Why I'm Not A "Feminist"

[oldbadger]

I haven't seen much of that here, to be honest. I'm always careful to use gender neutral terms to describe victims and assailants, and often find myself reminding people that we are NOT only talking about female victims of male sexual assault.

Yep...... I'm sure that you do...... consider a more full picture.

If anything, it's the "careful what you wear" crowd that persistently frames rape as something men do to women because they're showing too much cleavage, walking alone at night, having a drink in a pub or other such nonsense.

Well...... that is one aspect of risk reduction. Risk reduction and any debate about rape (sexua;l violence..... any violence) ought to be separated far from each other. On the one hand, showing people how to reduce their personal risk, and on the other, explaining to (say) a government that people should not have to worry what they wear...... are separate subjects, really.

I was a security specialist and trainer, and to write a full risk reduction package (about this) would set RF on fire! Honest! I'm not going there....... will have egg on toast instead!

 

[oldbadger]

You could post it to me by PM or use a spolier.
(Things can't get worse than they are....I think.)

I'll email it. To you, a lettings agent and money transit op it will make simple-stupid kindergarten sense, but in a rape conversation......

Hey, a related story:
As a landlord, I've dealt with 3 (possibly 4) Unity Church ministers, & got to know'm pretty well. The church had a philosophy that whatever you think of will be delivered by the universe. One minister said he was severely criticized for wanting to put curtains on the window to hide his new computer. (This was back in the day when the things were spendy & theftogenic.) Some in his flock said that even thinking of a robbery would cause it to happen. Wearing seat belts? It will cause you to get into a fender bender. They really believed in going thru life with a Pollyanna attitude. Some people's brains just work differently from ours, & the like minded flock together. I like many of the people in Unity Church & feminism, but I wouldn't want to join'm.

As I read this I thought that you were telling a joke. As I read on I realised that you were not telling a joke.

 

[Revoltingest]

As I read this I thought that you were telling a joke. As I read on I realised that you were not telling a joke.

I am continually amazed at what the human mind is capable of believing.
Also the strange things tenants will flush down a toilet.

 

[Alceste]

Let me try. One 'Mens' issue', not particularly with feminists but with a significant % of females is that they expect men to be the ones to walk into conflict on their behalf. This is an imprinted mindset but it must change now.

One example that springs to mind is our brave merchant seamen, Canadians, Americans and Brits, who were insulted and given white feathers by women whilst they waited, ashore, to run the gauntlet again....... and again....

The mindset exists, and it existed, even as women prepared to demonstrate for their right to vote..... terrified young men were preparing to be cannon (and torpedo) fodder.

I am a pacifist. I always protest war in every circumstance. I've done so consistently since Iraq the first, when I was only about 11.

I don't expect men to fight on my behalf. They're not my wars. Women are such a minority at that level of decision making it is very unfair to say those wars are fought for us. Wars are virtually always fought to advance the personal fortunes of the economic and political elites (cough - rich old white dudes, mostly - cough).

I'll grant you that when the flags start waving and the war propaganda starts flowing, both men and women tend to play cheerleader for whatever evil, murderous carnage the elites want to perpetrate to enrich themselves, and many aspiring heroes are eager to race off to war. But these days, there are plenty of women laying their lives on the line to make the Bush family richer right alongside the men.

We've actually had to fight quite hard - against enormous resistance - to be permitted to throw away our own lives for nothing, rather than leaving it all to silly young men.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I didn't call myself a feminist for awhile because I was disgusted with radical feminism and had a lot of arguments about feminism on another forum where I was continuously insulted by a rather mentally ill trans guy with severe self-hatred issues (go figure). Plus, I had issues with the term "feminism" because it made it seem like it's just focused on women.

Now, I don't know.

 

[oldbadger]

I am a pacifist. I always protest war in every circumstance. I've done so consistently since Iraq the first, when I was only about 11.

I would like to be. I would never want to take conflict to anybody, but to defend against violence from others..... I would have to defend.

I don't expect men to fight on my behalf. They're not my wars. Women are such a minority at that level of decision making it is very unfair to say those wars are fought for us. Wars are virtually always fought to advance the personal fortunes of the economic and political elites (cough - rich old white dudes, mostly - cough).

Oh..... Wars like WW1 were started by pompous fools, managed by pompous ..... etc ......

I'll grant you that when the flags start waving and the war propaganda starts flowing, both men and women tend to play cheerleader for whatever evil, murderous carnage the elites want to perpetrate to enrich themselves, and many aspiring heroes are eager to race off to war. But these days, there are plenty of women laying their lives on the line to make the Bush family richer right alongside the men.

It's going that way...... Our military has just changed it's rules about female ops on front lines....

We've actually had to fight quite hard - against enormous resistance - to be permitted to throw away our own lives for nothing, rather than leaving it all to silly young men.

Yes......


But I watched telly last night. My wife likes the show where three people cook for the same blind date on different nights. Last night this blind-date, when asked, explained..... 'I want a man to be a man, someone who can fight my battles......blah blah, etc'
You are in a minority..... how many folks think like you? It's the vast majority of young people who need to adjust their whole mindsets for a better quality of egalitarian life...... free from as many of these imprinted 'poos' as possible. It's the young men as well! History repeats itself, and to watch young people in nightclubs (I trained Door Supervisors as well as other ops) one gets the impression that these imprints are instinctive, so we need good minds to figure out how to teach this stuff out of our youth.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I did not say they were pro-draft.

You said they were silent.

 

[work in progress]

Everyone was against the draft, I think what he's getting at is, did they address the sexist nature of the draft or were they just anti-draft in general?

The feminists who believed the draft was necessary, also believed that women were equally subject to the draft - ref. Phyliss Schlafely's primary argument against ratifying the Equal Rights Amendment back in the mid-70's.

 

[work in progress]

Now to poke the hornet's nest another time.....

what a surprise!

....................Whenever the discussion turns to taking responsibility avoiding rape, it always (yes, always) devolves into empty accusations of "blaming the victim". It's often justified by saying they shouldn't have to do anything because it's the rapist who is in the wrong. Well of course they're in the wrong...which is why one should take reasonable measures to reduce the risk one of these wrongdoers might rape one. To advise taking steps to reduce the risk of assault is so worthwhile (I gave sources in another thread), yet some avowed feminists say it is entirely ineffective to take any reasonable step to mitigate risk, eg, avoid getting drunk, avoiding dangerous situations............................

Even you should have learned from the last round that telling women or girls they could have done something after-the-fact to avoid rape or sexual assault is blaming the victim.

Teenagers...by virtue of being teenagers, are going to do stupid things! That's just part of growing up...and I've even come across essays and interviews with neuroscientists studying brain development, who can provide the nuts&bolts as to why teenagers do a poor job at evaluating risk.

My boys took stupid chances and did stupid things, just like I did when I was young. Now that they are in their 20's, I'm hoping that they are maturing into adulthood. If I had daughters, I would feel more than a little bit of anguish; because I am well aware of the fact that teenage girls do not have the same freedom to be carefree as boys are for a number of reasons...mostly that modern culture includes a rape culture that excuses stalking, sexual assault, ****-shaming and even rape....check out some of the high school football trials for example.

So, girls have to "take responsibility," in other words, acknowledge the inequality of having less freedom of movement, freedom of dress, and freedom to indulge...whether we're talking alcohol, drugs, sex etc., than boys have. If the patrons of responsible behaviour would at least acknowledge the unfairness and inequality behind modern cultural norms, then, maybe some feminists wouldn't feel the need for **** walk demonstrations to focus on how condoning violence and intimidation infringes on the personal freedoms of women.

 

[work in progress]

I haven't seen much of that here, to be honest. I'm always careful to use gender neutral terms to describe victims and assailants, and often find myself reminding people that we are NOT only talking about female victims of male sexual assault.

If anything, it's the "careful what you wear" crowd that persistently frames rape as something men do to women because they're showing too much cleavage, walking alone at night, having a drink in a pub or other such nonsense.

I didn't want to bother responding to trolls, but I was thinking when I read of this concern for the male victims of rape - who are the rapists? Other men, not women. I don't know how the stats line up on the issue, but I would expect, based on anecdote, that most of the male victims of rape are going to be found in prisons or some sorts of all-male institutions. It's not the same issue in my view; just a needless distraction.

 

[work in progress]

I didn't call myself a feminist for awhile because I was disgusted with radical feminism and had a lot of arguments about feminism on another forum where I was continuously insulted by a rather mentally ill trans guy with severe self-hatred issues (go figure). Plus, I had issues with the term "feminism" because it made it seem like it's just focused on women.

Now, I don't know.

Maybe feminism is primarily trying to focus on the interests of women as a group....obviously a difficult task. But that's no different than having advocacy movements on behalf of visible minorities, gay rights, trans rights...I wasn't even aware that they were separate from the gay community until very recently. And I'm still not sure whether men....even men who support feminism and advocate for women's rights, can use the term 'feminist' referring to themselves. I've never claimed to be a feminist, but I support feminism.

Re: the bad arguments about feminism - it really needs to be put out there that there are many issues that divide feminists:
Betty Friedan, who is often credited with kicking off the 2nd wave of feminism by writing the Feminine Mystique in 1960, deliberately ignored and marginalized black women; fought loudly against openly lesbian women being allowed into the National Organization of Women; most feminists were neutral or undecided on pornography, while some like Germaine Greer were in favor of porn and open sexual relationships...while not even the most conservative, tightly wound evangelicals were as anti-porn as Andrea Dworkin! And I didn't even get to all of the divides on political and economic issues...but I'll leave it at that for now.

 

[Revoltingest]

Even you should have learned from the last round that telling women or girls they could have done something after-the-fact to avoid rape or sexual assault is blaming the victim.

I don't know your intent with this disgusting & utterly false representation of my posts.
Be it humor, poor reading comprehension, or outright dishonesty, you are in the wrong.
This is far too sensitive an issue for many to allow you to polarize things. Some people in
this forum have been sexually assaulted, & it's clear that wounds are still fresh. Your
tactic will make it appear that they're still under attack by blaming them. It serves to
make civil discussion impossible when you eschew integrity & empathy.

In advising that reasonable precautions should be taken, I addressed what people
can do to reduce the risk of sexual assault.
I DID NOT ADDRESS ANY HISTORICAL EVENTS WITH RETROSPECTIVE ADVICE.
I HAVE SPECIFICALLY & REPEATEDLY STATED THAT THE VICTIM IS NEVER AT FAULT.
TO URGE STEPS TAKEN TO REDUCE RISK IS NOT TO BLAME VICTIMS. THE SINGULAR
PURPOSE OF PREVENTIVE MEASURES IS TO AVOID BEING VICTIMIZED IN THE 1ST PLACE.
If you cannot engage in civil & honest discussion, then please just leave the thread.

 

[Revoltingest]

You said they were silent.

That's closer.
What I said in the OP was "very silent".
The modifier, "very", is important because it means that they were more
silent than I would wish, but does not mean that they were absolutely silent.
I chose my phrasing with precision & purpose. Can't just drop a word here or there.

 

[Robert.Evans]

To clarify what this thread is about, I put "feminist" in quotation marks because I do not identify
with the label. But I favor gender equality as do many mainstream feminists. Heckfire, I even
took a test which classified me as a feminist. (Shocker, eh?)
So why eschew the label?
Tis because I see feminism as a movement embodying some general (with some diversity) traits.

Feminism:
- Focuses on females.
Sure, sure, some feminists also address disadvantages visited upon men.
But by & large, it's about the females. I noticed that they were very
silent about the military draft of men.
- Tends to dismiss the MRM (men's rights movement) as reactionary,
anti-feminism, whiny, or a subset of feminism (since their approach to
gender equality would fix all men's problems too).
- Advocates increased government authority. Affirmative action was a
fine tool for women, but it legalized active discrimination against men.
- Tolerates hostility in its own ranks against males. All gender inequity
is chalked up to "patriarchy", ie, it's the man's fault.
- Sees women as victims, failing to recognize & use the power they already have.
- Polarizes the abortion debate, making anti-abortion advocates out to be
anti-woman. I'm pro-abortion, but see this as a question of when life & attendant
civil rights begin. The whole "war on woman" campaign seems dishonest & divisive.

Is anyone else here a "non" (non-feminist) despite sympathy for the cause?
Why?

Note:
Don't take my generalities too far. I only see them as slight group tendencies.
Moreover, I don't say my perspective is THE TRUTH or any such foolishness.
I merely explain what I see, how I react, & what I believe.

Rules for this thread:
- Be civil to each other. After all, we're just disagreeing about important things.
- Go ahead & generalize, but be careful about over-generalizing.

why if you are a woman does your sign say you are a male? Also, if you are not a feminist, does that mean you dress as a woman (what does that mean??) or in trousers with short hair like a man with the vote, job kids power etc, because I think that is feminism isn't it? Perhaps most of the dirty work is done now and you don't have to class yourself as that.

 

[Revoltingest]

why if you are a woman does your sign say you are a male?

I'm a male.
Yup (I checked), I'm definitely a male.

Also, if you are not a feminist, does that mean you dress as a woman (what does that mean??) or in trousers with short hair like a man with the vote, job kids power etc, because I think that is feminism isn't it? Perhaps most of the dirty work is done now and you don't have to class yourself as that.

I dress in loud Hawaiian shirts, pants or shorts, & sandals with socks.
I know your next question.....and yes, I am a dandy.

 

[Draupadi]

To clarify what this thread is about, I put "feminist" in quotation marks because I do not identify
with the label. But I favor gender equality as do many mainstream feminists. Heckfire, I even
took a test which classified me as a feminist. (Shocker, eh?)
So why eschew the label?
Tis because I see feminism as a movement embodying some general (with some diversity) traits.

Feminism:
- Focuses on females.
Sure, sure, some feminists also address disadvantages visited upon men.
But by & large, it's about the females. I noticed that they were very
silent about the military draft of men.
- Tends to dismiss the MRM (men's rights movement) as reactionary,
anti-feminism, whiny, or a subset of feminism (since their approach to
gender equality would fix all men's problems too).
- Advocates increased government authority. Affirmative action was a
fine tool for women, but it legalized active discrimination against men.
- Tolerates hostility in its own ranks against males. All gender inequity
is chalked up to "patriarchy", ie, it's the man's fault.
- Sees women as victims, failing to recognize & use the power they already have.
- Polarizes the abortion debate, making anti-abortion advocates out to be
anti-woman. I'm pro-abortion, but see this as a question of when life & attendant
civil rights begin. The whole "war on woman" campaign seems dishonest & divisive.

Is anyone else here a "non" (non-feminist) despite sympathy for the cause?
Why?

Note:
Don't take my generalities too far. I only see them as slight group tendencies.
Moreover, I don't say my perspective is THE TRUTH or any such foolishness.
I merely explain what I see, how I react, & what I believe.

Rules for this thread:
- Be civil to each other. After all, we're just disagreeing about important things.
- Go ahead & generalize, but be careful about over-generalizing.

Such reactions in feminism is natural because we are one of the most oppressed sexes around. But I am an egalitarian.

 

[Revoltingest]

Such reactions in feminism is natural because we are one of the most oppressed sexes around. But I am an egalitarian.

Greetings, new person!
Would you tell us how things are for you in your country regarding women?

And yes, the reactions I describe are normal, so I don't call them wrong.

 

[Draupadi]

Horrible I should say. I am from Bangladesh. Here many women get killed for marriage dowry, women are blamed if they are molested, criticised if they don't dress "modestly", etc.

 

[Revoltingest]

Horrible I should say. I am from Bangladesh. Here many women get killed for marriage dowry, women are blamed if they are molested, criticised if they don't dress "modestly", etc.

I wish I had useful advice for you.
But you're safe here at RF.
(We can be rude at times though.)
I hope you find us engaging, & stay around.

 

[Revoltingest]

OK..... So you're not a feminist, but I couldn't read all that drivvel beneath.

I could help you with the big words.


Why didn't I think of that insult earlier?
Oh, presence of mind, why must ye abandon me in my moment of need?