Why I think there is one right religion

[Sabour]

Yes, I know that you didn't mean to do it, but do you understand how you did it?

You've come to a place full of religious seekers, serious people who have spent their lives searching for God or Truth or whatever.

And you tell us that if we will only be honest, we will discover the same God as you have discovered.

So you say we are not honest. We are not open to the Truth.

It's pretty insulting, especially when you consider that most of us can show you things about God and Truth which haven't even occurred to you yet.

Well as far as I remember I said this is the first step. I didn't say you were not honest.

Don't take it as a challenge, but I am interested if you tell me about the things you mentioned

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Don't take it as a challenge, but I am interested if you tell me about the things you mentioned

I am most happy when I am challenged, and I'll be glad to engage you on the matter of God.

But you're speaking to several people at once. Maybe we can talk a little later.

 

[Sabour]

I am most happy when I am challenged, and I'll be glad to engage you on the matter of God.

But you're speaking to several people at once. Maybe we can talk a little later.

Okay

I am looking forward to it.

And I have to apology for all not only for you. I guess I have been arrogant during discussion.

Sorry Guys.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Okay

I am looking forward to it.

And I have to apology for all not only for you. I guess I have been arrogant during discussion.

Sorry Guys.

You're doing fine for a new guy. And I am impressed by your English. It's clear that you aren't a native speaker, but you are doing very well with it.

 

[Sabour]

You're doing fine for a new guy. And I am impressed by your English. It's clear that you aren't a native speaker, but you are doing very well with it.

Well you got that right. And frankly I feel that I am lost. When I came here I thought I would basically see Christians,Jews Hindus and little atheists. How wrong I were!

I first came here to know why people think Quraan is not the word of God. I wanted also to take a look to the other world. And MANNN I was surprised. But I think I got carried away in the process.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Well you got that right.

I doubt that most of the members have even noticed that you are a non-native speaker. The errors you make are so small.

And I have to apology for all, not only for you....

And I have to apologize to all, not only to you....

You must have lived around English speakers? Or did you learn to use English so well mostly from TV and movies?

I'm asking these questions, by the way, because I have an interest in language and how it's acquired. I used to study that stuff.

And frankly I feel that I am lost. When I came here I thought I would basically see Christians,Jews Hindus and little atheists. How wrong I were!

I would guess that most of the atheists here were once deeply religious. I was born into a fundamentalist Christian family.

I first came here to know why people think Quraan is not the word of God. I wanted also to take a look to the other world. And MANNN I was surprised. But I think I got carried away in the process.

I'll be glad to discuss my view of the Quran with you. Is that what you want?

 

[Sabour]

I doubt that most of the members have even noticed that you are a non-native speaker. The errors you make are so small.

And I have to apology for all, not only for you....

And I have to apologize to all, not only to you....

You must have lived around English speakers? Or did you learn to use English so well mostly from TV and movies?

I'm asking these questions, by the way, because I have an interest in language and how it's acquired. I used to study that stuff.



I would guess that most of the atheists here were once deeply religious. I was born into a fundamentalist Christian family.



I'll be glad to discuss my view of the Quran with you. Is that what you want?

It was because of my school because even in most science classes, arabic was not allowed. In addition now I am living in Cyprus and attending an English University. So I have to keep speaking English all the time.

Anyways how did you notice I am not a native speaker?

I would like to discuss that if you don't mind. But if you don't want we can discuss why you left Christinaity.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

It was because of my school because even in most science classes, arabic was not allowed. In addition now I am living in Cyprus and attending an English University. So I have to keep speaking English all the time.

Anyways how did you notice I am not a native speaker?

It's the small stuff. You speak (write) better than most Americans, but now and again you make 'foreigner' mistakes. Small disagreements in form which an American would never make.

How wrong I were!

No native English speaker would say that. It's so minor as to be unimportant, and it certainly doesn't interefere with your meaning, but it gives you away, at least to anyone who is paying close attention.

If you're interested, I can go through your messages and list other examples.

Cyprus -- what a terrible history it has had. Is there still trouble? I haven't kept up.

I would like to discuss that if you don't mind. But if you don't want we can discuss why you left Christinaity.

I left Christianity at a very young age. I think some people are just born skeptical. It has been hard -- the alienation I've suffered from some family members, but God was more important to me than family, I guess.

Quran: Tell me your main three reasons for seeing it as the Word of God.

 

[Sabour]

It's the small stuff. You speak (write) better than most Americans, but now and again you make 'foreigner' mistakes. Small disagreements in form which an American would never make.

How wrong I were!

No native English speaker would say that. It's so minor as to be unimportant, and it certainly doesn't interefere with your meaning, but it gives you away, at least to anyone who is paying close attention.

If you're interested, I can go through your messages and list other examples.

Cyprus -- what a terrible history it has had. Is there still trouble? I haven't kept up.



I left Christianity at a very young age. I think some people are just born skeptical. It has been hard -- the alienation I've suffered from some family members, but God was more important to me than family, I guess.

Quran: Tell me your main three reasons for seeing it as the Word of God.

Well I see how you caught me lol .... its not that important to go through them.

Well about Cyprus its ok now.... I am not having time to even listen to their situation. But the Dollar value is going down so I guess they are improving ... I guess

First, Quraan tells me everything I want to know about how to live in this world
Second, It answers all the questions I have to ask.
Third it has miracles which prove it as the word of God, mostly the effect it has deep down inside you. In addition to some scientific miracles which could have never been known 1400 years ago

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

First, Quraan tells me everything I want to know about how to live in this world.

That's a good reason, and I can't argue against it.

But you must understand that it doesn't convince anyone outside of Islam. A Christian will say the same thing about his Bible. A Baha'i will say the same about Baha'u'llah's writings, and a Mormon will say the same thing about the Book of Mormon.

You said that you came here wondering why other people don't see the Quran as the Word of God. Well, their own scriptures tell them everything they want to know about how to live in this world. They have no need of the Quran.

Second, It answers all the questions I have to ask.

Ditto. They find the answers in their own scriptures, not in the Quran.

Third it has miracles which prove it as the word of God, mostly the effect it has deep down inside you. In addition to some scientific miracles which could have never been known 1400 years ago

Christians make the same claims about the Bible. Bahai's make the same claims about Baha'u'llah's writings.

Some of them even claim that their prophets could foretell the future.

Are you seeing why other people don't view the Quran as the Word of God? They have their own Word of God.

Me, I don't believe that God would send actual words down to humanity.

 

[Sabour]

That's a good reason, and I can't argue against it.

But you must understand that it doesn't convince anyone outside of Islam. A Christian will say the same thing about his Bible. A Baha'i will say the same about Baha'u'llah's writings, and a Mormon will say the same thing about the Book of Mormon.

Well actually I don't know if they have all the answers. But for instance, since I am familiar with Christianity, I don't think they have an answer how justice applies to people who lived before Jesus peace be upon him came.

Ditto. They find the answers in their own scriptures, not in the Quran.

Okay. That doesn't prove anything.

Christians make the same claims about the Bible. Bahai's make the same claims about Baha'u'llah's writings.

Some of them even claim that their prophets could foretell the future.

Okay you said they make these claims. What happens when we look at these claims?

Are you seeing why other people don't view the Quran as the Word of God? They have their own Word of God.

Well not yet.

Me, I don't believe that God would send actual words down to humanity.

Don't you believe that some of the bible is correct?

 

[YmirGF]

I have often heard that why would our religion be wrong if we believe in God.

On the other hand, why would you pretend that your religion is right JUST because you believe it is. Believing in something does not make it true - outside of your own mind, that is.

Well let me start by saying that every person has a religion. Even the one who says I don't belong to any religion.

It doesn't help an argument to include a ridiculous premise. To make this true you have to water down what having a "religion" is generally accepted to mean and to do that will likely make you appear quite foolish.

Assume that you don't follow any religion, I will ask you four questions

I don't need to assume anything, as I do not follow any religion known to human animals. Get used to it.

If somebody came to kill you, do you think it is okay if you killed him? self defense?

It is never "OK" to kill another. Right and wrong has nothing to do with survival.

Is it okay to have alcohol?

Although I seldom drink, I have no problem with people possessing and drinking alcohol - at any time they so wish. It's their life.

Is it okay to have drugs?

Well duh. Sometimes I take Ibuprofen.

Is it okay to lie for a good reason?

Of course, lying is perfectly acceptable under specific conditions.

Now I can make a thousand question in the list. The set of answers you provide for these questions is your religion. They form your beliefs by which you live your life.

No. These answers are NOT my friggin religion and it doesn't matter how many times you say it, it does not make it so. I'm actually a tiny bit insulted.

Now before you give answers to these questions and adopt them in your life, it is your duty to search and see if God already handed you answers to these questions.

Huh? How dare you adopt such an arrogant position saying it is MY duty to root through the drivel of the world's religions to find answers I am more than capable of arriving at myself. Why on earth would I care what the books of others say to ANY of these questions? Sheesh.

And since religions have major differences, there is only one true religion. Just like 1+1=2 ... You only have once right answer. And let's not forget that there are MAJOR difference between religions in the worshiping aspect. Not only in the do and donts.

In my view it is far more likely that NONE of the religions are "right" or "true". Chew on that one for a bit.

So its our duty to search for this true religion that God gave us, and I firmly believe that God didn't leave each one of us to live by his standards.

Do us a favor and understand that just because you think it is our duty to do such and such, I have no compulsion to do as you say. I do not CARE what the religions of the world have to say on a vast array of topics.

I prefer to think for myself.

 

[Sabour]

Do us a favor and understand that just because you think it is our duty to do such and such, I have no compulsion to do as you say. I do not CARE what the religions of the world have to say on a vast array of topics.

I prefer to think for myself.

Sorry do you see me holding a gun and saying you have to believe in this ?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Well actually I don't know if they have all the answers. But for instance, since I am familiar with Christianity, I don't think they have an answer how justice applies to people who lived before Jesus peace be upon him came.

I don't think they have a good answer for that, either. Nor does Islam or any other religion which is based on scripture.

Okay. That doesn't prove anything.

When you have participated here a very long time, you'll come to realize that nothing ever proves anything.

Think about what the word 'prove' means. It simply means 'convince another person of something.'

Okay you said they make these claims. What happens when we look at these claims?

The Christians always think they win. The Muslims and Hindus and Jews, meanwhile, all think that they have won.

Don't you believe that some of the bible is correct?

I think the Bible is just another book. And all books have some correct things in them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In the verse God is only telling up what they did so we won't do like them.

As for this verse
O you who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violaters of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed.

O you who have been given the book: People who received scripture before

Which we have have revealed is the Quraan

Verifying what you have: It means that the Quraan confirms the injeel and the Torah.

It doesn't say we have to follow what the Torah says.

True. But why God gave a different Law in Torah than in Quran?
Please go back to see what you disagreed about.

Now before we calculate the numbers, it is mentioned in the Quraan that Muhammad peace be upon him is the last prophet

(33:40)
Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.

So since there are no prophets coming, this means that there will be nothing added to the religion until the day of Judgement

Regrdless if Muhammad is the Last Prophet or Not, my point is made. The term of People of Islam was 1000 years, and ended.

And Now with regards to the verses 33:40. The word that is used in the verse which is translated as Last, is indeed 'Khatam'. Khatam was a stone on rings that could be uses to stamp (seal) a document.
But that requires some investigation as what was intended by the Term 'Seal" in Quran.

The Word is "Khatam" in Arabic. Muhammad is called Khatam Al-Nabeen.

In Old times, "Khatam" was a stone on rings that was used either as 'Ornament" or as "Stamp" to Seal a document.

So, it is merely an interpretation that Seal means 'Last' or 'End'

In fact in Bible it is said:

"... on Jesus, God has set his Seal" John 6:27
(you can see the whole verse, I shortened it for brevity)

It does not mean, That God sealed His revelation and ended that with Jesus.
In this sense, 'Seal' means 'confirm'
One of the Missions of Muhammad was to confirm previous Prophets, hence the term 'Seal of Prophets"
In another sense, Muhammad was the Ornament of Prophets. Like an ornament on a ring, as an analogy.

For example Muhammad called Ali, 'Seal of Believers" ('Khatamul Auliya) that does not mean, He was the last believer.
Aisha, the wife of the Muhammad states;[33]

"Say he is 'seal of prophets' but do not say there is no prophet after him."[34]
​

See here: Khatam an-Nabuwwah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Then after this we come to investigating Hadithes. There are in fact Hadithes when Muhammad said, after Him no prophet comes. But we need to understand what that means within its context.

For example:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number."

The above Hadith says that, after Moses and before Jesus, there came a number of Minor Prophets as a promoter of Religion of Moses. These Prophets were Aaron, Solomon, David,...etc. They did not have a Revelation from God with a New Book and Laws, but they had come to teach Moses Laws and guide Jews. So, the Hadith deals with prophethood within the dispensation of Islam. similar to Prophets within the dispensation of Moses. Muhammad said after Him, in Islam only Khalifs come, not prophets.

That does not mean that the Revelation of God ended, even as God said in Quran:

"O children of Adam, verily apostles from among you shall come unto you, who shall expound my signs unto you: Whosoever therefore shall fear God and amend, there shall come no fear on them, neither shall they be grieved."
al-A`raf 7:35



"And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of God be exhausted (in the writing): for God is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom."
Luqman 31:27


Obviously the above shows the Quran is not the final revelation.

 

[Sabour]

I don't think they have a good answer for that, either. Nor does Islam or any other religion which is based on scripture.

I don't want to repeat myself. But when I told you about the prophets all preaching Islam, how did that sound?

When you have participated here a very long time, you'll come to realize that nothing ever proves anything.

Only time will tell that

The Christians always think they win. The Muslims and Hindus and Jews, meanwhile, all think that they have won.

Can I present to you some of these miracles.

I think the Bible is just another book. And all books have some correct things in them.

According to Islam, God inspired Jesus with the verbatim words of the text which were then written by Jesus' hand. Muslims believe that Jesus, who had memorized the revelation, then taught it to all his disciples (al-Hawāriyūn). However the bible we know today is not the same as the injeel because there are many additions by men.

Let me ask you what do you think about this ?

John 16:7-15

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Me, I don't believe that God would send actual words down to humanity.

If you meant it literally than it is not that way. Muhammad peace be upon him received the revelation ( word of God) throughout his life for about 23 years through the angel Gabriel


I think we are doing a surface discussion.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I don't want to repeat myself. But when I told you about the prophets all preaching Islam, how did that sound?

Not convincing. You haven't explained how 49,000 years of mankind were able to learn Mohammad's message.

Even if we go back to Abraham, that's only a tiny fraction of the time that man has lived on earth. So how did God's message get to all those people who didn't have any scripture?

And may I ask if you accept evolution? If so, it raises some interesting questions. Was Neanderthal human? If he could not read, how did he study God's scriptures?

Go back one million years. There is a creature which looks very much like a man, but it's not a man. Was it also able to learn of God?

Can I present to you some of these miracles.

Sure.

According to Islam, God inspired Jesus with the verbatim words of the text which were then written by Jesus' hand. Muslims believe that Jesus, who had memorized the revelation, then taught it to all his disciples (al-Hawāriyūn).

But I don't follow Islam, so I don't believe all of that. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Jesus never even existed as a man. I think he's a character created by the gospel writers.

Let me ask you what do you think about this ?... John 16:7-15

I think that the Gospel of John was written by a man who knew nothing of Jesus and who knew even less about God than I know. I think he made up the dialogue which you have quoted and put it into Jesus' mouth.

If you meant it literally than it is not that way. Muhammad peace be upon him received the revelation ( word of God) throughout his life for about 23 years through the angel Gabriel.

If there really was a Muhammad and if he really believed that he was hearing the voice of God, I'm sorry, but I can only see him as confused.

I think we are doing a surface discussion.

Dig as deep as suits you.

 

[Sabour]

True. But why God gave a different Law in Torah than in Quran?
Please go back to see what you disagreed about.

Where it says in the Quraan the torah today is the same torah revealed?

Regrdless if Muhammad is the Last Prophet or Not, my point is made. The term of People of Islam was 1000 years, and ended.

According to your calculations and wrong numbers. Besides I can't calculate it in the first place.

So do you believe in the whole Quraan or just part of it?

And Now with regards to the verses 33:40. The word that is used in the verse which is translated as Last, is indeed 'Khatam'. Khatam was a stone on rings that could be uses to stamp (seal) a document.
But that requires some investigation as what was intended by the Term 'Seal" in Quran.

The Word is "Khatam" in Arabic. Muhammad is called Khatam Al-Nabeen.

In Old times, "Khatam" was a stone on rings that was used either as 'Ornament" or as "Stamp" to Seal a document.

I will not even entertain that idea as my native language is Arabic.

So, it is merely an interpretation that Seal means 'Last' or 'End'

In fact in Bible it is said:

"... on Jesus, God has set his Seal" John 6:27
(you can see the whole verse, I shortened it for brevity)

It does not mean, That God sealed His revelation and ended that with Jesus.
In this sense, 'Seal' means 'confirm'
One of the Missions of Muhammad was to confirm previous Prophets, hence the term 'Seal of Prophets"
In another sense, Muhammad was the Ornament of Prophets. Like an ornament on a ring, as an analogy.

First, the bible we know today is not the Injeel.

Second this is the verse

Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

Obviously the above shows the Quran is not the final revelation.

Obviously if that were true, it would have been mentioned in the Quraan

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Where it says in the Quraan the torah today is the same torah revealed?

Regardless if Torah today is the same torah as revealed, the Law of Sabbath according to Quran was part of true Torah, was it not? Then please go back and see were you disagreed.

According to your calculations and wrong numbers. Besides I can't calculate it in the first place.

Provide the evidence that the numbers were wrong, and then show how my calculations were wrong to make your point. Otherwise my point holds my friend.

So do you believe in the whole Quraan or just part of it?

All of it.
How about you? do you believe the verses that I quoted regarding future Messengers, and that the Word of God in writing does not end?

I will not even entertain that idea as my native language is Arabic.

Oh, really? So, you believe the translations of Quran are perfectly correct, or do you think you should investigate the Truth independently?

First, the bible we know today is not the Injeel.

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
47. Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 5)

also:

68. Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 5)


I think one of the issues about "corruption" can be fiound in the Qur'anic verses above...The People of the Gospel... Christians..are asked to judge "what Allah hath revealed therein" and holding "fast by the Law, the Gospel"... if the text had been corrupted how can the Christians be asked to judge what had been revealed?

Obviously if that were true, it would have been mentioned in the Quraan

Yes, the verses I provided mentions of future Messengers, and Books.
Is there a verse in Quran that says, it is the last Book?

 

[Sabour]

Yes, the verses I provided mentions of future Messengers, and Books.
Is there a verse in Quran that says, it is the last Book?

(5:3)

Prohibited to you are dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah , and [those animals] killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a head-long fall or by the goring of horns, and those from which a wild animal has eaten, except what you [are able to] slaughter [before its death], and those which are sacrificed on stone altars, and [prohibited is] that you seek decision through divining arrows. That is grave disobedience. This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion.

This ends it