Why Heaven and Hell?

[Skwim]

Creator God does not acknowledge hell, or place/existence where God is not.

Not according to the Bible. Hell is mentioned quite a few times, several in conjunction with god. e.g.

2 peter 2:4
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;


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[Acim]

Not according to the Bible. Hell is mentioned quite a few times, several in conjunction with god. e.g.

2 peter 2:4
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;.​

​

Is this thread a 'scriptural debate?'

Either way, I wouldn't take 2 Peter as Gospel.

 

[james2ko]

But why do these two alternatives even exist?

Ok ...I'll play. Here are my rules...Before we start, the credibility of your OP and length of our discussion will depend on how you answer two questions:

Do you know how many hairs you have on your head at any given time?

Are you capable of memorizing the names of at least 300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (sextillion) stars?

No explanations just a simple yes or no answer would suffice..If you do not answer the questions, the discussion is over and my point proven..

 

[rusra02]

Heaven and hell are god's two chosen destinations for us after we die (I'm not bothering with purgatory). If we've abided by his requirements we go to heaven. If we haven't abided by his requirements, even if we were unaware of them, we go to hell. And for all eternity no less---at least so it's believed by most Christians.
[rest of post clipped]

IMO, your initial premise that God has destined us for heaven or hell is incorrect. (Matthew 5:5) I believe God has promised everlasting life on earth for the vast majority of the righteous. (Psalm 37:29, Revelation 21:3,4) This renders the rest of your post incorrect.

 

[Maponos]

Hell is essentially Tartarus. When Christianity came to Europe, it was extremely Hellenized and so 'hell' (which takes influence primarily from the Greek Tatarus) was created to scare the weaker minded people into Christianity, even though it was already present in their current faith(s), but not in the same way.

 

[Skwim]

​

Is this thread a 'scriptural debate?'

No, but you referred to scripture, "Creator God does not acknowledge hell, or place/existence where God is not." Or is there some other place where we can read what god acknowledges?

Either way, I wouldn't take 2 Peter as Gospel.

It isn't. Only Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are considered Gospel.

Ok ...I'll play. Here are my rules...Before we start, the credibility of your OP and length of our discussion will depend on how you answer two questions:

Tee hee. Don't you wish. The credibility of my OP lies in the logic of its question based on the presumed truth of two Christian assertions.

............1) There is Heaven
............2) There is Hell
Question) Why?
​

That you have no answer is not surprising, most people don't; however, there are quite a few Christian apologists out there who likely do, and it's their answer I'm interested in. Your implied "I don't know" is of no interest.

IMO, your initial premise that God has destined us for heaven or hell is incorrect. (Matthew 5:5) I believe God has promised everlasting life on earth for the vast majority of the righteous. (Psalm 37:29, Revelation 21:3,4) This renders the rest of your post incorrect.

Under your interpretation of scripture indeed it would, but I'm using the most common Christian understanding: Heaven and Hell exist and they're where we end up when we die. Don't believe in this? Fine.

Hell is essentially Tartarus. When Christianity came to Europe, it was extremely Hellenized and so 'hell' (which takes influence primarily from the Greek Tatarus) was created to scare the weaker minded people into Christianity, even though it was already present in their current faith(s), but not in the same way.

Thanks for the information. I imagine only a handful of Christians know this. I certainly didn't.



WHAT I FIND INTERESTING is that after 24 posts no one has challenged my assessment in the OP, which leads me to believe there's a lot of truth to it.


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[Acim]

No, but you referred to scripture, "Creator God does not acknowledge hell, or place/existence where God is not." Or is there some other place where we can read what god acknowledges?

Yes.

I usually suggest going within (meditation, contemplation, insight) before I would ever suggest a text. But there are plenty to texts (and songs, art, so on and so forth) inspired by the Divine. Just realizing this, that there's more than a few noted times where the Divine has communicated to humanity, is reason to consider Heaven is everywhere, within and around. Surely not the only reason.

 

[james2ko]

Tee hee. Don't you wish. The credibility of my OP lies in the logic of its question based on the presumed truth of two Christian assertions1) There is Heavem..2) There is Hell Question) Why?

​

That you have no answer is not surprising, most people don't; however, there are quite a few Christian apologists out there who likely do, and it's their answer I'm interested in. Your implied "I don't know" is of no interest.

james2ko asked: Ok ...I'll play. Here are my rules...Before we start, the credibility of your OP and length of our discussion will depend on how you answer two questions:

Do you know how many hairs you have on your head at any given time?

Are you capable of memorizing the names of at least 300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (sextillion) stars?

No explanations just a simple yes or no answer would suffice..If you do not answer the questions, the discussion is over and my point proven..

That you have no answer is not surprising, most people who question God's sovereignty don't; however, there may be a few Agnostics out there who likely do, and it's their answer I'm interested in. Your implied "I don't know" is of no interest..

Thanks for saving me some typing...

 

[ronandcarol]

But why do these two alternatives even exist? As I read Christianity they serve to scare one into believing what god wants us to believe. Believe that having faith in Jesus, and perhaps doing good works, will keep us out of hell and get us into heaven.

The bottom line is this; WHAT if you are wrong? What if it is the way that Christianity says it is and you don't buy into it. What if you are wrong? What if Christianity IS right? You can't change your bet after you have died, you must choose now.

ronandcarol

 

[Skwim]

The bottom line is this; WHAT if you are wrong? What if it is the way that Christianity says it is and you don't buy into it. What if you are wrong? What if Christianity IS right? You can't change your bet after you have died, you must choose now.

And what if YOU'RE wrong. What if it isn't the way that Christianity says it is, and which you've bought into. What if Christianity ISN'T right? What if you've wasted your brain betting on religion. What if the CAD, Celestial Academy of Deities, considers your adherence to Christianity to be a vile and abominable use of your brain, and consigns you to spend eternity eating nothing but lutefisk and pond scum ?

Spoiler: Lutefisk and Pond Scum

Lutefisk:
Whitefish soaked in lye until it loses its consistency and
more closely resembles Jello (albeit a gray, urine-scented Jello).
Although it can be eaten with a fork it's far easier to use a spoon.

Pond Scum

​

You can't change your bet after you have died, you must choose now.

By the way, it didn't escape my notice that you avoided answering my question. No surprise though.

 

[Muffled]

I believe Heaven is a place of rest from the material world.
I believe Hell is simply a prison to keep evil spirits from bothering good spirits.

I don't believe these are the only two possibilities when one dies. In fact I believe information about Heaven and Hell are only relevant to the end of the world (as we know it).

 

[Muffled]

Why Heaven and Hell?

Because it was a simplistic understanding for a time when people were not educated and unexposed to larger views. I see the simplistic view (heaven or Hell) declining rapidly with the increase in education and exposure in modern times.

I believe the simplistic understanding that came before the mention of Heaven and Hell was that of soul sleep. Of course these days the materialists just think death ends it all and that is as simplistic as it gets.

 

[Muffled]

Well, sure, if you're going to take a practical approach to religion.


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I believe in practicing what I preach so it isn't practical for me to follow someone else's views just because he thinks he is so smart.

 

[Skwim]

I believe in practicing what I preach so it isn't practical for me to follow someone else's views just because he thinks he is so smart.

Eh?

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[MountainPine]

Heaven and hell are god's two chosen destinations for us after we die (I'm not bothering with purgatory). If we've abided by his requirements we go to heaven. If we haven't abided by his requirements, even if we were unaware of them, we go to hell. And for all eternity no less---at least so it's believed by most Christians.

But why do these two alternatives even exist? As I read Christianity they serve to scare one into believing what god wants us to believe. Believe that having faith in Jesus, and perhaps doing good works, will keep us out of hell and get us into heaven.

So god creates hell just so people can avoid it. Truthfully, this doesn't make any sense. Of course, one could say that it's to convince people to believe in Jesus, the litmus test in deciding one's final destination. But this seems no less arbitrary than demanding that one hop on one foot every morning for an hour to be saved from going to hell, and no more momentus.

God says you'd better be scared enough of what I can do to you or else I'll do it. It reminds me of this parody of Christ Knocking at the Door

​

When the elements are laid out god's whole plan comes out as rather ludicrous. UNLESS, that is, god created us for his entertainment. Watching us fumble around trying to play by his rules and meet his expectations, all the while handicapped by the sin card he played on us early on. Of course this would beg the question of his worthiness to be loved and venerated. A demand [one of the rules of play] he insist we abide by. Maybe an ego thing with him?

In any case, why do you think god created Heaven and Hell?


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Heaven is the cosmos. Hell is the grave (sheol). According to the Bible, we all go to the grave when we die (Psalms 90:3, Psalms 104:29, Job 34:15). While we are dead, we are completely unconscious (Ecclesiastes 9:5). There will be two resurrections of the dead at the end of the world. The first resurrection will be for the righteous dead and the Elect. They will be resurrected and will reign with Christ for 1000 years. (Revelation 20:4-6). Then everybody else will be resurrected and judged according to their works (Revelation 20:12). Some will receive everlasting life too, but no inheritance, and will be subject to everlasting shame and contempt (Daniel 12:2, Jeremiah 23:40), and anyone's name who is not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15), in which they will be annihilated (Psalms 92:7, Malachi 4:1, 1 Corinthians 3:17, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Philippians 3:19, 2 Peter 2:3). Everlasting torment is not Biblical, it is purely a Church doctrine. The only way everlasting torment is possible is that the condemned will receive everlasting life in order to burn eternally, but the Bible makes it clear that everlasting life is not reserved for the wicked. God is not going to create new bodies that last forever for those who lived in sin. That is preposterous.

What about the account in Luke 16 where it describes a rich man being tormented you may wonder? Half of the problem with Christian theology is the false equivocation of the flame in this context with hell or the grave. Jesus did not say that the rich man was in the fire; he said that he was in hell, or the grave, clearly meaning that his spirit rose up from the grave and found itself somewhere else.

In the original text of the 24th verse there is nothing to indicate whether the preposition should be “in” (this fire) or “from” it. The rich man is awaiting his punishment, at the edge of the flame but not yet in it. He is parched, not burning; a single drop of water is an extremely humble request for someone allegedly being consumed by fire. It is enough to moisten a man’s tongue but not enough to cool his burning flesh.

The man is in mental anguish, believing that he is going to be thrown into the fire, and after a lifetime of unrighteousness is finally willing to change his ways now that he sees what the result of his sin is. He has “seen the light,” so to speak. Metaphysical necessity demanded his uprightness, but natural law was not enough to convince him of this, so Jesus has intervened with the looming threat of damnation in order to achieve what Moses and the prophets could not. The whole parable is really about the foolishness of the man who does not listen to the voice of reason but instead lives the way his wicked heart foolishly desires.

So Lazarus and the rich man both died, were both buried and both ceased to exist, with no knowledge, until they were resurrected. Lazarus was resurrected together with Abraham at Christ’s coming and ruled with him in the kingdom. The rich man was left in anguish in the grave while Lazarus was comforted, until at last being resurrected after this, to “judgment.” That this happened before the judgment is blatantly obvious due to the fact that the man pleaded for the sake of his own brothers (hence the Christians’ assertion that we go to heaven or “hell” “immediately” when we die). Had he continued in unbelief then he would resurrected only to be thrown into the lake of fire, being consumed by the fire and ceasing to exist forever.

What about Revelation 14:9-11? First of all, everlasting smoke does not refer to everlasting torture. The events of this passage taken out of its context occur before the final judgment, just as the rich man’s torment in the parable of Lazarus do. They are in torment as they reflect upon their lives, awaiting their fate of being thrown into the sulfurous fire. This is practically the same fate as that of the nefilim who are reserved for judgment in “everlasting” chains. The word is used in both cases to show the prisoners cannot escape, not that they are bound to it forever. Moreover, it is the same fire used for each cycle of creation. (see 2 Peter 2:1-17)

Not according to the Bible. Hell is mentioned quite a few times, several in conjunction with god. e.g.

2 peter 2:4
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

​

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'hell' is a mistransliteration. It is used in place of Strong's G5020 ταρταρόω (tartaroó) or Tartarus. Tartarus is a place where the nefilim are being held until the Day of Judgment (1 Peter 3:18-20, Jude 1:6).

I know this doesn't exactly answer your question, but I hope this puts things into perspective.

 

[idav]

Heaven and hell are god's two chosen destinations for us after we die (I'm not bothering with purgatory). If we've abided by his requirements we go to heaven. If we haven't abided by his requirements, even if we were unaware of them, we go to hell. And for all eternity no less---at least so it's believed by most Christians.

But why do these two alternatives even exist? As I read Christianity they serve to scare one into believing what god wants us to believe. Believe that having faith in Jesus, and perhaps doing good works, will keep us out of hell and get us into heaven.

So god creates hell just so people can avoid it. Truthfully, this doesn't make any sense. Of course, one could say that it's to convince people to believe in Jesus, the litmus test in deciding one's final destination. But this seems no less arbitrary than demanding that one hop on one foot every morning for an hour to be saved from going to hell, and no more momentus.

God says you'd better be scared enough of what I can do to you or else I'll do it. It reminds me of this parody of Christ Knocking at the Door

​

When the elements are laid out god's whole plan comes out as rather ludicrous. UNLESS, that is, god created us for his entertainment. Watching us fumble around trying to play by his rules and meet his expectations, all the while handicapped by the sin card he played on us early on. Of course this would beg the question of his worthiness to be loved and venerated. A demand [one of the rules of play] he insist we abide by. Maybe an ego thing with him?

In any case, why do you think god created Heaven and Hell?


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Hell is the grave. Christians trying to tell the world how to read and interpret Jewish texts isn't helpful for anyone. If you recall we don't go anywhere when we die, Christians are waiting for a resurrection. No resurrection equals no afterlife according to Christianity. Revelations is entirely metaphorical, probably someone's crazy dream.

 

[wizanda]

It's particularly confusing when you read Matthew 7 and find out that waaaay more people are going to Hell than Heaven.

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few”

Where does that say about Heaven or Hell; it is saying hardly any find their way to life.

Thanks for your input, unconventional as it is.

The post wasn't unconventional; it was explaining where the confusion comes from, and anyone who has had a serious look at the texts, knows this more or less.

2 peter 2:4
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell (Tartarus), putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

This is where they've used Greek mythology within a Jewish setting, which shows how they've made it up.

why do you think god created Heaven and Hell?

There are multiple dimensions, where the highest form of consciousness is Oneness (Heaven); the lowest form of consciousness is separation (Hell).

It is all based on frequency as such, that the lower dimensions are in darkness, as they've moved away from the CPU, which sustains the light within us at a quantum level.

What you should take into account isn't just that Christians have a concept of Hell; yet that almost all the religions globally have a similar concept of Hell, with matching metaphors.

God didn't need to create Heaven and Hell; Heaven is being close to the source (light), therefore there is an ultimate sense of Oneness....Hell is where we've walked away into our own selfish desires (darkness).

The Bible in the beginning (Genesis) didn't say God made Heaven or Hell btw, it says 'God created the sky and the earth'.

 

[Muffled]

Hell is the grave. Christians trying to tell the world how to read and interpret Jewish texts isn't helpful for anyone. If you recall we don't go anywhere when we die, Christians are waiting for a resurrection. No resurrection equals no afterlife according to Christianity. Revelations is entirely metaphorical, probably someone's crazy dream.

I believe there is some confusion there. The NT translations use the word hell for the grave of the wicked but that is a Norse concept. The actual hell is the lake of fire.

I believe no Christian translator uses the word hell for the grave in the OT.

I believe that is your prerogative and certainly the OT belief but the resurrection showed that it is not the only thing that can happen.

I believe I am waiting for the Rapture but if I am dead at the time I will gladly take a resurrection.

I believe that is incorrect.

I believe prophecy is hard to figure out sometimes but that does not mean it isn't meaningful.

 

[Muffled]

MountainPine said: "Heaven is the cosmos. Hell is the grave (sheol)."

I don't believe heaven can be equated with Heaven even though both are out in space. English does not seem to display the difference but the fact that heaven is used for the cosmos that does not mean it is the only way that word is used in the Bible.

I believe many translator used Hell for sheol but that is only half the story. Hel in Norse mythology was the burying place for the wicked at an entrance to the fire below. However not all graves are in fire, some are just in the earth and the translators should have used the word grave. However there are instances where fire is mentioned and Hell is an appropriate word for that place. I don't believe Gahenna applies since it is not Hell fire but burning dump fire although I don't doubt that Jesus was using the burning dump as a metaphor for Hell.

 

[InChrist]

In any case, why do you think god created Heaven and Hell?


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I think your take on God, heaven, and hell reveals that you really don't understand the reality of God or His relationship and plan for humanity. It's not about ultimatums or you go to hell. God is not threatening. He is warning and there is a huge difference. When a parent warns their child not to touch the hot stove or walk into the street it is not a threat, but a warning given based on love for the life of that child. If a person is drowning and someone says grab my hand or you'll be swept away it is benevolent, not malicious. The scriptures reveal that God is the Creator of all life and each person exists only through dependence on Him as their life giving Source. To reject God is to reject one's very essence and source of life. God is good and loving enough to let everyone know that reality. Heaven is eternal life in relationship with our Source of life and existence. Hell is separation from that Source and eternal death.

God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being...Acts 17:24-28