WHY I LEFT ISLAM - The Story of An Apostate In Saudi

[outhouse]

You said it yourself that Islam had a golden age and Muslims already contributed tons to academic knowledge

YES this was a time when people were not TOO ! devoted to the religion and education and knowledge took center stage.

Now mythology takes center stage and education is last place.

 

[viole]

The news is not where you learn Islam..
Islam allowed both the Jews and the Christians to have their own places of worship within the Islamic nation...This happened since more than 1400 years back...Just try thinking deeply about this fact to realize how great is Islam.

So, it got reformed after all. In the wrong direction, I am afraid.

Ciao

- viole

 

[GoodbyeDave]

My research indicates that since 1948, the Jewish population in Iran dropped from about 150,000 to less than 9,000. Doesn't that support my claim that Muslim majority countries push out other religions? I'm not saying it proves it, but doesn't it support it?

Since 1984, thousands of Jews have left the USA for Israel, and they're still leaving. Do you believe that the US Christians are driving them out? Surely Jews moved to Israel because they were Zionists.

 

[outhouse]

Unless by academic knowledge you mean what's claimed to be real history?

islam CURRENTLY has a problem with education and science in general. because they place a an old book with mythology before credible academic knowledge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_science

In the Muslim world today, most of the focus on the relation between Islam and science involves scientific interpretations of the Quran (and sometimes the Sunna) that claim to show that these sources make prescient statements about the nature of the universe, biological development and other phenomena later confirmed by scientific research, thus demonstrating proof of the divine origin of the Qur'an (and sometimes the Sunna). This effort has been criticized by scientists and philosophers as containing logical fallacies,[1] being unscientific, likely to be contradicted by evolving scientific theories.[2][3]

 

[Smart_Guy]

YES this was a time when people were not TOO ! devoted to the religion and education and knowledge took center stage.

Now mythology takes center stage and education is last place.

Well, it's easy to claim that Muslim at some point in the past were not too devoted just because it supports your argument

Also, what you're saying makes devoted teachers, scientists, gate keepers, etc. look bad.

islam CURRENTLY has a problem with education and science in general. because they place a an old book with mythology before credible academic knowledge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_science

In the Muslim world today, most of the focus on the relation between Islam and science involves scientific interpretations of the Quran (and sometimes the Sunna) that claim to show that these sources make prescient statements about the nature of the universe, biological development and other phenomena later confirmed by scientific research, thus demonstrating proof of the divine origin of the Qur'an (and sometimes the Sunna). This effort has been criticized by scientists and philosophers as containing logical fallacies,[1] being unscientific, likely to be contradicted by evolving scientific theories.[2][3]

Are you saying Islam in the Golden Age and Islam now are different? The Quran hasn't changed since more than 1400 years ago. Unless the Golden Age took place before that! Islam is not a being with a mind you know.

 

[LuisDantas]

The Qur'an has not changed, but it is premature to presume that such a fact would be beneficial for Islam or for Muslims. Or for anyone really.

Actually, relying on scripture is pretty much not a good idea by definition.

 

[outhouse]

what you're saying makes devoted teachers, scientists, gate keepers, etc. look bad.

They should be looked down upon. They place mythology before credible academic knowledge as stated, they are NOT scientific. They are religious instead of scientific.

Are you saying Islam in the Golden Age and Islam now are different?

Yes.

The people today are more devoted then in the past.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

YES this was a time when people were not TOO ! devoted to the religion and education and knowledge took center stage.

They were extremely devoted back then as well. It has nothing to do with devotion. Even extremely devoted Christians can accept evolution and have no problem with homosexuals.

They are religious instead of scientific.

Many scientists have been religious, and many religious people have been scientists. It's actually not at all an unusual mentality for a religious scientist to believe that by studying science, and even accepting scientific knowledge, that they are learning about the universe that god created, learning about the laws god put in place that govern the universe, and other such things.

 

[outhouse]

They were extremely devoted back then as well. It has nothing to do with devotion. Even extremely devoted Christians can accept evolution and have no problem with homosexuals.

Different levels of devotion though.

One has to have less devotion to place education before religion.

I guarantee you my highly educated theist friends are not as devoted to religion as YEC. Yes they are devoted, but this is a factual spectrum.

 

[outhouse]

Many scientists have been religious, and many religious people have been scientists. It's actually not at all an unusual mentality for a religious scientist to believe that by studying science, and even accepting scientific knowledge, that they are learning about the universe that god created, learning about the laws god put in place that govern the universe, and other such things.

Agreed.

But the most productive place education and knowledge BEFORE religion. Not after.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Islam is illiterate. Its teachers are illiterate.

Then why are there so many Muslim university students and professors? "Islam" is benign. It's powerless. What matters is who is using it and for what purposes. It's really no different than the Bible. With either one, we can find passages of compassion, peace, and love for one-another. Or, we can find and focus on passages of oppression, war, and genocide.
To put this in a modern Western perspective, we can examine the writings of Friedrich Nietzsche. He wrote some very nasty things, some very hateful things, and rather quite a few things that we just wouldn't even consider taking seriously. He was also loved by the Nazis. But that doesn't stop us from focusing on the parts of his writings that we do like and agree with. The potential of a cruel and psychopathic Ubermensch is very much there, but we excuse those parts of cruelty and using people as an ends. We also especially downplay his raging misogyny. But, overall, they are nothing more than words on paper. Whether someone wants to interpret them as promoting an Aryan blond beast of prey or something more along the lines of Maslow's Self-Actualization, that is another issue.
Like it or not, Islam isn't what needs reformed, but rather these deeply and radically conservative Islamic cultures are what need reformed, and everybody else needs to mind their own business and not try to force reformation, because that has only deepened and worsened their radically conservative cultures. Sorta like how Christianity was never really reformed (the adherents just have a long history of disagreeing with each other, and for the most part, eventually not killing each other over it), but Western cultures that follow Christianity are what have been reformed, and are continuing to be reformed.

 

[outhouse]

"Islam" is benign. It's powerless.

That's the problem.

It has no leadership or control, its like the wild wild west, where bloodshed and genocide reign

Sectarian violence controls the populations in many places.

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

And who could accept these as anything but primitive?

My point to is not argue whether such pactices are primitive or not, I just thought that I could add to the discussion by helping people realise that the version of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia (along with the death penalty for apostasy being mandatory, beheadings and the niqab) is not mainstream or representative of Islam so it's not fair to generalise

 

[outhouse]

Like it or not, Islam isn't what needs reformed, but rather these deeply and radically conservative Islamic cultures are what need reformed

Islam has caused these problems, and islam is not innocent, IMHO and most of the western world agrees with me on this, as well as much of the eastern world.

You cannot continue to defend Islamic fanaticism and fundamentalism as acceptable.

and everybody else needs to mind their own business

Liberal rhetoric.

Their problem is murdering thousands everywhere.

 

[outhouse]

My point to is not argue whether such pactices are primitive or not, I just thought that I could add to the discussion by helping people realise that the version of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia (along with the death penalty for apostasy being mandatory, beheadings and the niqab) is not mainstream or representative of Islam so it's not fair to generalise

How many islamic people, what percentage wants Sharia? We have to recognize the problem as Islamic, if islam is going to fix the problems in islam.

 

[leibowde84]

Corpses Do Not Bleed
An important piece of information is mentioned in the Gospel of John which supports the view that Jesus did not die on the cross:
"One of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water" (John 19:34).
Blood pouring out is a sign of intact circulation, with the spear injuring an arteriole. Note the words 'sudden flow' which implies blood pressure. The 'water' was perhaps pleural fluid, present between the rib cage and lungs.
As blood does not rush out of corpses, the quoted verse did present a problem to at least one Church Father, Origen. In his exegesis of John 19:34, he admitted that blood coagulates after death, but the flow of blood in this case constituted a miracle and thus needed no explanation. (Contra Celsus, by Origen, translated by H. Chadwick, Cambridge U).
The spear thrust into the side of Jesus was not meant as a kind of definitive blow, but as a rough (and actually inaccurate) indicator if death had occurred. If the intent were to kill, the soldier would have stabbed into the front of the chest to injure the heart. However, in the event the person was not on the cross for sufficient length of time, death was usually caused by breaking the legs, as was done with the individuals hanging along side Jesus.
http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/
Regards

This makes no sense, as the claim was not that Jesus was a corpse when the spear went into him. The spear and bloodletting is what killed him finally.

 

[outhouse]

This makes no sense,

Agreed.

Jesus crucifixion is historical. And it changes nothing that islams refuses to accept this historical knowledge, because their religion states different.


It is an example of the lack of credibility the religions has in this area.

 

[illykitty]

Are you saying Islam in the Golden Age and Islam now are different? The Quran hasn't changed since more than 1400 years ago. Unless the Golden Age took place before that! Islam is not a being with a mind you know.

I think when people talk about reform or that things change in time, it has mostly to do with interpretation. Otherwise how do you explain how many people read the exact same book but have different views and conclusions? It's not only the Quran, but every book that exists. The book might have been preserved but it's unlikely that people always have the same subjective understanding and views about what it means and how to apply its teachings.

So personally, if I say I'd like to see Islam reformed, I might not mean you have to edit the Qu'ran's text, but to change people's understanding and application of it. There's a huge difference between the person who reads it and is able to gather a peaceful message from it and a person who reads it and starts stoning lots of people to death. See what I mean? And it comes from the SAME book! Both people would also claim they're Muslims and both would say their view is the correct one and the other person isn't a real Muslim. *Shrugs*

I hope what I'm trying to say is clear.

 

[outhouse]

Western cultures that follow Christianity are what have been reformed, and are continuing to be reformed.

it helps me and what I posit, not you.

EDUCATION is what has taken place and this education has literally pushed back the mythology out of society for many who have accepted this CREDIBLE knowledge.


Some 40% in the USA are so devoted to this religion, they still refuse academic knowledge, the same way islam does.

 

[outhouse]

I think when people talk about reform or that things change in time, it has mostly to do with interpretation. Otherwise how do you explain how many people read the exact same book but have different views and conclusions? It's not only the Quran, but every book that exists. The book might have been preserved but it's unlikely that people always have the same subjective understanding and views about what it means and how to apply its teachings.

So personally, if I say I'd like to see Islam reformed, I might not mean you have to edit the Qu'ran's text, but to change people's understanding and application of it. There's a huge difference between the person who reads it and is able to gather a peaceful message from it and a person who reads it and starts stoning lots of people to death. See what I mean? And it comes from the SAME book! Both people would also claim they're Muslims and both would say their view is the correct one and the other person isn't a real Muslim. *Shrugs*

I hope what I'm trying to say is clear.

Very well put.