Why I Left ---

[A Vestigial Mote]

This is beginning to irk me. There seems to be this trend for news reporters to latch to the stories of random people who leave their religions. I've not noticed the same for the other way. It's always couched in this sort of language:

'How I escaped the Ultra Orthodox Life.'

'How I Freed Myself From The Church.'

'My Life After Wahabism.'

It goes on and on. Has it never occurred to these journalists that some people are, oh I don't know, happy in their fundamentalist religious communes? Where are all the 'I found happiness in the Charedi community' stories? I notice it's all good when someone's religious views match current social values, when people 'escape into modernity'. G-d forbid a woman could be happy with 8 kids and a husband who prays every day, right? She'll only be happy when she realises how oppressed she is and frees herself, goes to university and becomes an engineer, then someone can write an editorial all about how her childhood was terrible and all she ever knew was making babies (eventually, because she didn't know that sex existed before this, amirite?).

I put to you, the damned foolish opinion, that some people are happy in tight-knit, traditionalist religious communities and they don't need your enlightenment.

A few things on this:

1. It's not "sensational" when someone stays where they are at, or is happy for that matter.
2. Newspapers and other news outlets are always going to be more interested in the dirt on someone or something - 'cause "shocking" titles catch a casual readers' eyes much more readily
3. From my own experience listening to people, it seems a large percentage of people absolutely love to hear about the downfall and failings of the others of even their own umbrella faith who are "doing it wrong."

So, newspapers don't feel they have anything to report when someone is just fine and dandy within their belief system - why would/should they? But when someone wants to get out, they know there will be a nice big chunk of potential customers salivating at the chance to confirm their "I just knew those weirdos were up to something..." suspicions of those who don't believe precisely as they do.

 

[sealchan]

Headlines news...Woman who was Christian since birth still enjoys praying to Jesus...*yawn*...Christian High school graduate credits his faith for his accomplishment...and...Pastor celebrates his 100th marriage ceremony.

And now the news for parrots...

 

[ADigitalArtist]

No, mostly promoting socially liberal values that go against conservative religious ones. 'You'll be happier if you have a career', 'You'll be happy if you sleep around', 'You should get an abortion you already have 3 kids,' 'Marriage is out-dated' and so forth.

'You must have a career,' 'you must have only X number of kids' or 'sexual empowerment = having the most sexual partners' is a straw representation of second wave feminism from a generation ago, not even part of the modern dialogue. Modern feminism is all about choice. Be in a place or society that lets you CHOOSE either to put career first or kids first, to have one, two, many or no kids, to have one, two, many or no sexual partners etc. In third and forth wave feminism, living a religious fundamentalist life isn't bad on its own (heck agrarian utopianism is a staple of second wave), it's forcing others to, or using that place of religious fundamentalist to berate, abuse, etc people who don't or can't conform such as LGBT kids born into religious fundamentalist communities which more often than not ARE abused by it.

 

[Rival]

'You must have a career,' 'you must have only X number of kids' or 'sexual empowerment = having the most sexual partners' is a straw representation of second wave feminism from a generation ago, not even part of the modern dialogue. Modern feminism is all about choice. Be in a place or society that lets you CHOOSE either to put career first or kids first, to have one, two, many or no kids, to have one, two, many or no sexual partners etc. In third and forth wave feminism, living a religious fundamentalist life isn't bad on its own (heck agrarian utopianism is a staple of second wave), it's forcing others to, or using that place of religious fundamentalist to berate, abuse, etc people who don't or can't conform such as LGBT kids born into religious fundamentalist communities which more often than not ARE abused by it.

I was just repeating what I see around me, the views that people hold.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I was just repeating what I see around me, the views that people hold.

Sounds more like a conservative spin on the views people hold than the people who actually hold them. Now I'm not in the UK and it's possible your area has more second wave feminists than here, but again, that's mostly a straw version of second wave too.
Heck, mostly I see people saying 'you have too many children' who are *conservatives* with their 'don't live beyond your means' view.

 

[Rival]

Sounds more like a conservative spin on the views people hold than the people who actually hold them. Now I'm not in the UK and it's possible your area has more second wave feminists than here, but again, that's mostly a straw version of second wave too.
Heck, mostly I see people saying 'you have too many children' who are *conservatives* with their 'don't live beyond your means' view.

Over here, 1 child is too many. I'm afraid to tell my family I want to have children. I was derided for going to work at a school. This view is certainly prevalent here, as well as the idea that marriage is basically dead.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Over here, 1 child is too many. I'm afraid to tell my family I want to have children. I was derided for going to work at a school. This view is certainly prevalent here, as well as the idea that marriage is basically dead.

Over here telling people you don't want to have children is more likely to get you 'it's the only way you become an adult, it's the ultimate purpose of women, you'll change your mind when you're older, you're making a mistake' blahblahblah. Getting married as an irreligious atheist is still quite prevalent, it's just done for legal reasons (merging wealth and decision making power as a unit, before government). And the ceremony is a celebration of the union (not celebration of commitment to eachother, which ideally comes way before the marriage instead of as a result of the marriage)

 

[PureX]

I think the problem here is that those "tight-knit religiously oriented" communities tend not to buy lots of useless overpriced crap on credit and then work themselves to death for their wealthy corporate overlords trying to pay for it all. Shame on them for being so self-contained, and "unamerican"! Shame on them for not having to have everything everyone else has to have, or to do what everyone else has to do! Who do they think they are singing and praying instead of watching sit-coms and endless commercials on the TV telling them what to buy next? And having family picnics instead of wild parties where they can practice excess? America is about CONSUMPTION! Not "God". Money, money, money, .... gotta keep that money flowing ... (into the pockets of the rich). Get your heads out of those Bibles and your a$$es down to the WalMart where you belong!

 

[Rival]

I think the problem here is that those "tight-knit religiously oriented" communities tend not to buy lots of useless overpriced crap on credit and then work themselves to death for their wealthy corporate overlords trying to pay for it all. Shame on them for being so self-contained, and "unamerican"! Shame on them for not having to have everything everyone else has to have, or to do what everyone else has to do! Who do they think they are singing and praying instead of watching sit-coms and endless commercials on the TV telling them what to buy next? And having family picnics instead of wild parties where they can practice excess? America is about CONSUMPTION! Not "God". Money, money, money, .... gotta keep that money flowing ... (into the pockets of the rich). Get your heads out of those Bibles and your a$$es down to the WalMart where you belong!

Well I'm in Great Britain but you have a definite point.

 

[shmogie]

To say that the centuries long norm, which is not news, is news and that to focus on changes (what is "new") is an attack on the old norm is a peculiar way to twist things IMO.

One only need read the newspapers to learn the actual reality of what I posted.

We have the right to live, believe and act within the framework of our faith.

Changes are irrelevant to us until it impinges upon our rights found in the first amendment of the bill of rights.

To be clear, these rights apply to all religions in the US.

The OP´s point, I believe, applies to the constant attempts by the new social order adherents to chip away at the credibility of people of faith, and their belief systems, to ultimately discredit them.

How many times have reports been made of Christian aid organizations freely spend many millions of dollars in natural disasters ?

How about huge numbers of people in Africa who would starve to death without Christian aid in clean water, food, shelter and medicine. Wonderful stories, the new social order couldn´t care less.

The UN recently declared that Christians are now the most persecuted religious group in the world. Not in the US, but in the middle east, Africa, China, etc. Many thousands have been slaughtered, apparently of no value to the new social order advocates, but they are my brothers and sisters in faith.

I could go on, but you get the point.

So while the news channels hyperventilate over some bogus subpoena from Congress, and continually search for stories to cast bad light on people of faith, frankly, usually Christians, the good deeds are ignored, the slaughter is ignored, the rapes, murders and kidnapping of all the women from entire villages, they report on Trump saying something stupid about one of the dumbest political hacks in the country Nadler, as if it is really important,

Rant over.

 

[columbus]

I was just repeating what I see around me, the views that people hold.

You should probably get out more.
Tom

 

[PureX]

So while the news channels hyperventilate over some bogus subpoena from Congress, and continually search for stories to cast bad light on people of faith, frankly, usually Christians, the good deeds are ignored, the slaughter is ignored, the rapes, murders and kidnapping of all the women from entire villages, they report on Trump saying something stupid about one of the dumbest political hacks in the country Nadler, as if it is really important,

Rant over.

America is The Superstore. Murder, rape, disease, death, good deeds, bad deeds, none of that stuff matters, now. All that matters are the sales numbers. The profit margins. How much money are the big boys pulling in, today? (And of course all those little minions riding their coattails ... and kissing their rings.)

 

[crossfire]

Over here, 1 child is too many. I'm afraid to tell my family I want to have children. I was derided for going to work at a school. This view is certainly prevalent here, as well as the idea that marriage is basically dead.

Then get married and have kids. Going against your family wishes/tribal tradition is not a "sin." Tell them that this is what you want to do. Will your family disown you if you get married and have kids? Probably not.

Looking at your own situation of wanting to go against the cultural grain might give you a bit of an idea about others who want to go against their upbringing and cultural grain. (Except the consequences of their doing so might be a bit more harsh than what you might face from your family.)

 

[Rival]

Then get married and have kids. Going against your family wishes/tribal tradition is not a "sin." Tell them that this is what you want to do. Will your family disown you if you get married and have kids? Probably not.

Looking at your own situation of wanting to go against the cultural grain might give you a bit of an idea about others who want to go agaist their uprbringing and cultural grain. (Except the consequences of their doing so might be a bit more harsh than what you might face from your family.)

This has nothing to do with religion though. No-one is vilifying my culture; certainly not me. They have their views, I have mine. This is not a problem.

 

[crossfire]

This has nothing to do with religion though. No-one is vilifying my culture; certainly not me. They have their views, I have mine. This is not a problem.

If you are afraid to tell your family, like you said you were, then it is a problem.

 

[Rival]

If you are afraid to tell your family, like you said you were, then it is a problem.

Perhaps I used the wrong word. I mean, it is not something I would like to discuss with them because it would cause a needless argument, which I avoid with family at pretty much all costs. If, however, I came home pregnant, then the argument would be over because there would be a bigger thing to concentrate on now. There are things I refuse to discuss with people and instead just get on doing them, then it is too late to complain.

 

[crossfire]

This has nothing to do with religion though. No-one is vilifying my culture; certainly not me. They have their views, I have mine. This is not a problem.

I'm seeing some vilification of your culture going on in this very thread.

 

[QuestioningMind]

This is beginning to irk me. There seems to be this trend for news reporters to latch to the stories of random people who leave their religions. I've not noticed the same for the other way. It's always couched in this sort of language:

'How I escaped the Ultra Orthodox Life.'

'How I Freed Myself From The Church.'

'My Life After Wahabism.'

It goes on and on. Has it never occurred to these journalists that some people are, oh I don't know, happy in their fundamentalist religious communes? Where are all the 'I found happiness in the Charedi community' stories? I notice it's all good when someone's religious views match current social values, when people 'escape into modernity'. G-d forbid a woman could be happy with 8 kids and a husband who prays every day, right? She'll only be happy when she realises how oppressed she is and frees herself, goes to university and becomes an engineer, then someone can write an editorial all about how her childhood was terrible and all she ever knew was making babies (eventually, because she didn't know that sex existed before this, amirite?).


I put to you, the damned foolish opinion, that some people are happy in tight-knit, traditionalist religious communities and they don't need your enlightenment.

First off, you don't seem to understand what the news media does. The news media WILL report when a dog bites a man. But it's not likely to report all of the times a dog has joyously wagged its tail at a man. That's because in our society dogs are generally seen as friendly and helpful - you know, man's best friend - so dogs acting the way we've been taught to believe dogs should behave is not considered news. It's only when they behave aggressively and bite people that it becomes newsworthy.

The same holds true for religions. In our society religion is touted as a place for community, where you can find happiness and belonging. So what's newsworthy about people who claim to have found happiness, community, and a sense of belonging in their religion? Nothing. It's when people who are members of a religion that's supposed to provide them with happiness, community, and a sense of belonging who end of claiming that it did the exact opposite for them that the news media feels that it's worthy of reporting.

I put to you, the damned foolish opinion, that some people are happy in tight-knit, traditionalist religious communities and they don't need your enlightenment.

That's great! But it doesn't change the reality that these numerous news stories point out... there are plenty of people who AREN'T happy in such communities, who feel manipulated and controlled in such communities and feel that their association with them has been detrimental to their happiness.

 

[charlie sc]

This is beginning to irk me. There seems to be this trend for news reporters to latch to the stories of random people who leave their religions. I've not noticed the same for the other way. It's always couched in this sort of language:

Uhhhhhh. Does it, "irk," you when religious sites/media write articles or show glowing testimony of random/famous converts to their religion?

 

[Rival]

Uhhhhhh. Does it, "irk," you when religious sites/media write articles or show glowing testimony of random/famous converts to their religion?

Yes, because I'm not really sure why I should care. Doubly so about celebrities.