Why I think there is one right religion

[Sabour]

Religions in general seem to have a marked tendency to claim for themselves the perfection of truth and/or knowledge -- as if all questioning, all seeking, all inquiry has come to an end.

I am not saying Quraan is a book of science and has all the questions. Quraan is a book of signs that show that it is the word of God.

 

[Sabour]

This argument makes no sense. You assert that we all have our own, individual religion, then assert that there is only one true religion. I don't get your point at all. Pointing out that lots of people believe lots of different things and answer certain moral problems differently isn't an incredible, mind-blowing revelation. It's blindingly obvious.

This argument was derived from my belief that God exists and it isn't just we are here for no purpose

The question is how you go about determining that this was God's intent, or whether or not God intends anything or even exists in the first place.

I should have started with that

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I am not saying Quraan is a book of science and has all the questions. Quraan is a book of signs that show that it is the word of God.

No true God would send words down to mankind, I think.

That would only confuse us.

Words are just little bits of sound with which we try to construct meaning. They aren't magical things which can carry God's Meaning to us.

 

[Truthisnotyourenemy]

I am not saying Quraan is a book of science and has all the questions. Quraan is a book of signs that show that it is the word of God.

Why do the signs in the Koran confirm 7th century ignorance?

 

[Sabour]

There is nothing in the Koran people never knew about back then.
The Koran is full of popular myths that existed centuries ago.

I think you misunderstood. The verses you referred to are for those who don't believe of the existence of God.

I think you were referring to the verses that I said are scientific miracles no ?

36:77 Does man not consider that We created him from a [mere] sperm-drop - then at once he is a clear adversary?
21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

78:7 And the mountains as stakes?

25:53 And it is He who has released [simultaneously] the two seas, one fresh and sweet and one salty and bitter, and He placed between them a barrier and prohibiting partition.

21:33 And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming.

21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

39:6 He created you from one soul. Then He made from it its mate, and He produced for you from the grazing livestock eight mates. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, within three darknesses. That is Allah , your Lord; to Him belongs dominion

 

[Sabour]

None of that is actually evidence for anything. That is literally the god of the gaps mixed with arguments from ignorance.

But it is something to start with

We exist therefore god must have made us. How do you know? Have we seen god

There are things we believe in without seeing.

make something and then measured and tested it?

Yes God made everything. And the testing is "science".

 

[Sabour]

Why do the signs in the Koran confirm 7th century ignorance?

Like what ? I think I didn't understand your question ?

 

[Sabour]

You think that the Piltdown Man was made by scientists?

Which scientists? What were their names?

As far as I remember they were students who made it up and did their thesis about it.

But no one knew about it till after 40 years ?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

As far as I remember they were students who made it up and did their thesis about it.

So far as I know, you are mistaken and confused. That didn't happen.

If you are going to use the Piltdown Man as some kind of evidence for your position, you need to have a good understanding of Piltdown Man.

But no one knew about it till after 40 years ?

Yes. It took 40 years for the scientists to figure it out. What is your point?

 

[Truthisnotyourenemy]

I think you misunderstood. The verses you referred to are for those who don't believe of the existence of God.

I think you were referring to the verses that I said are scientific miracles no ?

36:77 Does man not consider that We created him from a [mere] sperm-drop - then at once he is a clear adversary?
21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

78:7 And the mountains as stakes?

25:53 And it is He who has released [simultaneously] the two seas, one fresh and sweet and one salty and bitter, and He placed between them a barrier and prohibiting partition.

21:33 And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming.

21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

39:6 He created you from one soul. Then He made from it its mate, and He produced for you from the grazing livestock eight mates. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, within three darknesses. That is Allah , your Lord; to Him belongs dominion

None of the above are miracles.
Islamic websites promote miracles in the Koran, but this is just to convince the ignorant and gullible people.

For example lets look at one of your verses you have presented as evidence of a miracle:

21:33 And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming.

When the Koran was revealed it was commonly believed that the sun travelled around a stationary earth They had a geocentric understanding of our solar system. So this verse would've have not have surprised people back then as this is what they already believed.

So was the Koran referring to 7th century ignorance or modern science when it claimed the sun moved in an orbit:

031.029
PICKTHAL: Hast thou not seen how Allah causeth the night to pass into the day and causeth the day to pass into the night, and hath subdued the sun and the moon (to do their work), each running unto an appointed term; and that Allah is Informed of what ye do?

These were all visible phenomena to the people of the 7th century, they could 'see' the night turn into day and vise versa, they could see the sun and the moon run their courses around the earth. Just like you can if you look up at the sky and see the apparent movement of the sun.



013.002
Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you see, and He is firm in power and He made the sun and the moon subservient (to you); each one pursues its course to an appointed time; He regulates the affair, making clear the signs that you may be certain of meeting your Lord.

Again, the above verse claims the course the sun(and moon) take, are clear signs of Allahs existence. Once again confirming a geocentric solar system to its revealed audience.

36:37/38/39
PICKTHAL:A token unto them is night. We strip it of the day, and lo! they are in darkness. And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf.

The above verse explains that as night appears, earth becomes dark and the sun runs to its resting place and completes its course. Which again confirms the suns 'course' is related to day/night and confirms a geocentric understanding people held back then.

Although no further clarification is needed Mohammed kindly explains the error in his words:

Book 001, Number 0297:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne.....

So Mohammed tells us that at sunset, the sun runs to its resting place and completes its daily course and once again and confirms the errors in the Koran.

So it is clear that the suns course described by the Koran has nothing to do with the galactic orbit science has recently discovered. Rather it's a confirmation to it's early readers of the misunderstanding they held at the time.

 

[metis]

The only thing I see in Piltdown Man is how scientists are eager to manipulate things to make the evolution theory look real

Should we apply the same approach to Islam, whereas if there's even one Muslem who acts immorally that then entire religion and all Muslems should be condemned?

 

[Ouroboros]

The only thing I see in Piltdown Man is how scientists are eager to manipulate things to make the evolution theory look real

What I see is a person who is way too eager to jump to conclusions, hasty generalized, and create straw man arguments.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Should we apply the same approach to Islam, whereas if there's even one Muslem who acts immorally that then entire religion and all Muslems should be condemned?

For all we know, a Muslim or Muslim sympathizer may have created the Piltdown skulll -- trying to discredit evolution and so prove that the Quran is perfectly true.

We don't know who made it, do we? Gould seemed to suspect the Catholic priest Teilhard Chardan, if I remember.

 

[Sabour]

Should we apply the same approach to Islam, whereas if there's even one Muslem who acts immorally that then entire religion and all Muslems should be condemned?

If not a single muslim knows that they are wrong and tells them for 40 years, than I guess yeah you have the right.

Anyways, I don't want to discuss evolution anymore. It changes nothing about the subject discussed.

 

[Sabour]

36:77 Does man not consider that We created him from a [mere] sperm-drop - then at once he is a clear adversary?


The scientific identification of the key components of sexual
reproduction – eggs and sperm – took place during an
amazing decade of discovery in the 1660s and 1670s



21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

The Big Bang theory states that around 12-15 billion years ago the universe came into existence from one single extremely hot and dense point



78:7 And the mountains as stakes?

Scientists confirm that mountains have below them roots that extend deep into the earth's surface and stabilize the earth's crust. The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains, having deep roots and being stabilizers for the earth, has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960’s. These roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground. So the most suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word "peg", like the Qur'an describes it.



25:53 And it is He who has released [simultaneously] the two seas, one fresh and sweet and one salty and bitter, and He placed between them a barrier and prohibiting partition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B0GIDBVPtA


39:6 He created you from one soul. Then He made from it its mate, and He produced for you from the grazing livestock eight mates. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, within three darknesses. That is Allah , your Lord; to Him belongs dominion


Professor Keith Moore one of the most famous embryology scientists in the world says: the embryo moves from one developing stage to another inside three veils that were mentioned in the holy Quran as God says: (in three veils of darkness): the three veils of darkness may refer to: 1-The anterior abdominal wall, 2-The uterine wall, 3-The amniochorionic membrane.

 

[Ouroboros]

...
Professor Keith Moore one of the most famous embryology scientists in the world says: the embryo moves from one developing stage to another inside three veils that were mentioned in the holy Quran as God says: (in three veils of darkness): the three veils of darkness may refer to: 1-The anterior abdominal wall, 2-The uterine wall, 3-The amniochorionic membrane.

That's all?

Qur'an didn't say anything about the 20 peptides created by the codons in the genetic code? Anything about meiosis? What about the formation of black holes? There's still some questions about how black holes are created, so it would be interesting to get the true information from God how it's done. What about how many stars there are in the universe? Or galaxies? Or planets?

My point is, there are some trillion pieces of data points in our knowledge today. It's about doubling every 2-3 years. The pieces of data that the Qur'an happened to get right is smaller than a drop in an ocean.

It would be more interesting if the Qur'an could give us an equation for a unified field theory or perhaps explain what Higgs bosons are made of. More in the area where research is still going on. It's easy to form-fit past poetry to current knowledge (hindsight is 20-20) and call it prophecy. It's harder to actually use the poetic language and predict something right now. Which sura will explain P v NP? It would be cool to know now, 100 years ahead, before it's been solved.

 

[metis]

For all we know, a Muslim or Muslim sympathizer may have created the Piltdown skulll -- trying to discredit evolution and so prove that the Quran is perfectly true.

We don't know who made it, do we? Gould seemed to suspect the Catholic priest Teilhard Chardan, if I remember.

It supposedly was Charles Dawson, not to be confused with Darwin. He was a gung-ho Englishman who had tried to find what he hoped was the earliest human there. Why the hoax took so long to find is that he kept it in a large bell-jar and refused to let anyone remove it, plus the fact that this "find" was early enough whereas we weren't certain what such an early find would actually look like.

I had a book by Louis Leaky printed in 1948 before the hoax was determined, whereas he said that he thought it had to be a hoax because it wasn't fitting in anywhere with the many founds that had already been uncovered. After dawson died, his widow allow Loren Eisely to take a small chip out for dating purposes, and the minute that he did that he knew it was a fake because the bone underneath was white.

 

[Sabour]

That's all?

Qur'an didn't say anything about the 20 peptides created by the codons in the genetic code? Anything about meiosis? What about the formation of black holes? There's still some questions about how black holes are created, so it would be interesting to get the true information from God how it's done. What about how many stars there are in the universe? Or galaxies? Or planets?

My point is, there are some trillion pieces of data points in our knowledge today. It's about doubling every 2-3 years. The pieces of data that the Qur'an happened to get right is smaller than a drop in an ocean.

It would be more interesting if the Qur'an could give us an equation for a unified field theory or perhaps explain what Higgs bosons are made of. More in the area where research is still going on. It's easy to form-fit past poetry to current knowledge (hindsight is 20-20) and call it prophecy. It's harder to actually use the poetic language and predict something right now. Which sura will explain P v NP? It would be cool to know now, 100 years ahead, before it's been solved.

Quraan is not a book of science, but it has some signs

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

36:77 Does man not consider that We created him from a [mere] sperm-drop - then at once he is a clear adversary?


The scientific identification of the key components of sexual
reproduction – eggs and sperm – took place during an
amazing decade of discovery in the 1660s and 1670s

Sure. And up until that time, no one had ever noticed that sex was necessary in order to make new babies.

I would bet that there was some artificial insemination happening back then. The breeders would milk the sperm from the male and put it into the female. Ancient people were not so ignorant as you seem to think.

Professor Keith Moore one of the most famous embryology scientists in the world says: the embryo moves from one developing stage to another inside three veils that were mentioned in the holy Quran as God says: (in three veils of darkness): the three veils of darkness may refer to: 1-The anterior abdominal wall, 2-The uterine wall, 3-The amniochorionic membrane.

And no one had ever dissected a pregnant animal and noticed the three membranes.

Really, man... I think you should sit down and think a little harder about some of this stuff. There is no God who values gullibility in His creations.

 

[Ouroboros]

Quraan is not a book of science, but it has some signs

Right. It's not a book of science, but science books are.