Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
Especially when you can imagine that 'humanely' merely means 'killed quickly'.
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WHY I LEFT ISLAM - The Story of An Apostate In Saudi
- Thread starter Aaliyah Visser
- Start date
If my experience with Catholicism and the testimonials I see are any indication, probably a huge percentage, perhaps over 90% or even 99%.
Worse of all, most of them end up resigning to it and fail to understand that not everyone lives in permanent fear. There is considerable evidence that they often do not believe people when they claim to lack such fear.
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
I think the video misses an important point though. It's not Islam that needs to reform, but humanity. Humanity needs to reform so that we can live in a world without religion (but not necessarily without faiths or spirituality- although that should certainly be the ideal).
This is what I've said a number of times before. A religion is a religion. Who use it is who has the possibility of reformation. Islam already says that to each their own religion and there is no compulsion in religion, yet some people condemn apostates to death. It is clear which should be looked at here, Islam or Muslims who do the condemnation?.
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I wish I could say that I see what you mean and that I perceive a common understanding. But I don't.
One thing that bothers me is how casually and how often dangerous assumptions are made without even being stated in full, and without being challenged to the extent they deserve.
For instance, @Shia Islam 's post earlier in this thread is very worrisome indeed to me.
I hope (but doubt) that I am misunderstanding it when I see that it all but states between the lines that of course we all should believe or even know from birth that there is a creator God who established laws that it is our moral duty to fufill, and therefore if we disagree with those laws it must follow that we have found a weakness of character within ourselves.
Such thought is deeply sick and should be questioned out of existence, not tolerated without comment as it so often is. It is theocratic oppression. We all had far too much of it already, and we should accept it no more.
One thing that bothers me is how casually and how often dangerous assumptions are made without even being stated in full, and without being challenged to the extent they deserve.
For instance, @Shia Islam 's post earlier in this thread is very worrisome indeed to me.
I hope (but doubt) that I am misunderstanding it when I see that it all but states between the lines that of course we all should believe or even know from birth that there is a creator God who established laws that it is our moral duty to fufill, and therefore if we disagree with those laws it must follow that we have found a weakness of character within ourselves.
Such thought is deeply sick and should be questioned out of existence, not tolerated without comment as it so often is. It is theocratic oppression. We all had far too much of it already, and we should accept it no more.
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Both.
RebornHindu
Om Namah Shivaya
Maybe I am the only one not very educated about Islam...what needs to be reformed about it? Can someone tell me please?
How do you believe Islam can be reformed in the part of condemning apostates to death?
I'm interested.
I'd like to know that too.
Yes, you and Mycroft.
What you just said feels like it should have a clear meaning, but it doesn't really.
Fateme
Member
Islamic known to you is not real islam.you should underestand that.
It is based on the idea that people can't truly be happy and well integrated until and unless they fully acknowledge a presumed creator God and submit to his will and supposed wisdom as manifested through the Qur'an.
Which is to say, it is a high bet on the existence of such a God, and it is not really equipped to deal with some very real, very basic facts such as the existence of atheism and the need to deal with variety of beliefs and of happiness goals.
One has to wonder how real a real Islam can be if it is never met, or even known to exist, at any time or place.
Besides, it goes both ways. Islam is often presumed to be more benign and reasonable than the actual evidence suggests.
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you.
1=Sorry for what you felt......Perhaps you did not have the opportunity to see other Muslims who do not take things as the people you observed most.
2="I hope islam one day will be completely different"
You said something like this in the end.....Congratulation your cry has already been answered by Almighty and the true understanding of Islam has always been in action, exactly as promised by Allah and Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) in following as I believe:
3=Have you had chance to read these resources from wordwide Ahmadiyya Muslim Community?
Please do so and see if you get answers?
a---- The Philosophy of teachings of Islam
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf
b---- Islam's response to contemporary issues
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/IslamsResponseToContemporaryIssues.pdf
c---- World crisis and pathway to peace
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/World-Crisis-and-Pathway-to-Peace.pdf
d---- The truth about alleged punishment of apostacy
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Apostasy-in-Islam.pdf
Good wishes and one hopes you will be making a new film "Why I came back to Real-Islam by the Divine Grace".
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The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I'll take the liberty and assume that was an open question. Islam can (and should) be reformed to the extent where apostates are not punished or threatened with violence, disassociation etc for leaving Islam. To do this would require a collectively selective interpretation of Islamic scripture; perhaps even discarding verses in both Quran and the Hadith that promote violence or threats thereof against those who leave Islam. Selective interpretations already exist; considering most Muslims don't actively engage in violence against the infidel.
Its poisonous attitude towards apostates & non-Muslims, the discriminatory nature of Islamic law when applied against dhimmis, the fact polytheists have pretty much no legal protections at all, the arrogant claim that we're all born Muslims but most just deconvert. These things need to be changed if Islam is ever to cultivate a civilised & progressive society; but that's not all. The list goes on.
Fateme
Member
nothing dear.noone can reformed Quran and Islam because God Himself will protect the quran(own book) and islam.
I can't help but think that if there is a Creator God that cares about humans he ought to disapprove of that idolatrion of scripture and of static doctrine.
Daemon Sophic
Avatar in flux
Very nice, though very troubling post Aliyah Visser, and welcome to the REF.
I think that your point demonstrates the extreme danger of having theocracies. Time and again throughout history they have always decolved to the same theme of conform or die. Also as you state, similar to the treatment of homosexuals, whether it is written into law or not; when an entire society accepts the implied hatred of one group or another, then their mistreatment is readily and sometimes even happily excepted.
Whenever I think of Islamic theocracies, with most of the people trying to live simple and peaceful lives, and I try to find a Christian comparison......... I always dream up a vision of what would the US be like if the KKK became the central federal government, and the white hoods and robes were the uniforms of political office. Most citizens would continue with their simple Christian lives, but homosexuals, agnostics, blacks, atheists, Jews, Hindus, pagans, etc...etc...all of these people would be persecuted and/or killed. All the while, the majority of "peaceful" Christian citizens would either look away out of fear, or because they feel that it is righteous and good and proper.
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
If I've never encountered it, then is it really worth anything?
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
I've seen people burn Qurans. Allah never turned up.