Why I think there is one right religion

[AmbiguousGuy]

:no::no::no:
Lol .... I misunderstood my religion I didn't know I should kill people if they didn't believe in Islam. YmirGF just proved to me that I should.

That's what I thought you meant. But it wasn't clear from your message.

 

[Sabour]

Thanks for your concern, I deleted it anyways

 

[RFForumMember]

The problem is that God is one. That is what I believe.

Lots of people have varying beliefs about God and I think they assume and accept way more information then can rationally be known.

A friend of mine believes in the concept of god but he is not sure if it's a force an entity or something that resides in higher planes of existence. In any event the human mind would not be able to assign attributes or a description to such a foreign and likely unknowable force.

This "god" would not concern itself with the affairs of humans or our planet but rather put into motion everything we know since the big bang. This is not to say there wasn't more before the big bang but it may have existed in a ways not perceivable by us. This god would not be a male or a female or a father in any way we could comprehend.

When he speaks about god he is searching for ways to describe the unknowable where too many people say meh, God is named Yhwh and he exists to maintain heaven and judge dead people so their conscious soul can go hang out in heaven in a state of eternal bliss. Even as we scratch the surface on understanding the depths of consciousness most people think they know far more then I think is possible.

Then again I am not one to concern myself with Gods and the people who follow them as I think they are just people like everyone else. Everyone came to their beliefs via some set of experiences and upbringing but most refuse to realize it is just their belief and their opinion. Everyone has their beliefs and opinions but what if there was a way to figure out something that is more then mere opinion and belief? Some mechanism beyond faith?

Mormons have a holy book (A few?), Christians have a few, muslims have some etc etc... There should be a way to find the truth but you have to understand the truth may be that they were just old stories told by an older superstitious group of people. People much like you or I who without television and the rest of our modern day distractions might have reasoned out similar tales. And the best stories are the ones that get retold over and over. Of course it could also be possible that there is a true religion but you would have to explore each religion and examine them rather than just accepting the first one that sounded right to you or that you were told is right.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Yes. For my argument is that the Quraan is the word of God.

So if the Quran makes a claim which goes against all scientific evidence and against all rational thought, you will believe the Quran, not the science.

OK. But I don't think you can communicate very well with westerners, which seems to be why you have come here. We don't accept the Quran as a magical Book or an infallible Book. Even most of the Christians among us follow science and rationality. Only the fundamentalist Christians, for example, reject evolution. And they are now having to give up their fight against it.

Would you say that your rejection of evolution is common among Muslims? Or is it unusual?

Prove that wrong. In Islam we don't know everything about God. We only know what we are in a need to know. Proving the Quraan wrong will turn me into an atheist.

Do you remember that I told you the definition of 'prove'? Have you thought about it?

'To prove' means 'to convince some specific person of one's view.'

Of course no one can prove (to One-Answer) that the Quran is wrong. Clearly, that would be impossible. But I have definitely proved (to AmbiguousGuy) that the Quran is wrong.

I didn't say that messengers were sent to those who can't read. There is a difference between a prophet and a messenger if you remember

You said that not all prophets bring scriptures. But what is your point? Are you arguing that the 'scriptures' were oral rather than written? And that for the past 50,000 -100,000 years, there has always been a prophet to deliver God's message, living among every isolated village and language group on the whole planet?

That can't be possible. The numbers don't work. You said there have only been a hundred thousand or so prophets.

When God sends us prophets and Messengers, he gives them miracles.

OK. So 'scriptures' magically appeared to every human since the beginning of humans.

Well, why can't the Christians say the same thing? (Actually they do.) You have declared it a problem that their scripture didn't appear until recently, but they can just argue that God magically gave all previous humans the Truth directly.

Why can your God do magic, but the Christian God can't do magic?

Otherwise how would we know they are prophets?

Prophets don't do magic. If they claim to do magic, they are not true prophets. It’s one way we can know that a prophet is false.

As for Muhammad peace be upon him, I repeat he received revelation through an angel. And whenever that happened he called someone to write it down.

I don't think we know much about Muhammad. I'm not even sure that he existed. Certainly not as portrayed by most Muslims.

Another time, not whispering. The only one that God talked was Moses peace be upon him

I seriously doubt that Moses existed.

Why it is called a theory not a fact?

Evolution is both a theory and a fact.

Do you understand what a scientific theory is? Germ Theory, for example? Plate tectonics?

All books agree to that

Most Muslim books agree that Muhammad was illiterate. Just as Christian books agree that Jesus' tomb was empty.

No I didn't. Have you read the Quraan?

Just bits and pieces. But if you've never read Hamlet, how do you know that there has never been a better book than the Quran?

36:77 Does man not consider that We created him from a [mere] sperm-drop - then at once he is a clear adversary?
Was that fact known 1400 years ago ?

I really don't understand. You think that people didn't know about sperm 1400 years ago?

But of course man is not created from a mere sperm drop. If that were true, we wouldn't need women to make babies.

21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?made from water every living thing? when did scientists know that

Probably about 50,000 years ago, I would guess. Especially desert-dwellers. They witnessed every day that water was necessary for life.

78:7 And the mountains as stakes?
When scientists knew that mountains were like stakes?

I think you must misunderstand the English word 'stake'. It usually refers to a stick, a piece of wood, which is hammered into the ground for some reason.

How is a mountain like a stake?

25:53 And it is He who has released [simultaneously] the two seas, one fresh and sweet and one salty and bitter, and He placed between them a barrier and prohibiting partition.

Did we know about the two seas 1400 years ago ?

Really I have no idea what you are talking about. What two seas? Can you name them for me?

21:33 And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming.

Orbits discovery?

Really it's hard for me to believe you are serious. You said that you're in school. Perhaps as you progress through it, you'll come to learn quite a bit about what the ancients knew. Meanwhile, I encourge you to go outside at night and observe the heavens.

He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, within three darknesses. Was that known before.

So you think that Muhammad was the first person to see that babies come out of the wombs of females?

Really, I find your beliefs quite confusing. Extraordinarily confusing.

What are 'three darknesses,' by the way?

He said I don't know how to read. That is the miracle !!

OK, I guess.

 

[9Westy9]

I was going to ask you that. Thanks for your link. I've read that your life doesn't change even if it were proven that God existed? Does this apply to you?

Yeah, pretty much

 

[Monk Of Reason]

For me it is not a possibility. It is the only explanation for my existence.

And you are infallible yes?

 

[Sabour]

So if the Quran makes a claim which goes against all scientific evidence and against all rational thought, you will believe the Quran, not the science.

So if I told you that there existed a book 100 000 years ago named XYZ. You would say that there never existed such a book because you can't say it today? Remember that my argument is that the Quran is the word of God revealed to our prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

OK. But I don't think you can communicate very well with westerners, which seems to be why you have come here. We don't accept the Quran as a magical Book or an infallible Book. Even most of the Christians among us follow science and rationality. Only the fundamentalist Christians, for example, reject evolution. And they are now having to give up their fight against it.

For the evolution part, I told there is no proof. It is just a theory, many scientists don't believe in it too. There is no evidence for a change in species.

Would you say that your rejection of evolution is common among Muslims? Or is it unusual?

That doesn't really matter to you now, as we believe that the Quraan is the word of God so let's not discuss that.

You said that not all prophets bring scriptures. But what is your point? Are you arguing that the 'scriptures' were oral rather than written? And that for the past 50,000 -100,000 years, there has always been a prophet to deliver God's message, living among every isolated village and language group on the whole planet?

You said How were those people able to use those scriptures, considering that none of them could read?

That was my point. Since they can't read, most probably they had no scripture

That can't be possible. The numbers don't work. You said there have only been a hundred thousand or so prophets.

Some Ages of the 25 prophets mentioned in Quraan
The Age of Prophet Adam Alaihi Salaam is:
Nine Hundred and thirty (930) years
The Prophet Noah-Nooh Alaihi Salaam is also called Prophet Nuh and his Age is:
Nine-hundred and fifty (950) years
The Age of Prophet Shoaib Alaihi Salaam is:
Eight-hundred and eighty-two (882) years
The Age of Prophet Saleh - Saaleh Alaihi Salaam is:
Five-hundred and eighty-six (586) years
The Age of Prophet Idris - Idrees Alaihi Salaam is:
Three-hundred and fifty-six (356) years
The Age of Prophet Hud Alaihi Salaam is:
Two-hundred and sixy-five (265) years

OK. So 'scriptures' magically appeared to every human since the beginning of humans.

For Muhammad peace be upon him, it was revealed for about 23 years. I don't know about the rest

Well, why can't the Christians say the same thing? (Actually they do.) You have declared it a problem that their scripture didn't appear until recently, but they can just argue that God magically gave all previous humans the Truth directly.

Yeah than you go to read their book and find contradictions and find this Genesis 19:30-38

Why can your God do magic, but the Christian God can't do magic?

It is not magic it is miracles. And Injil was revealed to Jesus peace be upon him but God didn't preserve it because it was meant for that age only.

Prophets don't do magic. If they claim to do magic, they are not true prophets. It’s one way we can know that a prophet is false.

Miracles

Evolution is both a theory and a fact.

No. Adaptation maybe but change from one species to another, there is not a single proof. I think if they had a proof it would have became "evolution fact"

Do you understand what a scientific theory is? Germ Theory, for example? Plate tectonics?

There is a difference between a theory which is backed up by testing and verified by discoveries, and a theory put just to meet what people think is true.

Most Muslim books agree that Muhammad was illiterate. Just as Christian books agree that Jesus' tomb was empty.

Non muslims too. I mean they attack him but this fact.

Just bits and pieces. But if you've never read Hamlet, how do you know that there has never been a better book than the Quran?

Let's drop that because this is derived from the proof the Quraan is the word of God.

I really don't understand. You think that people didn't know about sperm 1400 years ago?

You think they did ? Please verify.

But of course man is not created from a mere sperm drop. If that were true, we wouldn't need women to make babies.

Where did you get the idea that sperm is all that is needed ?

36:77 Does man not consider that We created him from a [mere] sperm-drop - then at once he is a clear adversary?

mere doesn't mean only,, if you go back to Arabic you will not even see this word anywhere.

Probably about 50,000 years ago, I would guess. Especially desert-dwellers. They witnessed every day that water was necessary for life.

made from water every living thing? This is an explicit statement
The word used in arabic is جعلنا which means made

I think you must misunderstand the English word 'stake'. It usually refers to a stick, a piece of wood, which is hammered into the ground for some reason.

How is a mountain like a stake?

Scientists confirm that mountains have below them roots that extend deep into the earth's surface and stabilize the earth's crust. The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains, having deep roots and being stabilizers for the earth, has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960’s. These roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground. So the most suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word "peg", like the Qur'an describes it.

Really I have no idea what you are talking about. What two seas? Can you name them for me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go3c2Abl3XA

Really it's hard for me to believe you are serious. You said that you're in school. Perhaps as you progress through it, you'll come to learn quite a bit about what the ancients knew. Meanwhile, I encourge you to go outside at night and observe the heavens.

Thank you for the advice

So you think that Muhammad was the first person to see that babies come out of the wombs of females?

Really, I find your beliefs quite confusing. Extraordinarily confusing.

What are 'three darknesses,' by the way?

Professor Keith Moore one of the most famous embryology scientists in the world says: the embryo moves from one developing stage to another inside three veils that were mentioned in the holy Quran as God says: (in three veils of darkness): the three veils of darkness may refer to: 1-The anterior abdominal wall, 2-The uterine wall, 3-The amniochorionic membrane.

It has been proven scientifically that the development of the fetus in the mother's abdomen passes through three veils of darkness which are: the first darkness: is the darkness of the anterior abdominal wall, the second darkness: is the darkness of the uterine wall, the third darkness: is the darkness of the placenta and its membranes.

God be he exalted says: (He creates you in the wombs of your mothers: creation after creation in three veils of darkness. Such is Allah your Lord. His is the kingdom. La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). How then are you turned away?) [Surat Az-Zumar, verse: 6]. The miracle in the previous Quranic verse is the indication of the holy Quran to the process of creating the fetus inside the mother's abdomen as it passes through three veils of darkness and these hidden processes weren't known by anybody at the time of revelation of Quran and that testifies to the miraculous nature of the holy Quran.

OK, I guess.

Let me restate it. Quraan was revealed to Muhammad peace be upon him when he was illiterate ... That was the miracle

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

So if I told you that there existed a book 100 000 years ago named XYZ. You would say that there never existed such a book because you can't say it today?

I would say that since there is no evidence of such a book, then there is no reason to believe that such a book actually existed.

Remember that my argument is that the Quran is the word of God revealed to our prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

Yes, and if you'll forgive me for saying so, I think it's your belief in the Quran which is causing most of your confusions. Your literal belief in it. Sometimes a fundamentalist Christian will declare: The Bible says it. I believe it. And that settles it.

Those Christians are usually the most confused people I've ever met.

For the evolution part, I told there is no proof. It is just a theory, many scientists don't believe in it too. There is no evidence for a change in species.

You're mistaken. But I think I'm going to let you speak with others here for awhile.

Thanks for the exchange, and good luck with your studies and your debates.

 

[Sabour]

And you are infallible yes?

NOoooo0o0

 

[Sabour]

Lots of people have varying beliefs about God and I think they assume and accept way more information then can rationally be known.

A friend of mine believes in the concept of god but he is not sure if it's a force an entity or something that resides in higher planes of existence. In any event the human mind would not be able to assign attributes or a description to such a foreign and likely unknowable force.

This "god" would not concern itself with the affairs of humans or our planet but rather put into motion everything we know since the big bang. This is not to say there wasn't more before the big bang but it may have existed in a ways not perceivable by us. This god would not be a male or a female or a father in any way we could comprehend.

When he speaks about god he is searching for ways to describe the unknowable where too many people say meh, God is named Yhwh and he exists to maintain heaven and judge dead people so their conscious soul can go hang out in heaven in a state of eternal bliss. Even as we scratch the surface on understanding the depths of consciousness most people think they know far more then I think is possible.

Then again I am not one to concern myself with Gods and the people who follow them as I think they are just people like everyone else. Everyone came to their beliefs via some set of experiences and upbringing but most refuse to realize it is just their belief and their opinion. Everyone has their beliefs and opinions but what if there was a way to figure out something that is more then mere opinion and belief? Some mechanism beyond faith?

Mormons have a holy book (A few?), Christians have a few, muslims have some etc etc... There should be a way to find the truth but you have to understand the truth may be that they were just old stories told by an older superstitious group of people. People much like you or I who without television and the rest of our modern day distractions might have reasoned out similar tales. And the best stories are the ones that get retold over and over. Of course it could also be possible that there is a true religion but you would have to explore each religion and examine them rather than just accepting the first one that sounded right to you or that you were told is right.

I agree with the last part

 

[Sabour]

I would say that since there is no evidence of such a book, then there is no reason to believe that such a book actually existed.



Yes, and if you'll forgive me for saying so, I think it's your belief in the Quran which is causing most of your confusions. Your literal belief in it. Sometimes a fundamentalist Christian will declare: The Bible says it. I believe it. And that settles it.

Those Christians are usually the most confused people I've ever met.



You're mistaken. But I think I'm going to let you speak with others here for awhile.

Thanks for the exchange, and good luck with your studies and your debates.

What about the verses?

 

[Ouroboros]

Well let me start by saying that every person has a religion. Even the one who says I don't belong to any religion.

What's your definition of "religion"?

Assume that you don't follow any religion, I will ask you four questions

If somebody came to kill you, do you think it is okay if you killed him? self defense?

Is it okay to have alcohol?

Is it okay to have drugs?

Is it okay to lie for a good reason?

All those questions belong to ethics and moral reasoning. Many religions include mores and values that create the foundation for morality, but religion is not the same as moral code.

Aristotle talked a lot about morality and ethics. Which religion did he belong to?

Now I can make a thousand question in the list. The set of answers you provide for these questions is your religion. They form your beliefs by which you live your life.

I don't see those things being the foundation for a religion. Religion is more about practices and traditions involving a belief in a God or Gods.

Now before you give answers to these questions and adopt them in your life, it is your duty to search and see if God already handed you answers to these questions.

He handed them through fallible people who used their special connection with God for ulterior motives. I can't say for sure that we can trust those "prophets".

And since religions have major differences, there is only one true religion. Just like 1+1=2 ... You only have once right answer. And let's not forget that there are MAJOR difference between religions in the worshiping aspect. Not only in the do and donts.

Interesting that you a relating to math. Newton and Liebniz invented calculus about the same time. They invented two different systems to do it. Today you learn both in calculus class because both are useful in different ways. Newton notation is the one with prime, seconds, etc on functions, while Liebniz was the dy/dx one. (If I recall correctly). Both are true. Both are useful. But they are different.

Ergo, sometimes truths can be described in different ways, just as religion can. There doesn't have to be just one truth to describe the transcendental things.

So its our duty to search for this true religion that God gave us, and I firmly believe that God didn't leave each one of us to live by his standards.

And I belief I found the true religion: no religion. Come and join me in truth!

 

[Ouroboros]

Sorry but I think we are all living in the same world... so yes one true shoe size. Religion is men searching for God. Not God searching for what fits us

Use God and religion to explain the truths about imaginary numbers. You like math, 1+1=2, so please provide the one and only truth about i.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

What about the verses?

I don't think I can address the verses without offending you.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

NOoooo0o0

Then what evidence do you have to support your "god theory'?

 

[Sabour]

What's your definition of "religion"?

For me religion is beliefs and practices. If you don't believe in God, than this is still a belief.

All those questions belong to ethics and moral reasoning. Many religions include mores and values that create the foundation for morality, but religion is not the same as moral code.

Aristotle talked a lot about morality and ethics. Which religion did he belong to?

I would say he had his own religion. If another one believes in the same things Aristotle believed, than he has the same religion.

I don't see those things being the foundation for a religion. Religion is more about practices and traditions involving a belief in a God or Gods.

They are not the foundation, they are part of the religion, later in the thread I said there are still many differences in worshiping aspects

He handed them through fallible people who used their special connection with God for ulterior motives. I can't say for sure that we can trust those "prophets".

Okay at least you didn't say for sure

Interesting that you a relating to math. Newton and Liebniz invented calculus about the same time. They invented two different systems to do it. Today you learn both in calculus class because both are useful in different ways. Newton notation is the one with prime, seconds, etc on functions, while Liebniz was the dy/dx one. (If I recall correctly). Both are true. Both are useful. But they are different.


Ergo, sometimes truths can be described in different ways, just as religion can. There doesn't have to be just one truth to describe the transcendental things.

I am not an expert in calculus, I am a business student. But the problem is that there is the differences in the religions practiced deny the fact that there can be more than one true religion

And I belief I found the true religion: no religion. Come and join me in truth!

I have other thoughts

Use God and religion to explain the truths about imaginary numbers. You like math, 1+1=2, so please provide the one and only truth about i.

I didn't understand ?

 

[Sabour]

I don't think I can address the verses without offending you.

Well in that case thank you. I have rarely seen someone doing that.

Anyways I just wanted to tell you that when I apologized I wasn't throwing away apologies. I really felt bad about my self for what you told me, because you had a point.

And just because I am from a different culture, and I didn't answer the question you asked me about Cyprus politics, doesn't mean I am an ignorant person. Even though if I were ignorant, this isn't a proof that I am wrong about my religion because the right religion isn't for intelligent people only.

Anyways I understand that I haven't clearly answered all your questions, but please I am just a muslim and I am not perfect. Maybe I am not reflecting Islam properly. So I hope you don't take Islam off the list just because of me. If you just can't trust me because I failed than please have a look to people like Yusuf estes, Joshua evans, hamza andreas tzortzis if you have time.

Thank you for your time and I hope you the best.

 

[Sabour]

Then what evidence do you have to support your "god theory'?

Evidence of our existence,the universe existence, just everything. Let me quote you some Quraanic verses please

19:67 Does man not remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?

78:6-16
6 Have We not made the earth a resting place?
7 And the mountains as stakes?
8 And We created you in pairs
9 And made your sleep [a means for] rest
10 And made the night as clothing
11 And made the day for livelihood
12 And constructed above you seven strong [heavens]
13 And made [therein] a burning lamp
14 And sent down, from the rain clouds, pouring water
15 That We may bring forth thereby grain and vegetation
16 And gardens of entwined growth.

25:61 Blessed is He who has placed in the sky great stars and placed therein a [burning] lamp and luminous moon.

27:88 And you see the mountains, thinking them rigid, while they will pass as the passing of clouds. [It is] the work of Allah , who perfected all things. Indeed, He is Acquainted with that which you do.

67:3[And] who created seven heavens in layers. You do not see in the creation of the Most Merciful any inconsistency. So return [your] vision [to the sky]; do you see any breaks?

32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay

16:79 Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up except Allah . Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Anyways I understand that I haven't clearly answered all your questions, but please I am just a muslim and I am not perfect. Maybe I am not reflecting Islam properly. So I hope you don't take Islam off the list just because of me. If you just can't trust me because I failed than please have a look to people like Yusuf estes, Joshua evans, hamza andreas tzortzis if you have time.

Actually I think you will help the Muslim cause by participating here. I hope you stay a long time.

 

[Sabour]

Actually I think you will help the Muslim cause by participating here. I hope you stay a long time.

Thanks man. I hope I do. But actually there is a lot of things I have to know about my religion. I know Islam has answers to all questions, but I am on the surface. The amount of questions in this forum is too much.

By the way while I was doing a small research about evolution, I came across this " the Piltdown man" The Piltdown Man, 1912

Not that I am calling for a discussion again.

See you around brother