Why I Left ---

[charlie sc]

Yes, because I'm not really sure why I should care. Doubly so about celebrities.

Since you're worried about both, I'm glad you're being so unbiased in this thread...

 

[QuestioningMind]

No, you have misunderstood. I have a problem with how it's worded most of the time. Most of the articles and videos I watch seem to paint these communities as backwards, vile, woman hating places and the secular world as some kind of freedom utopia. I have a problem with how they paint fundamentalist religious communities.


What about all the wedding stories? All the 'look at what so-and-so wore to such-and-such event' stories? They're not exactly thrilling reads either. I'm just asking that, if you're going to write articles about people who leave, why not flip the coin for a change?


No, I'm blaming the journalists who write these pieces for making out these communities are like lockdown prisons.


No, I'm saying I wish news treatment would not paint religious communities as antithetical to the modern world and making the general public think that religious fundamentalists are all nutcases.

No, you have misunderstood. I have a problem with how it's worded most of the time. Most of the articles and videos I watch seem to paint these communities as backwards, vile, woman hating places and the secular world as some kind of freedom utopia. I have a problem with how they paint fundamentalist religious communities.

That's because they are telling the story of people from those communities who came to the conclusion that they are backwards, vile, woman hating places. The picture that theses stories paint are based upon the claimed experiences from people in the community. Are you suggesting that journalists should ignore such claims?

What about all the wedding stories? All the 'look at what so-and-so wore to such-and-such event' stories? They're not exactly thrilling reads either. I'm just asking that, if you're going to write articles about people who leave, why not flip the coin for a change?

Journalists write stories that the public is willing to read. Clearly there is a fairly large segment of the population that's obsessed with fashion and celebrities... thus all of the news stories about them. IF people were interested in reading about how happy and content people are in there current religions THEN you would see a proportional number of news stories on the subject. It's the lack of interest by the general population in such stories that explains the lack of such stories.

No, I'm blaming the journalists who write these pieces for making out these communities are like lockdown prisons.

Again, the journalists are simply reporting what they've been told by people who have actually lived in the communities. It's not the journalists who are making the communities to be like l;ock down prisons... it's the stories that the former members of these communities are relating that convey what these communities are like. And again, are you suggesting that journalists be forced to ignore such stories?

 

[Dawnofhope]

This is beginning to irk me. There seems to be this trend for news reporters to latch to the stories of random people who leave their religions. I've not noticed the same for the other way. It's always couched in this sort of language:

'How I escaped the Ultra Orthodox Life.'

'How I Freed Myself From The Church.'

'My Life After Wahabism.'

It goes on and on. Has it never occurred to these journalists that some people are, oh I don't know, happy in their fundamentalist religious communes? Where are all the 'I found happiness in the Charedi community' stories? I notice it's all good when someone's religious views match current social values, when people 'escape into modernity'. G-d forbid a woman could be happy with 8 kids and a husband who prays every day, right? She'll only be happy when she realises how oppressed she is and frees herself, goes to university and becomes an engineer, then someone can write an editorial all about how her childhood was terrible and all she ever knew was making babies (eventually, because she didn't know that sex existed before this, amirite?).

I put to you, the damned foolish opinion, that some people are happy in tight-knit, traditionalist religious communities and they don't need your enlightenment.

There is a definite media bias with a narrative that portrays religion negatively. On the other hand there are negative experiences that are a reality for many. The balance needs to shift. The extremely negative portrayal of Islam was undoubtedly a factor with the Christchurch massacre in New Zealand.

 

[LuisDantas]

A few people have made the point better than me, I think. Is it so difficult for some people to write about a perspective different than their own and see the value in a different kind of life, without letting their disdain for it come in? I realise that many humans are drawn to write about and read things that reflect their own view, and perhaps by definition such communities are outside of their reading/writing margin, but I would like to see a change in how such communities are viewed and reported on without such words as 'escape', 'free' and other such slanted terms.

The current general trends are not too friendly towards diversity of perspectives. To some extent, I think, due to political frustration.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's not news when the dog bites a person, but when a person bites a dog. We, as a society, assume and expect people are happy in religion and miserable without. It becomes newsworthy, and great for the advancement of non-theists, when those who ha e left religion are doing just fine.

 

[Quagmire]

I think the problem here is that those "tight-knit religiously oriented" communities tend not to buy lots of useless overpriced crap on credit and then work themselves to death for their wealthy corporate overlords trying to pay for it all. Shame on them for being so self-contained, and "unamerican"! Shame on them for not having to have everything everyone else has to have, or to do what everyone else has to do! Who do they think they are singing and praying instead of watching sit-coms and endless commercials on the TV telling them what to buy next? And having family picnics instead of wild parties where they can practice excess? America is about CONSUMPTION! Not "God". Money, money, money, .... gotta keep that money flowing ... (into the pockets of the rich). Get your heads out of those Bibles and your a$$es down to the WalMart where you belong!

Great post, PureX. I agree: Consumerism is the new orthodoxy, and it's no more benevolent than any of it's predecessors.

 

[Vinayaka]

The press makes decisions based on what sells, not on any particular value or religious system. It's an industry, selling advertising, not giving news. Sensationalism sells.

 

[Erebus]

Over here, 1 child is too many. I'm afraid to tell my family I want to have children. I was derided for going to work at a school. This view is certainly prevalent here, as well as the idea that marriage is basically dead.

Hmm, that certainly hasn't been my experience. If anything, 1-2 children seems to be expected (though I'll grant there's certainly a stigma against having more than that) to the extent that my own stance of never wanting children gets called immature. It's apparently a phase I'll grow out of. A phase that seems to have lasted quite a bit longer than people expected!
Now I'm not saying you're wrong exactly, I can certainly believe you've had the opposite experience. Just pointing out that it's not universal.

Anyway, back on topic. I've seen the odd story about people who came out of what were essentially cults but I'd say that's very different to a conservative, religious setting. They certainly can hold certain conservative values but they're just as likely to be hippies. The thing they have in common is systematic abuse and I'd argue that there's a real benefit to be had in exposing what can happen in those groups.

As for vilifying conservative, religious groups in general ... Islam seems to be the main punching bag at the moment. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is politically motivated on the whole. If a group is willing to live and let live, as the majority of British Muslims seem content with, then I see no need for animosity. Even so, people have a vested interest in protecting their own choices and so when a group looks to set a standard for everybody else, some degree of conflict is inevitable. This is true regardless of where you stand on the political/religious spectrum and I see plenty of headlines decrying the progressive/secular crowd too.

That's human nature in a nutshell really!

 

[Quintessence]

A few people have made the point better than me, I think. Is it so difficult for some people to write about a perspective different than their own and see the value in a different kind of life, without letting their disdain for it come in? I realise that many humans are drawn to write about and read things that reflect their own view, and perhaps by definition such communities are outside of their reading/writing margin, but I would like to see a change in how such communities are viewed and reported on without such words as 'escape', 'free' and other such slanted terms.

If those terms accurately represent how the person feels about it, is it still slanted? Wouldn't changing the terms to be something else be slanted?

That said, unless the article was written by the convert themselves, we can't know what terms they would or wouldn't use to describe their experiences. Ideally, a journalist will write the article to represent the person they are telling the story about. But it doesn't always happen.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think the problem here is that those "tight-knit religiously oriented" communities tend not to buy lots of useless overpriced crap on credit and then work themselves to death for their wealthy corporate overlords trying to pay for it all. Shame on them for being so self-contained, and "unamerican"! Shame on them for not having to have everything everyone else has to have, or to do what everyone else has to do! Who do they think they are singing and praying instead of watching sit-coms and endless commercials on the TV telling them what to buy next? And having family picnics instead of wild parties where they can practice excess? America is about CONSUMPTION! Not "God". Money, money, money, .... gotta keep that money flowing ... (into the pockets of the rich). Get your heads out of those Bibles and your a$$es down to the WalMart where you belong!

No, they gave us a mentality that settles for a crappy physical world because they are promised a better world after they die. It was fear of lifting a finger against " gods chose to rule" and accepting the medieval living conditions. Today many don't give a damn about climate change because ita gods will anyways and he's going to destroy the world with fire. They gave the world a disgusting sense of a defeatist mentality.
And, FYI, Christians themselves are caught up into consumerism as anyone else. This is another area they do not get a free pass or moral high ground just for being Christian. And dont forget lots of Christians support unfettered capitalism as godly and biblically approved.

 

[PureX]

Great post, PureX. I agree: Consumerism is the new orthodoxy, and it's no more benevolent than any of it's predecessors.

Too many of us just don't understand that "the media" is a gigantic advertising agency. And that if we're seeing lots of negative media attention aimed at conservative religious groups (and I am not convinced that we are) it has next to nothing to do with the validity of the content itself, and everything to do with the advertiser's consumer culture agenda being infringed upon, somehow, by those groups.

 

[Muffled]

This is beginning to irk me. There seems to be this trend for news reporters to latch to the stories of random people who leave their religions. I've not noticed the same for the other way. It's always couched in this sort of language:

'How I escaped the Ultra Orthodox Life.'

'How I Freed Myself From The Church.'

'My Life After Wahabism.'

It goes on and on. Has it never occurred to these journalists that some people are, oh I don't know, happy in their fundamentalist religious communes? Where are all the 'I found happiness in the Charedi community' stories? I notice it's all good when someone's religious views match current social values, when people 'escape into modernity'. G-d forbid a woman could be happy with 8 kids and a husband who prays every day, right? She'll only be happy when she realises how oppressed she is and frees herself, goes to university and becomes an engineer, then someone can write an editorial all about how her childhood was terrible and all she ever knew was making babies (eventually, because she didn't know that sex existed before this, amirite?).

I put to you, the damned foolish opinion, that some people are happy in tight-knit, traditionalist religious communities and they don't need your enlightenment.

I believe the lobster is happy in his pool of water until the heat rises and he is boiled to death. Everyone needs enlightenment but some think that is what their darkness is.

 

[Muffled]

That's silly.
Girls don't become engineers.
(Too much social awareness & skill.)

My daughter studied engineering and so did I but neither of us wee good at it. Expecting people to be good at everything is unrealistic. Some women are good at having babies and others are not.

 

[Muffled]

As opposed to what? How conservative religionists describe secularism and the secular style of living? How we're all hell bound sinners who hate God?
Tom

I believe we do have those conversion stories of how the person is fed up with his sin and decides he needs a savior. Then he leads a wholesome new life.

 

[Rival]

My daughter studied engineering and so did I but neither of us wee good at it. Expecting people to be good at everything is unrealistic. Some women are good at having babies and others are not.

You missed the sarcasm here.

 

[columbus]

I believe we do have those conversion stories of how the person is fed up with his sin and decides he needs a savior. Then he leads a wholesome new life.

I know this.
I respect it.
It has everything to do with the human community.

But I also know that it has nothing to do with Christianity, much less god. Muslims are very good at it around here. Their prison ministries are quite inspiring.
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

My daughter studied engineering and so did I but neither of us wee good at it. Expecting people to be good at everything is unrealistic. Some women are good at having babies and others are not.

I'm happy to leave pregnancy to the wimins.
It looks painful & icky.

Did either of you enjoy engineering?
I ask because I find that liking it is absolutely necessary.
If one doesn't enjoy it, the drudgery would be mind numbing.