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WHY I BELIEVE THAT CHRIST IS GOD

firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
cOLTER said:
The Trinity has Father, Son and Spirit, all of which are a the I AM. That Trinity created Jesus who is our Creator Son. His Father is our Grandfather. All of these divine beings are unified indistinguishably as One in spirit, they are God to us. Its non-understandable to the finite mind.
Click to expand...

So did

1. the trinity create the son who is also part of the trinity?
2. or the son is not Jesus because Jesus is a creation of the trinity which means the son is the creator of Jesus?
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
firedragon said:
So did

1. the trinity create the son who is also part of the trinity?
2. or the son is not Jesus because Jesus is a creation of the trinity which means the son is the creator of Jesus?
Click to expand...
The original Paradise Trinity is Eternal, It has always existed. In philosophy the Trinity is the first volitional act of the Universal Absolute which is the reservoir of Infinity. In theory only, all was quiet, the Father moved out from the unqualified Universal Absolute and became the Father of the Son and in Spirit. The paradise Trinity is the pattern for subsequent created beings.

*** Jesus came from the Trinity, creative powers and authority were delegated to him.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
cOLTER said:
The original Paradise Trinity is Eternal, It has always existed. In philosophy the Trinity is the first volitional act of the Universal Absolute which is the reservoir of Infinity. In theory only, all was quiet, the Father moved out from the unqualified Universal Absolute and became the Father of the Son and in Spirit. The paradise Trinity is the pattern for subsequent created beings.

*** Jesus came from the Trinity, creative powers and authority were delegated to him.
Click to expand...

So Jesus is not the son!
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
firedragon said:
So did

1. the trinity create the son who is also part of the trinity?
2. or the son is not Jesus because Jesus is a creation of the trinity which means the son is the creator of Jesus?
Click to expand...



"THE PARADISE TRINITY of eternal Deities facilitates the Father’s escape from personality absolutism. The Trinity perfectly associates the limitless expression of God’s infinite personal will with the absoluteness of Deity. The Eternal Son and the various Sons of divine origin, together with the Conjoint Actor and his universe children, effectively provide for the Father’s liberation from the limitations otherwise inherent in primacy, perfection, changelessness, eternity, universality, absoluteness, and infinity." UB 1955
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
cOLTER said:
"THE PARADISE TRINITY of eternal Deities facilitates the Father’s escape from personality absolutism. The Trinity perfectly associates the limitless expression of God’s infinite personal will with the absoluteness of Deity. The Eternal Son and the various Sons of divine origin, together with the Conjoint Actor and his universe children, effectively provide for the Father’s liberation from the limitations otherwise inherent in primacy, perfection, changelessness, eternity, universality, absoluteness, and infinity." UB 1955
Click to expand...

So Jesus is not the son!
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
firedragon said:
Well, he never said anything about a Trinity either.
Click to expand...
As a result of his successful incarnation he said "all power and authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me".

Those things which we cannot fully understand in time we will come to understand in eternity.
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
one leg.png

1/3 of a Trinity can't go off on vacation and be killed. It would no longer be the indivisible, eternal Trinity.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
cOLTER said:
As a result of his successful incarnation he said "all power and authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me".

Those things which we cannot fully understand in time we will come to understand in eternity.
Click to expand...
he never said anything about a Trinity either.
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
cOLTER said:
The Trinity has Father, Son and Spirit, all of which are a the I AM.
Click to expand...

There is no trinity in the scriptures....period. The Jews never knew their God as part of a trinity. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Jesus never once claimed any equality with his superior Father who was also his God. Even when he returned to heaven, the Father was still his God. (Revelation 3:12)

In reference to the "I AM" it is interesting that God has never used that designation to describe himself.
From the Tanakh Exodus 3:13-15 reads...

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

14God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר"

You can see that God's name יְהֹוָ֞ה means...not "I AM"....but "I Will Be". It bears no correlation to John 8:58 at all. God has only one name (Psalm 83:18 KJV, ASV) ...but Jesus has several names, depending upon which role he is playing.

Jesus never taught a triune concept. He is the “son” of a Father, which makes him younger than the one who is responsible for his existence. He is "only begotten" because he is the first and only direct creation of his Father....the rest of creation came "through" the son, but not "from" him. (Colossians 1:15-17)

If their relationship was not understandable by us humans here on earth, then why would God describe their relationship in human terms? If they were equal in any way, then their relationship would have been described accordingly. Jesus was the "son of God" long before he became the human 'son of Mary'.

As for Jesus being Michael the Archangel, there is reason to believe that this is the case. There are only two angels mentioned by name in the Bible in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures..."Michael" and "Gabriel".

Only two individuals are described as having angelic armies under their command...Jesus and Michael. They are very likely the same personage in different roles.

Micheal is called “the great prince who is standing in behalf of God’s people” (Daniel 12:1) is also described as being a key figure in the eviction of Satan from heaven. But taking the Revelation as a prophesy, it is apparent that this eviction was to take place in “the Lord’s day”....a time future to the time of John's writing. Placing that eviction in a timeline, “the Lord’s day” is the time period that sees the rule of God’s Kingdom taking control of the earth. (Daniel 2:44) We are living in the days of the last kings of Daniel's prophesy.

Satan's anger continues to escalate as his days are running out. (Revelation 12:7-12) When have we ever seen the whole world in such unrelenting turmoil?

Reference to the "woman" in Revelation is not Mary....but rather it is applied to God's symbolic "wife"....his heavenly support system of spirit creatures. This is where Jesus came from. His life was transferred from heaven to the womb of a Jewish virgin in order for him to be born sinless and to offer his life in behalf of all who put faith in him as their redeemer.

If we correlate the events of Daniel’s prophesy with the events in Revelation, we can see that they describe the same period. Daniel was told to seal up his book because it was for "the time of the end" when it would be understood....but not before then. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) I believe that we are deep into the time of the end right now.
Satan has been cast out of heaven and only then was Jesus to receive "authority" to rule as King. If he was God, he needed no authority to be given to him. (Matthew 28:18) His rulership begins with "woe for the earth" as satan intensifies his assault on God's existence and his character, and as he continues to target his worshippers. Only when Jesus finally throws satan and his hordes into the abyss, and rids the world of the godless "goats", will this assault cease. (Revelation 20:1-3) Only then can the rebuilding begin and peace be restored to mankind. (Revelation 21:2-4)

That Trinity created Jesus who is our Creator Son. His Father is our Grandfather. All of these divine beings are unified indistinguishably as One in spirit, they are God to us. Its non-understandable to the finite mind.
Click to expand...

It is not understood because it makes no sense. Jehovah (Yahweh) is "the only true God" according to Jesus (John 17:3) and since Jesus did not include himself in that designation, but referred to himself as "sent" by his Father, their relationship is now, and always has been, that of a son to a Father.

Jesus is not a "creator" and has never referred to himself as such. He is the "master worker" alongside his Father in creation (Proverbs 8:30-31) He is the agency "through" which the creation came, but he did not produce the raw materials...he merely constructed them as the reference in Genesis 1:26 states..."Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness".....Jesus and his Father are the "us" and "our" in that verse....together they constructed everything, both in heaven and on earth......and the power used to accomplish it all was God's holy spirit, which is not of itself an entity, but rather the powerful force used by God to accomplish his will.

That is my understanding....
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
mmarco said:
The fundamental reason why I believe that Christ is God, is that I find that the christian concept of God and of divine love is the highest possible concept. I find that the idea itself that God loves us so much that He chose to assume the human nature and accepted to suffer crucifission in order to save us, expresses such a high concept of God and of divine love that it can comes only from God and it is certainly a truth. This concept is fully convincing for me, it proves itself by itself and makes superfluous any other arguments . I believe that Chirst suffered His Passion to help us to have faith in Him and trust Him, to make us understand that God loves us infinitely, that God is good and mercifull and that God is near to us so that we may totally trust Him and open our heart to Him, be in communion with Him and be saved.
There are other religions teaching that God is love, but the problem is to define what the word “love” means, because by itself it could be only a vague and generic concept.
The christian faith is unique because it gives a very concrete and unique meaning to the concept of divine love: in fact God’s love actualizes in the acceptance of a terrible physical suffering; the God of the christian faith loves us so much that He is willing to suffer a painful death in order to save us. In the christian faith, love is not only a theoretical and vague concept; Christ’s Passion is a clear and concrete realization of the concept of divine love which teaches us what is the true meaning of love. I think that this christian idea of divine love is the highest possible concept of divine love and it is the fundamental reason why I believe that Christ is God.
Click to expand...
Interesting ^ above^ but I find that Jesus believed that he is the Son of God according to Jesus' own answer found at John 10:36.
So, as 'religious truth' Jesus believed he is God's Son, and still thinks he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12.
Thus, it is No wonder that John wrote that pre-human heavenly Jesus was the beginning of God's creation - Revelation 3:14 B
Psalms 90:2 informs us that God is from everlasting, so only God was ' before ' the beginning of anything.
Whereas, Jesus was "in" the beginning, but Jesus was never ' before' the beginning as his God was ' before ' the beginning.

The world often displays a selfish-distorted form of love as described at 2 Timothy 3:1-5
Whereas, the Bible's definition of divine love, Christ-like love, is defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6
Jesus defined what 'divine love' really is at John 13:34-35
We are to have the same self-sacrificing love as Jesus has towards others.
In other words, we are now to love neighbor 'more' than self, more than the Golden Rule.
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
Deeje said:
There is no trinity in the scriptures....period. The Jews never knew their God as part of a trinity. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Jesus never once claimed any equality with his superior Father who was also his God. Even when he returned to heaven, the Father was still his God. (Revelation 3:12)

In reference to the "I AM" it is interesting that God has never used that designation to describe himself.
From the Tanakh Exodus 3:13-15 reads...

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

14God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר"

You can see that God's name יְהֹוָ֞ה means...not "I AM"....but "I Will Be". It bears no correlation to John 8:58 at all. God has only one name (Psalm 83:18 KJV, ASV) ...but Jesus has several names, depending upon which role he is playing.

Jesus never taught a triune concept. He is the “son” of a Father, which makes him younger than the one who is responsible for his existence. He is "only begotten" because he is the first and only direct creation of his Father....the rest of creation came "through" the son, but not "from" him. (Colossians 1:15-17)

If their relationship was not understandable by us humans here on earth, then why would God describe their relationship in human terms? If they were equal in any way, then their relationship would have been described accordingly. Jesus was the "son of God" long before he became the human 'son of Mary'.

As for Jesus being Michael the Archangel, there is reason to believe that this is the case. There are only two angels mentioned by name in the Bible in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures..."Michael" and "Gabriel".

Only two individuals are described as having angelic armies under their command...Jesus and Michael. They are very likely the same personage in different roles.

Micheal is called “the great prince who is standing in behalf of God’s people” (Daniel 12:1) is also described as being a key figure in the eviction of Satan from heaven. But taking the Revelation as a prophesy, it is apparent that this eviction was to take place in “the Lord’s day”....a time future to the time of John's writing. Placing that eviction in a timeline, “the Lord’s day” is the time period that sees the rule of God’s Kingdom taking control of the earth. (Daniel 2:44) We are living in the days of the last kings of Daniel's prophesy.

Satan's anger continues to escalate as his days are running out. (Revelation 12:7-12) When have we ever seen the whole world in such unrelenting turmoil?

Reference to the "woman" in Revelation is not Mary....but rather it is applied to God's symbolic "wife"....his heavenly support system of spirit creatures. This is where Jesus came from. His life was transferred from heaven to the womb of a Jewish virgin in order for him to be born sinless and to offer his life in behalf of all who put faith in him as their redeemer.

If we correlate the events of Daniel’s prophesy with the events in Revelation, we can see that they describe the same period. Daniel was told to seal up his book because it was for "the time of the end" when it would be understood....but not before then. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) I believe that we are deep into the time of the end right now.
Satan has been cast out of heaven and only then was Jesus to receive "authority" to rule as King. If he was God, he needed no authority to be given to him. (Matthew 28:18) His rulership begins with "woe for the earth" as satan intensifies his assault on God's existence and his character, and as he continues to target his worshippers. Only when Jesus finally throws satan and his hordes into the abyss, and rids the world of the godless "goats", will this assault cease. (Revelation 20:1-3) Only then can the rebuilding begin and peace be restored to mankind. (Revelation 21:2-4)



It is not understood because it makes no sense. Jehovah (Yahweh) is "the only true God" according to Jesus (John 17:3) and since Jesus did not include himself in that designation, but referred to himself as "sent" by his Father, their relationship is now, and always has been, that of a son to a Father.

Jesus is not a "creator" and has never referred to himself as such. He is the "master worker" alongside his Father in creation (Proverbs 8:30-31) He is the agency "through" which the creation came, but he did not produce the raw materials...he merely constructed them as the reference in Genesis 1:26 states..."Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness".....Jesus and his Father are the "us" and "our" in that verse....together they constructed everything, both in heaven and on earth......and the power used to accomplish it all was God's holy spirit, which is not of itself an entity, but rather the powerful force used by God to accomplish his will.

That is my understanding....
Click to expand...
Nor did the Jews have a concept of God having a Son in heaven who was coming down but he did.
I don’t believe Jesus is coequal but he is divine.
 
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