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Why I believe God Created Life.

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
So, natural selection is a directional process that selects which traits a plant or animal needs to survive and/or reproduce? And what mechanism controls this selection process? Is it your belief that this process is responsible for all the designs evident in nature? The molecular machines in cells, for example?
Natural selection is the mechanism. It selects for existing traits that are conducive to survival and reproduction because traits which work against survival and reproduction remove themselves from the gene pool (unless, of course, a beneficial gene and a deleterious gene are at closely linked loci, in which case a beneficial trait can carry a deleterious one "along for the ride" if the benefit exceeds the cost of doing so). Surely even creationists believe that much, since it is just as important for microevolution as it is for macroevolution.

Natural selection alone is not responsible for evolution. It only acts on the genetic diversity that already exists and selects for existing traits that make for effective "designs" (if you want to call it that). In order for evolution to really get going, new genetic diversity has to be generated over time. Genetic recombination and mutation are responsible for that part of it (epigenetics probably plays some role as well). If you want me to list some mutations which increase an organisms ability to survive and reproduce, just ask me and I'd be happy to supply them.

I believe science has proven the earth is far older than six thousand years. True science and the Bible are not incompatible.
I never said they were incompatible. If you believe science has demonstrated an old Earth, then what specific techniques used by science to measure the age of the Earth are you making reference to?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If you define True science as consisting of only those parts that do not contradict the Bible, then this sentence is tautological.

Ciao

- viole

Surely you realize that just as there is true religion and false, there is true science and false. Sometimes the errors are caused by bias for a preconceived theory, such as so-called vestigial organs and "junk" DNA. Sometimes the errors are deliberate attempts to deceive, such as the Piltdown man and the Lamarckian Inheritance fraud, to name just two.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Natural selection is the mechanism. It selects for existing traits that are conducive to survival and reproduction because traits which work against survival and reproduction remove themselves from the gene pool (unless, of course, a beneficial gene and a deleterious gene are at closely linked loci, in which case a beneficial trait can carry a deleterious one "along for the ride" if the benefit exceeds the cost of doing so). Surely even creationists believe that much, since it is just as important for microevolution as it is for macroevolution.

Natural selection alone is not responsible for evolution. It only acts on the genetic diversity that already exists and selects for existing traits that make for effective "designs" (if you want to call it that). In order for evolution to really get going, new genetic diversity has to be generated over time. Genetic recombination and mutation are responsible for that part of it (epigenetics probably plays some role as well). If you want me to list some mutations which increase an organisms ability to survive and reproduce, just ask me and I'd be happy to supply them.


I never said they were incompatible. If you believe science has demonstrated an old Earth, then what specific techniques used by science to measure the age of the Earth are you making reference to?

In 1999, evolutionary theorist Jeffrey H. Schwartz wrote that natural selection may be helping species adapt to the changing demands of existence, but it is not creating anything new. As to mutations, I think this quote from The Origin of Life—Five Questions Worth Asking answers the myth of mutations forming new species: "Myth: Mutations provide the raw materials needed to create new species. The teaching of macroevolution is built on the claim that mutations—random changes in the genetic code of plants and animals—can produce not only new species but also entirely new families of plants and animals.

The facts. Many characteristics of a plant or an animal are determined by the instructions contained in its genetic code, the blueprints that are wrapped up in the nucleus of each cell. Researchers have discovered that mutations can produce alterations in the descendants of plants and animals. But do mutations really produce entirely new species? What has a century of study in the field of genetic research revealed?

In the late 1930’s, scientists enthusiastically embraced a new idea. They already thought that natural selection—the process in which the organism best suited to its environment is most likely to survive and breed—could produce new species of plants from random mutations. Therefore, they now assumed that artificial, or human-guided, selection of mutations should be able to do the same thing but more efficiently. “Euphoria spread among biologists in general and geneticists and breeders in particular,” said Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, a scientist from the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research in Germany. Why the euphoria? Lönnig, who has spent some 30 years studying mutation genetics in plants, said: “These researchers thought that the time had come to revolutionize the traditional method of breeding plants and animals. They thought that by inducing and selecting favorable mutations, they could produce new and better plants and animals.” In fact, some hoped to produce entirely new species.

Scientists in the United States, Asia, and Europe launched well-funded research programs using methods that promised to speed up evolution. After more than 40 years of intensive research, what were the results? “In spite of an enormous financial expenditure,” says researcher Peter von Sengbusch, “the attempt to cultivate increasingly productive varieties by irradiation [to cause mutations], widely proved to be a failure.” And Lönnig said: “By the 1980’s, the hopes and euphoria among scientists had ended in worldwide failure. Mutation breeding as a separate branch of research was abandoned in Western countries. Almost all the mutants . . . died or were weaker than wild varieties.”*

Even so, the data now gathered from some 100 years of mutation research in general and 70 years of mutation breeding in particular enable scientists to draw conclusions regarding the ability of mutations to produce new species. After examining the evidence, Lönnig concluded: “Mutations cannot transform an original species [of plant or animal] into an entirely new one. This conclusion agrees with all the experiences and results of mutation research of the 20th century taken together as well as with the laws of probability.”

So, can mutations cause one species to evolve into a completely new kind of creature? The evidence answers no! Lönnig’s research has led him to the conclusion that “properly defined species have real boundaries that cannot be abolished or transgressed by accidental mutations.”

Consider the implications of the above facts. If highly trained scientists are unable to produce new species by artificially inducing and selecting favorable mutations, is it likely that an unintelligent process would do a better job? If research shows that mutations cannot transform an original species into an entirely new one, then how, exactly, was macroevolution supposed to have taken place?"
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
The Bible explains that "God is a Spirit" and that he has created millions of spirit sons. (John 4:24, Psalm 104:4) The Bible describes in simple language how the first human was created. Genesis 2:7 states: "And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person." Man was Jehovah's crowning earthly masterpiece, comprised of elements found on earth. One would not inspect a painters masterpiece and then claim the painting just happened by chance or 'natural selection'. Yet, the greatest masterpiece ever created by man is as nothing in comparison to the surpassing brilliance of design in the human body, IMO.

OK, so I believe you are saying humans were created in one sudden event.

I'm actually on your side in not believing that random events and chance mutations are the only cause of this mind-boggling complexity. I liked your post immediately preceding this one on mutations by the way.

But I think the theory you are proposing is even way farther out there than what the atheists are proposing. A few things: Humans certainly look like a product of evolution and not a design from scratch; vestigial organs; DNA much like other animals, etc.. The fossil record supports evolution.

Have you considered a hybrid belief of Christianity, Creationism and Evolution. I don't want to disturb your Christian beliefs but many Christians are comfortable accepting evolution and their position seems intelligent and consistent to me. Evolution may be how God creates. I believe evolution was fostered by angels/nature spirits/whatever-term all under the umbrella of God.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
In 1999, evolutionary theorist Jeffrey H. Schwartz wrote that natural selection may be helping species adapt to the changing demands of existence, but it is not creating anything new. As to mutations, I think this quote from The Origin of Life—Five Questions Worth Asking answers the myth of mutations forming new species: "Myth: Mutations provide the raw materials needed to create new species. The teaching of macroevolution is built on the claim that mutations—random changes in the genetic code of plants and animals—can produce not only new species but also entirely new families of plants and animals.

The facts. Many characteristics of a plant or an animal are determined by the instructions contained in its genetic code, the blueprints that are wrapped up in the nucleus of each cell. Researchers have discovered that mutations can produce alterations in the descendants of plants and animals. But do mutations really produce entirely new species? What has a century of study in the field of genetic research revealed?

In the late 1930’s, scientists enthusiastically embraced a new idea. They already thought that natural selection—the process in which the organism best suited to its environment is most likely to survive and breed—could produce new species of plants from random mutations. Therefore, they now assumed that artificial, or human-guided, selection of mutations should be able to do the same thing but more efficiently. “Euphoria spread among biologists in general and geneticists and breeders in particular,” said Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, a scientist from the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research in Germany. Why the euphoria? Lönnig, who has spent some 30 years studying mutation genetics in plants, said: “These researchers thought that the time had come to revolutionize the traditional method of breeding plants and animals. They thought that by inducing and selecting favorable mutations, they could produce new and better plants and animals.” In fact, some hoped to produce entirely new species.

Scientists in the United States, Asia, and Europe launched well-funded research programs using methods that promised to speed up evolution. After more than 40 years of intensive research, what were the results? “In spite of an enormous financial expenditure,” says researcher Peter von Sengbusch, “the attempt to cultivate increasingly productive varieties by irradiation [to cause mutations], widely proved to be a failure.” And Lönnig said: “By the 1980’s, the hopes and euphoria among scientists had ended in worldwide failure. Mutation breeding as a separate branch of research was abandoned in Western countries. Almost all the mutants . . . died or were weaker than wild varieties.”*

Even so, the data now gathered from some 100 years of mutation research in general and 70 years of mutation breeding in particular enable scientists to draw conclusions regarding the ability of mutations to produce new species. After examining the evidence, Lönnig concluded: “Mutations cannot transform an original species [of plant or animal] into an entirely new one. This conclusion agrees with all the experiences and results of mutation research of the 20th century taken together as well as with the laws of probability.”

So, can mutations cause one species to evolve into a completely new kind of creature? The evidence answers no! Lönnig’s research has led him to the conclusion that “properly defined species have real boundaries that cannot be abolished or transgressed by accidental mutations.”

Consider the implications of the above facts. If highly trained scientists are unable to produce new species by artificially inducing and selecting favorable mutations, is it likely that an unintelligent process would do a better job? If research shows that mutations cannot transform an original species into an entirely new one, then how, exactly, was macroevolution supposed to have taken place?"
This particular bit of research is unfamiliar to me but I can already see some issues. Artificial evolution, despite being performed by intelligent people, still has many of the same limitations of natural evolution. Inducing mutations by radiation still has random consequences. Scientists can induce such mutations but they will not know where they will happen in the genome or what effect they will have on the phenotype of the organism. In that sense, they still have to "play the lottery" just as nature does. In another sense, artificial selection is limited in a similar way to natural selection because one still has a limited gene pool to work with. If a desired trait does not exist in a gene pool, you cannot select for it either naturally or artificially. You would have to wait until the desired trait comes into being either via mutation or genetic recombination.

So even though scientists were running the experiment, they were not in complete control of the results. Such being the case, artificial speciation this way may not go much if any faster than natural speciation. Radiation might have even been counterproductive. If radiation levels are too high, they could cause several different mutations in the same genome. Since deleterious mutations are much more common than beneficial ones, generating many different such mutations at once could very well generate organisms with unhealthy, sterile or lethal phenotypes despite having an occasional beneficial mutation hiding in its genome. However, I need to look into this more. Would you be nice enough to provide me with a link to where you got your information about this?

You'd also need to define the point at which a population becomes a new species as it changes over time. In most cases it's a gradual thing and not a sudden "jump".

I do recall hearing in a college lecture once that there were two species of katydid that were different from one another by only 3 alleles. They were able to maintain their distinct species-hood due to differences in mating behaving. So in principle, only a few mutations could lead to the start of speciation under the right circumstances.

Do you not consider speciation possible? Most creationists I'm aware of do, despite the fact that we have not generated any new species in the laboratory (to my knowledge, at least). Makes Noah's Ark a lot more crowded if all modern land-dwelling species (and many now-extinct ones) had to be carried aboard instead of just the kinds.

Also, I'm still curious as to what specific scientific methods have convinced you that the Earth is old.
 
Like the wall surrounding a factory, the membrane of a cell shields the contents from a potentially hostile environment. However, the membrane is not solid; it allows the cell to “breathe,” permitting small molecules, such as oxygen, to pass in or out. But the membrane blocks more complex, potentially damaging molecules from entering without the cell’s permission. The membrane also prevents useful molecules from leaving the cell. How does the membrane manage such feats?

That's an easy one. Given enough time, and a large enough population(both of which we have in spades) the rate of mutation and natural selection would inevitably push towards what we see now, as the cells with the 'wider gaps' were more often destroyed by foreign bodies, making it far less likely they will be able to reproduce. meanwhile, any cell born with a smaller 'gap' would have it's odds of successfully reproducing significantly increased. Eventually, you would see only those cells that did not allow for destructive foreign bodies.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
OK, so I believe you are saying humans were created in one sudden event.

I'm actually on your side in not believing that random events and chance mutations are the only cause of this mind-boggling complexity. I liked your post immediately preceding this one on mutations by the way.

But I think the theory you are proposing is even way farther out there than what the atheists are proposing. A few things: Humans certainly look like a product of evolution and not a design from scratch; vestigial organs; DNA much like other animals, etc.. The fossil record supports evolution.

Have you considered a hybrid belief of Christianity, Creationism and Evolution. I don't want to disturb your Christian beliefs but many Christians are comfortable accepting evolution and their position seems intelligent and consistent to me. Evolution may be how God creates. I believe evolution was fostered by angels/nature spirits/whatever-term all under the umbrella of God.

For me, the process of evolution is far more wondrous to behold then simply zapping living things into existence at once.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Another thing I would like to see end is the misconception that evolution is a blind process. This is an oxymoron because a process cannot be blind as it is a methodology unto itself. Evolution is highly systematic and very tedious in its occurrence which starts from simple to complex organisms. Natural selection and genetic lineage are all such highly complex factors in evolution that all abide by processes. Evolution is not random in any shape or form and is anti-random if understood properly.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That's an easy one. Given enough time, and a large enough population(both of which we have in spades) the rate of mutation and natural selection would inevitably push towards what we see now, as the cells with the 'wider gaps' were more often destroyed by foreign bodies, making it far less likely they will be able to reproduce. meanwhile, any cell born with a smaller 'gap' would have it's odds of successfully reproducing significantly increased. Eventually, you would see only those cells that did not allow for destructive foreign bodies.

Easy-peasy! Right? Wrong! Hubris is defined in Wikipedia as " extreme pride or self-confidence. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence, accomplishments or capabilities."

With that definition in mind, consider this from g11/10 p.4-6: "Evolutionists readily acknowledge that the origin of life remains a mystery—although there are many conflicting theories. A leading new atheist, Richard Dawkins, claims that by virtue of the vast number of planets that must exist in the universe, life was bound to appear somewhere. But many reputable scientists are not so sure. Cambridge Professor John Barrow says that the belief in “the evolution of life and mind” hits “dead-ends at every stage. There are just so many ways in which life can fail to evolve in a complex and hostile environment that it would be sheer hubris to suppose that, simply given enough carbon and enough time, anything is possible.”

Keep in mind, too, that life is not just an assortment of chemical elements. Rather, it is based on an extremely sophisticated form of information, which is encoded in DNA. Hence, when we talk about the origin of life, we are also talking about the origin of biological information. What is the only source of information that we know of? In a word, intelligence. Would chance accidents produce complex information, such as a computer program, an algebraic formula, an encyclopedia, or even a recipe for a cake? Of course not. Yet, when it comes to sophistication and efficiency, none of these even begin to compare with the information stored in the genetic code of living organisms."
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Another thing I would like to see end is the misconception that evolution is a blind process. This is an oxymoron because a process cannot be blind as it is a methodology unto itself. Evolution is highly systematic and very tedious in its occurrence which starts from simple to complex organisms. Natural selection and genetic lineage are all such highly complex factors in evolution that all abide by processes. Evolution is not random in any shape or form and is anti-random if understood properly.

There should be evidence, then, that so-called natural selection produced all the various families of plants and animals. What proof do you have that "natural selection produces new creatures?"
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
More on why I believe God created life. "Life on earth could never exist were it not for a series of very fortunate “coincidences,” some of which were unknown or poorly understood until the 20th century. Those coincidences include the following:

▪ Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and unusual moon

▪ A magnetic field and an atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

▪ Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the planet’s air and water supply" (Origin of Life p.13)

All these necessary circumstances are prerequisites for life to exist. One cannot study these without a sense of awe. Such study has moved many to change their mind regarding how life arose, as the following quote from W09 3/15 shows: "Scientists have discovered a great deal about earth’s position in our solar system as well as the perfect orbit, size, and mass of our large moon. The arrangement and interrelationship of these heavenly bodies makes possible the beautiful and regular change of seasons. Also, much has been learned about the fine-tuning of natural forces in the universe. Thus, in an article entitled “The Designed ‘Just So’ Universe,” a professor of mechanical engineering observed: “It is quite easy to understand why so many scientists have changed their minds in the past 30 years, agreeing that it takes a great deal of faith to believe the universe can be explained as nothing more than a fortuitous cosmic accident. Evidence for an intelligent designer becomes more compelling the more we understand about our carefully crafted habitat.”
 

outhouse

Atheistically
More on why I believe God created life.


Believe what you want.

But no where is there ANY sign of any deity anywhere, giving life a helping hand.


There are trillions of planets like ours. We just do not have the ability to investigate them.



What biblical accounts we do have, do not match up with reality and reflect mythology. It is obvious the ancient authors knew nothing of the origins of the earth or solor system nor the universe.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Believe what you want.

But no where is there ANY sign of any deity anywhere, giving life a helping hand.


There are trillions of planets like ours. We just do not have the ability to investigate them.



What biblical accounts we do have, do not match up with reality and reflect mythology. It is obvious the ancient authors knew nothing of the origins of the earth or solor system nor the universe.

I find your statement that "But no where is there ANY sign of any deity anywhere, giving life a helping hand" quite revealing. Millions of people see innumerable signs of Deity or God everywhere. It is for these people as the Bible says: "For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship." (Romans 1:20)
 

McBell

Unbound
More on why I believe God created life. "Life on earth could never exist were it not for a series of very fortunate “coincidences,” some of which were unknown or poorly understood until the 20th century. Those coincidences include the following:

▪ Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and unusual moon

▪ A magnetic field and an atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

▪ Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the planet’s air and water supply" (Origin of Life p.13)

All these necessary circumstances are prerequisites for life to exist. One cannot study these without a sense of awe. Such study has moved many to change their mind regarding how life arose, as the following quote from W09 3/15 shows: "Scientists have discovered a great deal about earth’s position in our solar system as well as the perfect orbit, size, and mass of our large moon. The arrangement and interrelationship of these heavenly bodies makes possible the beautiful and regular change of seasons. Also, much has been learned about the fine-tuning of natural forces in the universe. Thus, in an article entitled “The Designed ‘Just So’ Universe,” a professor of mechanical engineering observed: “It is quite easy to understand why so many scientists have changed their minds in the past 30 years, agreeing that it takes a great deal of faith to believe the universe can be explained as nothing more than a fortuitous cosmic accident. Evidence for an intelligent designer becomes more compelling the more we understand about our carefully crafted habitat.”

Do you have a reason to believe in god that is not a blatant logical fallacy?

Just curious.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
In what way is this effect-cause logic fallacious?

I've attempted to explain this to several different people that have the same view as yourself and to no avail yet. But please try to keep an open mind without being defensive or feeling as if the explination is attacking your world view. That said...


With the vastness of our universe it is entirely possible (rather plausible even) that there would be small pockets with our conditions. Its very very very very very very very very rare. However that doesn't make it impossible. We stand now after all has been said and done and look back at the tremendous odds in which we have come to be. However nothing in the statistics of it. Someone winning the lotto is very rare. But it happens and there is nothing to suggest god made it happen or that it would be impossible without god to win the lotto.

We obviously would exist to contemplate such things if life didn't arise here.
 

Irfanalam

New Member
I'm starting to believe we were an experiment that failed.When He created us the world was not the way it is now,His intentions were good,He wanted us to enjoy the life He offered to us.But if you think about it,it's us,humans that destroy everything good in this world and make life unbearable.Also,you don't know what happens when you die,do you?Who says death is the end?Not believing in any God would make my point of view very narrow,at least for me,and I refuse to see things this way.To me death is a transition and life is the time we get to spend and enjoy on this earth.At least that's what it was meant to be.So that's what I do,I try to enjoy every day and see life as a gift instead of a curse.And I'm happy about it.
 
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