Why I Believe the Bible is the Word of God

[katiemygirl]

Yes, that is another question and let's cross one bridge at a time

It may seem that I am splitting hairs but I think they are important hairs to split One analogy I like to use is to think of the bible as a radio and the Word of God as the transmission coming through it. The medium is not the message. And you might also hear a lot of static. You've got to properly tune it

I have no problem with your analogy. I would like to know, however, whether or not you believe the Bible is inspired. When I say Bible, I am referring to the manuscripts that make up the 66 books. Are the words found in those manuscripts God breathed?

 

[sojourner]

I was once catholic like many of yourselves, them I shifted to Protestantism like many of yourselves because I found a stronger study of the scripture to be more applicable to my life, but I eventually became an atheist. The catalyst for me becoming an atheist is that prayer became irrelevant in my life. Whether I prayed or didn't pray for something, I noticed that there are typically several causes to a result. And that adding God as a cause was pointless, that he was actually the least likely cause. I don't want this to sound like it happened in one night, be cause it took six years from when I began to doubt to when I felt comfortable calling myself an atheist. I'm am curious to for anyone to explain why and how prayer brought you closer to God since it actually brought me further from God. I just find it interesting that the same thing (prayer) can cause both more belief and less belief. How is this resolved?

It's because you were viewing prayer as a results-oriented activity, instead of a way-of-being.

 

[nazz]

I have no problem with your analogy. I would like to know, however, whether or not you believe the Bible is inspired. When I say Bible, I am referring to the manuscripts that make up the 66 books. Are the words found in those manuscripts God breathed?

I would say no, not all of them. And it is interesting that the bible itself seems to tell us that is the case:

Jer 8:8
“How can you say, ‘We are wise,
And the law of the LORD is with us’?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.

But it is quite possible that God wanted the bible to be written exactly as it is, error and all, to teach us not to rely on the fallible works of man and to reveal hidden higher truths. I do believe God speaks to us through the bible. So what is important is not what is inspired but rather what inspires us.

 

[katiemygirl]

I would say no, not all of them. And it is interesting that the bible itself seems to tell us that is the case:

Jer 8:8
“How can you say, ‘We are wise,
And the law of the LORD is with us’?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.

But it is quite possible that God wanted the bible to be written exactly as it is, error and all, to teach us not to rely on the fallible works of man and to reveal hidden higher truths. I do believe God speaks to us through the bible. So what is important is not what is inspired but rather what inspires us.

Hi Nazz. Thank you for your honesty. I wonder, however, how you decide what parts of the Bible are inspired and what parts are not. What comes from God, and what doesn't? If everyone were to approach the Bible in that way, then they could pick and choose what they like and don't like. In the end, people would do as they want, not as God wills for us to do. We could toss out the creation, the story of Noah, and the crucifixion amongst other accounts.

Jeremiah 8:8 is a favorite of Muslims. They and others have used it to discredit the Bible for years.

I don't know what Bible version you quoted from, but you may want to consider looking at other versions, and especially examine the original Hebrew language to get a more correct translation.

Here is the verse from King James. "8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain."

The verse implies that the false application and teaching of the Law by the scribes were making the Law vain .The Hebrew word lasheker in Strong's concordance means it can be a lie, vanity, sham.

Here is how I understand verses 8 and 9.

Jer 8:8 How do ye say, [God asking Israel, how can you say] We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? [He had already pointed out they weren't abiding the Law and serving Him] Lo, certainly in vain made he it; [God made the Law and it was obviously in vain or pointless because Israel was rejecting it] the pen of the scribes is in vain. [therefore, the scribes' job of copying the Book, was totally in vain because they weren't abiding it]

Jer 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: [some were ashamed and dismayed] lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; [Israel had REJECTED the word of the Lord--- if they had changed it or made it all up, as you are implying, I think God would have said they have CHANGED the word of the Lord] and what wisdom is in them?

The scribes were responsible for teaching the Law and its spiritual application. By the misapplication and wrong teaching they were making the law vain, a sham or a lie. Jesus accused the scribes of the same thing in the New Testament.

Verse 7 shows us that the people didn't know the requirements of the Lord, not that they do not have them. It is no different today. People don't know what God wants, but it's not because His will is not available to them. Even when the scribes were copying the books of the Law and the Prophets available at that time, (about 600 + BC) it meant nothing to them. It was vanity. They didn't need to change anything. In the same way, people today don't need to actually change the Word of God, although many do. They simply have to interpret it incorrectly or ignore it. The scribes, teachers, and prophets were claiming everything was good with what they were doing according to the Law, when in fact it was all lies. Verse 9 shows they were rejecting the word of the Lord and applying it falsely, not corrupting/rewriting the actual text.

If you look at this verse in its context (see chapter 7 also), it isn't about the scribes rewriting the Word of God. They are simply promoting their own vanities. They were giving false prophesies and claiming them to be of God. The book of Jeremiah was about Judah going after idols and Baal, and not keeping God's commandments. If you go back to chapter 7 you see God calling His people back to obedience to Him, and what will happen to them if they don't obey. He continues in chapter 8.

Thanks to Jesus, Himself, we know that the Bible we have with us today is true and to be trusted. He said that He did not come to abolish the Law or Prophets but to fulfill them. So we know that the prophets' writings that were available in the time of Jesus, and before, were true and authentic. Otherwise Jesus would have brought out that point. Instead He affirms their witness and states that He, Himself, is the fulfillment of what they pointed to.

I would ask you this. If the scribes changed the Scriptures, how logical would it be for them to put a verse in saying that it was all lies? I mean if the Scribes meant to mislead people, why would they say they lied? Wouldn't that be like shooting themselves in the foot? Just sayin....

God Bless,

Katie

 

[nazz]

Hi Nazz. Thank you for your honesty. I wonder, however, how you decide what parts of the Bible are inspired and what parts are not. What comes from God, and what doesn't? If everyone were to approach the Bible in that way, then they could pick and choose what they like and don't like. In the end, people would do as they want, not as God wills for us to do. We could toss out the creation, the story of Noah, and the crucifixion amongst other accounts.

I figured you'd ask me that! The answer is I don't! I just read the words and let them speak to me. Sometimes they tell me about the God revealed in and through Jesus and sometimes they talk about another who is not that God. And sometimes they just reveal a very human agenda. As I said God may have intended all of that to be included to teach us things.

Regarding those "stories" you mention I just treat them as such--stories. I am not concerned with their supposed factual basis which is often contradicted by external scientific and historical evidence. I am only concerned with what if anything they have to teach me.

Jeremiah 8:8 is a favorite of Muslims. They and others have used it to discredit the Bible for years.

I don't know what Bible version you quoted from, but you may want to consider looking at other versions, and especially examine the original Hebrew language to get a more correct translation.

Here is the verse from King James. "8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain."

The verse implies that the false application and teaching of the Law by the scribes were making the Law vain .The Hebrew word lasheker in Strong's concordance means it can be a lie, vanity, sham.

Here is how I understand verses 8 and 9.

Jer 8:8 How do ye say, [God asking Israel, how can you say] We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? [He had already pointed out they weren't abiding the Law and serving Him] Lo, certainly in vain made he it; [God made the Law and it was obviously in vain or pointless because Israel was rejecting it] the pen of the scribes is in vain. [therefore, the scribes' job of copying the Book, was totally in vain because they weren't abiding it]

I was quoting the NKJV. As to why they chose to translate it the way they did I haven't a clue but right there that should show you that what is written can vary quite a bit! If that is the case how can it be relied upon as absolute inerrant truth? Why did God not "watch over" those translators of the NKJV to make sure they rendered it correctly?

Jer 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: [some were ashamed and dismayed] lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; [Israel had REJECTED the word of the Lord--- if they had changed it or made it all up, as you are implying, I think God would have said they have CHANGED the word of the Lord] and what wisdom is in them?

Just curious, what do you make of this then?

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices

Does that not contradict what is relayed in Exodus and other books of the Law?

I would ask you this. If the scribes changed the Scriptures, how logical would it be for them to put a verse in saying that it was all lies? I mean if the Scribes meant to mislead people, why would they say they lied? Wouldn't that be like shooting themselves in the foot? Just sayin....

Jeremiah had his own personal scribe

 

[nazz]

As long as we are comparing different versions here is a fairly complete list:

Jeremiah 8:8 (KJ21) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “‘How do ye say, “We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us”? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Jeremiah 8:8 (ASV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of Jehovah is with us? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes hath wrought falsely.

Jeremiah 8:8 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can you say, We are wise, and we have the written law of the Lord [and are learned in its language and teachings]? Behold, the truth is, the lying pen of the scribes has made of the law a falsehood (a mere code of ceremonial observances).

Jeremiah 8:8 (CEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can you say, “We are wise;
we possess the Lord’s Instruction,”
when the lying pen of the scribes has surely distorted it?

Jeremiah 8:8 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise;
Adonai’s Torah is with us,”
when in fact the lying pen of the scribes
has turned it into falsehood?

Jeremiah 8:8 (CEV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 You say, “We are wise
because we have the teachings
and laws of the Lord.”
But I say that your teachers
have turned my words
into lies!

Jeremiah 8:8 (DARBY) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of Jehovah is with us? Behold, certainly the lying pen of the scribes hath made it falsehood.

Jeremiah 8:8 (DRA) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How do you say: We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Indeed the lying pen of the scribes hath wrought falsehood.

Jeremiah 8:8 (ERV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “‘You keep saying, “We have the Lord’s teachings. So we are wise!”
But this is not true, because the scribes have lied with their pens.

Jeremiah 8:8 (ESV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “How can you say, ‘We are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with us’?
But behold, the lying pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie.

Jeremiah 8:8 (ESVUK) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “How can you say, ‘We are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with us’?
But behold, the lying pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie.

Jeremiah 8:8 (EXB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “‘·You keep saying [L How can you say…?], “We are wise,
·because we have the teachings of the Lord [L and the teachings/laws/instructions of the Lord are with us].”
But actually, ·those who explain the Scriptures
have written lies with their pens [L the false pens of the scribes have made it a lie].

Jeremiah 8:8 (GNV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it, the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Jeremiah 8:8 (GW) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “‘How can you say that you are wise
and that you have the Lord’s teachings?
The scribes have used their pens to turn these teachings into lies.

Jeremiah 8:8 (GNT) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can you say that you are wise and that you know my laws? Look, the laws have been changed by dishonest scribes.

Jeremiah 8:8 (HCSB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
Punishment for Judah’s Leaders
8 “How can you claim, ‘We are wise;
the law of the Lord is with us’?
In fact, the lying pen of scribes
has produced falsehood.

Jeremiah 8:8 (ISV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can you say, ‘We’re wise,
and the Law of the Lord is with us,’
when, in fact, the deceitful pen of the scribe has made it
into something that deceives.

Jeremiah 8:8 (JUB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Behold, certainly in vain did he make the pen; the scribes were in vain.

Jeremiah 8:8 (KJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Jeremiah 8:8 (AKJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How do ye say, We are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with us?
Lo, certainly in vain made he it;
the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Jeremiah 8:8 (LEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can you say, ‘We are wise and the law of Yahweh is with us’?
Look, surely the lying stylus of the scribes has made it a lie.

Jeremiah 8:8 (TLB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can you say, “We understand his laws,” when your teachers have twisted them up to mean a thing I never said?

Jeremiah 8:8-9 (MSG) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8-9 “‘How can you say, “We know the score.
We’re the proud owners of God’s revelation”?
Look where it’s gotten you—stuck in illusion.
Your religion experts have taken you for a ride!
Your know-it-alls will be unmasked,
caught and shown up for what they are.
Look at them! They know everything but God’s Word.
Do you call that “knowing”?

Jeremiah 8:8 (MEV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How do you say, “We are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with us”?
Certainly the lying pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie.

Jeremiah 8:8 (NOG) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “‘How can you say that you are wise
and that you have Yahweh’s teachings?
The scribes have used their pens to turn these teachings into lies.

Jeremiah 8:8 (NABRE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can you say, “We are wise,
we have the law of the Lord”?
See, that has been changed into falsehood
by the lying pen of the scribes!

Jeremiah 8:8 (NASB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “How can you say, ‘We are wise,
And the law of the Lord is with us’?
But behold, the lying pen of the scribes
Has made it into a lie.

Jeremiah 8:8 (NCV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “‘You keep saying, “We are wise,
because we have the teachings of the Lord.”
But actually, those who explain the Scriptures
have written lies with their pens.

Jeremiah 8:8 (NET) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can you say, “We are wise!
We have the law of the Lord”?
The truth is, those who teach it have used their writings
to make it say what it does not really mean.

Jeremiah 8:8 (NIRV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “‘“How can you people say, ‘We are wise.
We have the law of the Lord’?
Actually, the teachers of the law have told lies about it.
Their pens have not written what is true.

Jeremiah 8:8 (NIV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the Lord,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

Jeremiah 8:8 (NIVUK) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 ‘“How can you say, ‘We are wise,
for we have the law of the Lord,’
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

Jeremiah 8:8 (NKJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “How can you say, ‘We are wise,
And the law of the Lord is with us’?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.

Jeremiah 8:8 (NLV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us’? See, the lying hand of the writers has made it into a lie.

Jeremiah 8:8 (NLT) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise because we have the word of the Lord,”
when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?

Jeremiah 8:8 (NRSV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can you say, “We are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with us,”
when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie?

Jeremiah 8:8 (NRSVA) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can you say, ‘We are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with us’,
when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie?

Jeremiah 8:8 (NRSVACE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can you say, ‘We are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with us’,
when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie?

Jeremiah 8:8 (NRSVCE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can you say, “We are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with us,”
when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie?

Yirmeyah 8:8 (OJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can ye say, We are chachamim (wise ones), and the torat Hashem is with us, when, hinei, the et sheker (deceiving pen) of the sofrim (scribes) has made it [the torat Hashem] into sheker (a falsehood, i.e., falsely authoritative scribal interpretation has twisted Scripture, perverting its truth; see also Jer 2:8; 2K3:16; here is a warning against false teachers, and it is important because the scribal group in Israel would become the rabbinic group in time to come, and here their doctrines are coming into direct opposition to the Torah and the inerrant prophecies of Jeremiah.).

Jeremiah 8:8 (RSV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “How can you say, ‘We are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with us’?
But behold, the false pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie.

Jeremiah 8:8 (RSVCE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “How can you say, ‘We are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with us’?
But behold, the false pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie.

Jeremiah 8:8 (VOICE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How can any of you say, “We are wise, because we have the Eternal’s law”?
How little you care about the truth!
A pen in the hand of your teachers drips nothing but lies.

Jeremiah 8:8 (WEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 “‘How do you say, “We are wise, and Yahweh’s law is with us?”
But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has worked falsely.

Jeremiah 8:8 (WYC) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How say ye, We be wise men, and the law of the Lord is with us? Verily the false stylus, either writing, of scribes wrought leasing. (How can ye say, We be wise men, and the Law of the Lord is with us? Truly the false stylus, or the deceitful writing, of the writers hath wrought lies.)

Jeremiah 8:8 (YLT) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 How do ye say, We [are] wise, And the law of Jehovah [is] with us? Surely, lo, falsely it hath wrought, The false pen of scribes.

It would seem the overwhelming majority of these indicate the scribes lied.

 

[Ingledsva]

LOL! NAZZ - There aren't enough translations there. I have to add one more, mine.

Jer 8:8 How can you avouch/boast, We are wise, and Torah of YHVH is with us, of assurity? Look and understand, the deceitful/vain appoint the scribes' pen to wrongful transcription.

*

 

[katiemygirl]

"nazz, post: 4059422, member: 40186"]
I was quoting the NKJV. As to why they chose to translate it the way they did I haven't a clue but right there that should show you that what is written can vary quite a bit! If that is the case how can it be relied upon as absolute inerrant truth? Why did God not "watch over" those translators of the NKJV to make sure they rendered it correctly?


Just curious, what do you make of this then?

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices

Does that not contradict what is relayed in Exodus and other books of the Law?

Hi Nazz,

I like your questions.

I can't answer why God chose to allow the many translations to be created without His oversight. All I know is that He promised to preserve His word forever, and He has kept His promise. It's always best to look at a variety of translations when trying to understand what is being said, but more importantly, you need to go to the original manuscripts and language. Then you can make some sort of educated conclusion. Context is very important as well.

Here is Jeremiah 7:22-23 from the NIV.

"For when I brought your ancestors out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in obedience to all I command you, that it may go well with you.

The sacrifices that were designed by God to bring sinful mankind back to God had been completely perverted. Burnt offerings were to be totally consumed on the altar, however, some were burnt only in part, and the rest eaten by the priests or the one offering the sacrifice. Meat was not eaten by Jews on a regular basis, so some were offering sacrifices just so they could have the meat to eat. God is not saying He rejects sacrifices, but the motive behind the sacrifices.

Another point to consider is this. The Bible is filled with rhetorical devices. I believe the writer in this case is using parallelism to make a powerful point. In the case of Jeremiah 22-23, the emphasis is on obedience, which comes from faith in and love for God.

Blessings,

Katie

PS Can't figure out how to use the quotes. It is different than any other forum I've been on.

 

[katiemygirl]

NAZZ SAID:
"It would seem the overwhelming majority of these indicate the scribes lied."

Why did Jesus say He came to fulfill the law and the prophets if the Scriptures the Jews had during the time of Jesus were lies?

When a verse is isolated away from it's context, it's easy to twist its meaning and intent. It seems your mind is made up about the Bible. You don't believe it is inspired, except in part, and even then, you can't identify which parts are from God and which are not. No human would be capable of that. There really isn't anything I could say that would matter. Either you believe that the Bible is inspired or you don't.

Blessings,

Katie

 

[nazz]

NAZZ SAID:
"It would seem the overwhelming majority of these indicate the scribes lied."

Yes, and as you suggested I checked the Hebrew. The Hebrew word used is sheqer which according to Strong's means:

1. lie, deception, disappointment, falsehood
   
   1. deception (what deceives or disappoints or betrays one)
      
      
   2. deceit, fraud, wrong
      
      1. fraudulently, wrongfully (as adverb)
         
   3. falsehood (injurious in testimony)
      
      1. testify falsehood, false oath, swear falsely
         
   4. falsity (of false or self-deceived prophets)
      
      
   5. lie, falsehood (in general)
      
      1. false tongue
         
   6. in vain
      

It is translated in the KJV as lie (28x), lying (21x), false (20x), falsehood (13x), falsely (13x), vain (5x), wrongfully (4x), deceitful (2x), deceit (1x), liar (1x), misc (5x).

Again, the important question here that you've not addressed is why can't the translators agree?

Why did Jesus say He came to fulfill the law and the prophets if the Scriptures the Jews had during the time of Jesus were lies?

Oh, katie, in vain do you search for consistency! I suffered from that malady for many years as well. I finally admitted it does not exist. But look, just because somebody distorts something doesn't mean there is no truth to what they say. Have you never heard it said that the devil mixes truth with lies to make it more believable? We could discuss what that passage is saying but it would be another subject.

When a verse is isolated away from it's context, it's easy to twist its meaning and intent.

Is that what the overwhelming number of translators are doing?

It seems your mind is made up about the Bible. You don't believe it is inspired, except in part, and even then, you can't identify which parts are from God and which are not. No human would be capable of that. There really isn't anything I could say that would matter. Either you believe that the Bible is inspired or you don't.

I believe it was all inspired by something.

I don't think you are really following how I view the Bible.

 

[nazz]

Here's the bottom line katie. I no longer have to worry about which canon is the right one or which set of manuscripts to rely upon. I no longer have to fret over which translation faithfully preserves "God's Word". And I no longer concern myself over which interpretation of those words is correct. Or why God would allow so many "false" versions to circulate. Or how I am supposed to extract a consistent message from what is a man made book. Thank God I am finally free of all that and no longer waste my time in those fruitless endeavors. And I am free to be inspired by the Bible and many other sacred writings as well. I can draw knowledge from many sources both written an unwritten and it's all good

 

[katiemygirl]

Here's the bottom line katie. I no longer have to worry about which canon is the right one or which set of manuscripts to rely upon. I no longer have to fret over which translation faithfully preserves "God's Word". And I no longer concern myself over which interpretation of those words is correct. Or why God would allow so many "false" versions to circulate. Or how I am supposed to extract a consistent message from what is a man made book. Thank God I am finally free of all that and no longer waste my time in those fruitless endeavors. And I am free to be inspired by the Bible and many other sacred writings as well. I can draw knowledge from many sources both written an unwritten and it's all good

And you are free to reject the parts you don't like. That is exactly what Satan would have us do. He's an expert in the department of deceit. He's been at it since the dawn of time. God told Adam & Eve that if they ate from the tree of knowledge they would surely die. Satan told Eve, You shall NOT surely die." Now, because of that one little word change, we die.

Nazz, if you are happy with your approach to God, who am I to tell you you are wrong. We must each find our own way and pray it's okay in the eyes of God.

 

[nazz]

And you are free to reject the parts you don't like.

I wouldn't characterize it as rejecting what I don't "like". There is a lot of good stuff, good for me, I have problems liking. Rather I reject things that do not line up with what I know about God through Jesus. And I bet if we drilled down we'd find there is some stuff you reject as well.

But "rejection" is not even quite the right word. Understood properly all of it is instructive in its own way.

That is exactly what Satan would have us do. He's an expert in the department of deceit. He's been at it since the dawn of time. God told Adam & Eve that if they ate from the tree of knowledge they would surely die. Satan told Eve, You shall NOT surely die." Now, because of that one little word change, we die.

Well see, I am of the opinion that the Serpent is the one who spoke the truth. Gnostics view the Serpent as an agent of the Holy Spirit. But that's another subject

Nazz, if you are happy with your approach to God, who am I to tell you you are wrong. We must each find our own way and pray it's okay in the eyes of God.

We can agree on that

 

[katiemygirl]

Yes, and as you suggested I checked the Hebrew. The Hebrew word used is sheqer which according to Strong's means:

1. lie, deception, disappointment, falsehood
   1. deception (what deceives or disappoints or betrays one)
      
      
   2. deceit, fraud, wrong
      1. fraudulently, wrongfully (as adverb)
   3. falsehood (injurious in testimony)
      1. testify falsehood, false oath, swear falsely
   4. falsity (of false or self-deceived prophets)
      
      
   5. lie, falsehood (in general)
      1. false tongue
   6. in vain

It is translated in the KJV as lie (28x), lying (21x), false (20x), falsehood (13x), falsely (13x), vain (5x), wrongfully (4x), deceitful (2x), deceit (1x), liar (1x), misc (5x).

Again, the important question here that you've not addressed is why can't the translators agree?


Oh, katie, in vain do you search for consistency! I suffered from that malady for many years as well. I finally admitted it does not exist. But look, just because somebody distorts something doesn't mean there is no truth to what they say. Have you never heard it said that the devil mixes truth with lies to make it more believable? We could discuss what that passage is saying but it would be another subject.


Is that what the overwhelming number of translators are doing?


I believe it was all inspired by something.

I don't think you are really following how I view the Bible.

I wouldn't characterize it as rejecting what I don't "like". There is a lot of good stuff, good for me, I have problems liking. Rather I reject things that do not line up with what I know about God through Jesus. And I bet if we drilled down we'd find there is some stuff you reject as well.

But "rejection" is not even quite the right word. Understood properly all of it is instructive in its own way.


Well see, I am of the opinion that the Serpent is the one who spoke the truth. Gnostics view the Serpent as an agent of the Holy Spirit. But that's another subject


We can agree on that

I wouldn't characterize it as rejecting what I don't "like". There is a lot of good stuff, good for me, I have problems liking. Rather I reject things that do not line up with what I know about God through Jesus. And I bet if we drilled down we'd find there is some stuff you reject as well.

But "rejection" is not even quite the right word. Understood properly all of it is instructive in its own way.


Well see, I am of the opinion that the Serpent is the one who spoke the truth. Gnostics view the Serpent as an agent of the Holy Spirit. But that's another subject


We can agree on that

I accept the entire Bible as inspired by God. There is not one part I reject. I'm the first to say I don't always understand some things, but I know a ton more than I did before I began to read and study. Funny how that works. I can read a passage and not have a clue about it, and then the next time I read it, it makes a lot more sense. That's the Holy Spirit at work in me. I love those aha moments. I suspect you have them too.

No translator has changed what God would have us do to be saved. You can argue about verses in Jeremiah 7 & 8, but when you read the Bible, you still come away knowing how to be saved and how to live a life pleasing to God. That's what matters.

 

[nazz]

I accept the entire Bible as inspired by God. There is not one part I reject.

Christ himself tells us to reject some things like an eye for an eye, hating enemies, swearing oaths, divorcing for any old reason. All of these were part of the Law recorded in the bible.

I'm the first to say I don't always understand some things, but I know a ton more than I did before I began to read and study. Funny how that works. I can read a passage and not have a clue about it, and then the next time I read it, it makes a lot more sense. That's the Holy Spirit at work in me. I love those aha moments. I suspect you have them too.

Oh yes, all the time.

No translator has changed what God would have us do to be saved. You can argue about verses in Jeremiah 7 & 8, but when you read the Bible, you still come away knowing how to be saved and how to live a life pleasing to God. That's what matters.

I agree that is what matters though I suspect we would not agree on what it means to be "saved" And one can come to Christ without ever having read a single word in the bible.

 

[katiemygirl]

Christ himself tells us to reject some things like an eye for an eye, hating enemies, swearing oaths, divorcing for any old reason. All of these were part of the Law recorded in the bible.


Oh yes, all the time.


I agree that is what matters though I suspect we would not agree on what it means to be "saved" And one can come to Christ without ever having read a single word in the bible.

I don't reject that God said to reject the old ways of an eye for an eye, hating enemies, etc. He said those things. Those sayings were God breathed. I reject doing those things, just as Jesus tells us to.

It would be pretty hard to not know God's plan of salvation. It's clearly stated in numerous places. Believe Jesus is the Son of God, repent, confess Jesus before men, be baptized, be faithful.

I agree that one can come to Jesus without reading the Bible, but I've no doubt that one must hear the words of Jesus to be saved.

 

[nazz]

I don't reject that God said to reject the old ways of an eye for an eye, hating enemies, etc. He said those things. Those sayings were God breathed. I reject doing those things, just as Jesus tells us to.

Jesus never said God said those things. Instead he said "you have heard that it was said to those of old". In one instance Jesus even says that Moses gave a law that contradicted God's intention (regarding divorce). If God had really said those things then why would Jesus tell us not to follow them? In the Torah it says that God's laws can never be changed; they can't be added to or subtracted from. But that is what Jesus did.

It would be pretty hard to not know God's plan of salvation. It's clearly stated in numerous places. Believe Jesus is the Son of God, repent, confess Jesus before men, be baptized, be faithful.

Thing is Christians don't agree entirely on that and can use Scripture to back up their views. You have the Catholic view for instance that you are probably aware of. You have the Calvinist-Arminian divide. You have the "Lordship salvation" folks and you have the "cheap Grace" crowd. You have the radical grace movement where people say you don't even have to accept Jesus to be saved. And some will say you can lose your salvation and other believed in eternal security. Who is right, who is wrong? All point to the words of the bible to support their views.

I agree that one can come to Jesus without reading the Bible, but I've no doubt that one must hear the words of Jesus to be saved.

And that word can be heard directly without even opening the bible

 

[2ndpillar]

I was asked this question in another thread. My answer below is not written to convince anyone of anything.

My belief that the Bible is the word of God comes from my belief in God, Himself. I was born into a catholic family and was educated in a parochial school. My Mother became a catholic when she married my Father, however, she really never bought into the catholic religion. (I never did either). She sent her kids to catholic school because she wanted us to get a good education. My Father did work for the church, which paid for our tuition. My Father never went to church, except maybe on Christmas or Easter. So there was really never any talk about church doctrine in the house. Most conversation about religion was centered on God. My Mom was a strong believer in God, and she was a good christian woman, always doing things for others. She talked about God a lot when I was a kid, about His wonderful creation, and the beauty she saw all around us. She had a lot of faith in God, but most of all, I remember that she had tremendous faith in the power of prayer. Regardless of any problems I may have ever encountered as a child, when I would go to her and tell her about them, the answer was always the same. She would always say, "Have you talked to God about it? Have you prayed?" My Mom never talked about the church at home, but she made sure she and her kids were there every Sunday. As I grew older, I stopped going to church, but I never lost my love for or my faith in God. It turned out that my Mother was right about prayer. I cannot begin to count the many times in my life that I have prayed to God for one thing or another, and He answered me. Not just answered me, but profoundly answered me. My answered prayers of a lifetime is proof enough for me that God exists. My belief in God has since translated into my belief in the Bible.

As I grew older, I began to be curious about the Bible. I had never seen one in our home as a child, and come to think of it, I didn't see one at school or church either. When I had the opportunity to study the Bible, I jumped at it. From the beginning, I was hooked, and had a great desire to learn more and more about it. The more I studied, the more I believed the words to be true. Eventually, I renounced the catholic religion, as did my Mother, and became a christian. I obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ in 1977 and haven't looked back.

There are so many reasons I believe the Bible is God's word. Besides my faith, and my own experiences, one thing that has always impressed me is the fact that the Bible was written by about forty men, in three different languages, from different parts of the world, over a span of hundreds and hundreds of years, yet it is unified in theme. That amazes me. I've asked myself how that could be. It wasn't like they had the internet back then. The Bible has also stood the test of time, regardless of how many have tried to destroy it. Roman emperors, communists, atheists, politicians, psychologists and more have attacked and discredited it. Some have called it a myth. Yet it has influenced more people than any other book in history. It has transformed many lives throughout thousands of years. There are numerous evidences for the Bible being the word of God: history, science, archaeology, and more support it's validity. These evidences can be found all over the internet if one has a desire to seek them out.

Blessings,

Katie

Dear Katie,
From going from the Catholic church to the Protestant church, you have simply gone from the frying pan into the fire. It was the Roman emperor, Constantine, who published the first 50 copies of a bible in his attempt to unify his empire under a unified pagan/christian religion. It was the Roman Catholic bishop of Alexandria, who actually compiled the canon you use. A saint in the eyes of the Catholics, but a dubious character in real life. It is the communist dictator of the U.S., Hussein Soetoro, who apparently embraces your Christianity and even makes up bible quotes. There is no unified theme except that the "Christians" all follow the false prophet Paul, whose gospel is the gospel of Grace, whereas the gospel of Yeshua was the gospel of the kingdom. The two gospels are antithetical to each other. The bible contains the good seed as well as the seed of the tares, and the tares shall remain until the " end of the age" (Mt 13:40).

 

[Hawkins]

Dear Katie,
From going from the Catholic church to the Protestant church, you have simply gone from the frying pan into the fire. It was the Roman emperor, Constantine, who published the first 50 copies of a bible in his attempt to unify his empire under a unified pagan/christian religion. It was the Roman Catholic bishop of Alexandria, who actually compiled the canon you use. A saint in the eyes of the Catholics, but a dubious character in real life. It is the communist dictator of the U.S., Hussein Soetoro, who apparently embraces your Christianity and even makes up bible quotes. There is no unified theme except that the "Christians" all follow the false prophet Paul, whose gospel is the gospel of Grace, whereas the gospel of Yeshua was the gospel of the kingdom. The two gospels are antithetical to each other. The bible contains the good seed as well as the seed of the tares, and the tares shall remain until the " end of the age" (Mt 13:40).

You mean God has to judge humans by giving them an inaccurate book combining falsehoods and His Word together?

God can only qualify Himself to judge humans when He can maintain a book consistently and accurately about Him and His Law and Grace such that the only fault is in humans instead of God.

 

[katiemygirl]

Dear Katie,
From going from the Catholic church to the Protestant church, you have simply gone from the frying pan into the fire. It was the Roman emperor, Constantine, who published the first 50 copies of a bible in his attempt to unify his empire under a unified pagan/christian religion. It was the Roman Catholic bishop of Alexandria, who actually compiled the canon you use. A saint in the eyes of the Catholics, but a dubious character in real life. It is the communist dictator of the U.S., Hussein Soetoro, who apparently embraces your Christianity and even makes up bible quotes. There is no unified theme except that the "Christians" all follow the false prophet Paul, whose gospel is the gospel of Grace, whereas the gospel of Yeshua was the gospel of the kingdom. The two gospels are antithetical to each other. The bible contains the good seed as well as the seed of the tares, and the tares shall remain until the " end of the age" (Mt 13:40).