND COMMANDMENTS which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

LEVITICUS 7 [37] THIS IS THE LAW OF THE BURNT OFFERING, of the meat offering, and of the sin offering, and of the trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings; [38] WHICH THE LORD COMMANDED MOSES IN MOUNT SINAI, in the day that he commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the Lord, in the wilderness of Sinai.

Both covenants, the 10 commandments and the law of Moses were given at Mt Sinai.

JOHN 7 [21] Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.[22] MOSES THEREFORE GAVE UNTO YOU CIRCUMCISION; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.[23] If a man on the sabbath day RECEIVE CIRCUMCISION, THAT THE LAW OF MOSES SHOULD NOT BE BROKEN; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] Because that ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and my laws.

Circumcision is of the law of Moses and given at Sinai. Even though it started with Abe.

Ten commandments given at Sinai. Even though Abe was keeping Gods commandments before Sinai. He OBEYED VOICE. So which of these, the 10 commandments or circumcision do the scriptures say bring us into “bondage”?

And the winner is....

GALATIANS 5 [1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and BE NOT ENTANGLED AGAIN WITH THE YOKE OF BONDAGE. [2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that IF YE BE CIRCUMCISED, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING.

now im goin to bed!

 

[Ben Masada]

I really hope you dont believe that Paul started the catholic church. They claim him as their 1st pope but he was long dead and buried when this came about. He never knew he was a pope.

++++++++++++++++++++++

No, Christians yes, these existed from the time Paul started preaching around that Jesus was Christ. But the Catholic Church got this name in the Fourth Century as a continuation of the Church of Paul or Christianity. But the Catholic Church is as Christian as any other Protestant Church.
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

Hi Ben
Acts 21:21 states they were talking about the law of circumscism.

+++Ben: - The KJV is an adulterated version of the Bible. The New American Bible translates Acts 21:21 as follows: "...that you teach the Jews to abandon Moses, to give up the circumcision, and to renounce their customs." In Judaism, "to abandon Moses" is to abandon the Law. This is backed up by Romans 10:4 where Paul says that "Christ is the end of the Law."

Acts 21 is backed by scripture below

1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And if you take this scripture (acts 21) beyond verse 21 other things can be seen

Acts 21:21-25
And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. [22] What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. [23] Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; [24] Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. [25] As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

+++Ben: - After Paul listened to all the information about what he was doing, he didn't say a word in his own defense, as a proof that all was true. Paul had not taken a vow. The Elders suggested him to join four Jews who had taken a vow, because they were afraid Paul could be arrested and implicate the Nazarenes, who were already suspected of being connected with him. But Paul was arested anyway, and taken to Rome. (Acts 21:27,28)

Acts 15 talks of the very same thing

ACTS 15 [17] That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. [18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. [19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among THE GENTILES are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that THEY ABSTAIN FROM POLLUTIONS OF IDOLS, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

+++Ben: - And Paul didn't give a damn to those intructions from the Elders. Perhaps he even laughed at them all, because soon latter he told his followers to eat whatever is sold in the market and anything an unbeliever put before them to eat. (I Cor. 10:25,26)

Acts 15 and 21 as a whole are speaking as to whether gentiles needed to be circumcized or not. Nothing to do with the 10 commandments. That being said,I decided to also look into what pollution of idols {ACTS 15 V 20} {Acts 21 V 25}was all about.

+++Ben: - Nothing to do with the 10 Commandments? Read about the allegory on freedom from the Law in Romans 7:1-6. Before you still think that it's not about the 10 commandments, where it is written, "You shall not covet?" (Rom. 7:7)

LEVITICUS 19 [3] Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and KEEP MY SABBATHS: I am the Lord your God. [4] TURN YE NOT UNTO IDOLS, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the Lord your God.

LEVITICUS 26 [1]Ye shall MAKE YOU NO IDOLS nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. [2] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.

EZEKIEL 20 [16]Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, BUT POLLUTED MY SABBATHS: FOR THEIR HEART WENT AFTER THEIR IDOLS.

I don’t know what the connection might be as to why graven images (pollution of idols) are a sign that you don’t keep Gods sabbath but if the WORD says so I believe it. And you can sit and argue as to what a graven image is. I believe i see them in all the sunday go to meeting churches. The "many" will disagree.


Keep in mind both scriptures are talking about idols and the Gentiles.


Well...gotta go to bed now. Gotta get my sleep as im goin back to school tommorrow.

Have a good night and a good day tomorrow.

Ben :run:

 

[BrasenWall]

Thanks Ben
May you also have a great day.

 

[mikmik]

I really hope you dont believe that Paul started the catholic church. They claim him as their 1st pope but he was long dead and buried when this came about. He never knew he was a pope.

Hello again..

I have just been sitting back and reading for a while. This whole debate is interesting because it is all a theory about Paul I haven't heard before, anywhere. But I wanted to know,,,

I thought that the Catholics claimed that Simon Peter started the church..?? I had never heard the idea that Paul started it, or that he may, or may not have been the first pope.

Ben, why do you quote so many scriptures to prove your points, when you believe in so few of them? Did't you tell me that you believe that Paul is the one that wrote off the Sabbath (in Rom 14?) If that is one of the fundamental bases of your belief that the Sabbath is irrelevent, then shouldn't your disbelief in Paul make you believe the opposite of anything he says? I just don't understand where you pull your beliefs from.

BrasenWall, do you beilieve in all of the scriptures, or do you dismiss any part of the Bible as inaccurate?

mik

 

[BrasenWall]

I believe all of it

Yeah, i believe they claim Peter as their 1st pope

 

[Ben Masada]

I believe all of it

Yeah, i believe they claim Peter as their 1st pope

Yes, they do. They claim a lot of strange things. But the real first Pope was Paul.

Ben