Why insult?

[Trolle]

But the "insult" is of a religion, not a person.

But they knew what they were publishing would **** some people off which is childish.

 

[Sunstone]

But they knew what they were publishing would **** some people off which is childish.

The truth has pissed more people off than all the lies in history. Is the truth childish?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

But they knew what they were publishing would **** some people off which is childish.

No, just doing a job. Political satire pisses a lot of people off too, but so what? I think the basic problem here is one of over-sensitivity to criticism by a religion that hasn't quite realised it's now the 21st century..
I can't think of any other major world religion that would start murdering people because they satirised their founder or god or whatever. So it looks like it's Islam's problem, not the worlds.

 

[gsa]

And who defines what an insult is? Is the South Park depiction of Mormonism insulting? And can we really deny that certain truths are insulting? Yet we should refrain from speaking them?

I agree that people should not go out of their way to unfairly attack the religious beliefs of others. But I don't agree that it is an ethical responsibility on par with refraining from murder for blasphemy, and I don't believe that all irreverent caricatures of religion should be avoided to spare the feelings of believers.

 

[Skwim]

The last thing Muslims need is more insults.

And this is points up a simpleminded peculiarity of Islam: care enough about what others think and say about the religion that revenge is an appropriate reaction.

Why do people attach so much significance to the opinions of others, people they don't even know. "I need to have your approval" or "I need you to agree with me," or "and whatever you do, please don't ever express your disagreement." It's almost childish in its rationale. OR, is it that Muslims just love violence, and the more violent the better?

 

[Lyndon]

What's childish, and against the TOS rules of most forums, is to deliberately insult people or their faith.

 

[Trolle]

The truth has pissed more people off than all the lies in history. Is the truth childish?

No, but deliberately pissing off people for no reason is. What exactly did they look to accomplish by publishing this piece other than to insult some Muslims? People will always be offended by something but I never see a reason to purposely insult someone just because.

 

[Skwim]

What's childish, and against the TOS rules of most forums, is to deliberately insult people or their faith.

Assuming your post is addressed to my comment, this is fine. Forums can make whatever rules they wish, but I'm not talking about forums in particular.

 

[Trolle]

No, just doing a job. Political satire pisses a lot of people off too, but so what? I think the basic problem here is one of over-sensitivity to criticism by a religion that hasn't quite realised it's now the 21st century..
I can't think of any other major world religion that would start murdering people because they satirised their founder or god or whatever. So it looks like it's Islam's problem, not the worlds.

That's true but one should realize that there can be consequences when you insult people for no reason. However, to your point, there was also no need for these murderous fools to kill people over a cartoon. I guess I just believe that we all need to be kinder to one another.

 

[gsa]

And this is points up a simpleminded peculiarity of Islam: care enough about what others think and say about the religion that revenge is an appropriate reaction.

Why do people attach so much significance to the opinions of others, people they don't even know. "I need to have your approval" or "I need you to agree with me," or "and whatever you do, please don't ever express your disagreement." It's almost childish in its rationale. OR, is it that Muslims just love violence, and the more violent the better?

I don't think it is Islam per se, but rather Islam in this time and place. Tolerance of dissent has varied throughout the history of the religion, as with Christianity. But today political Islam is violently intolerant of blasphemy, apostasy and other deviations from Islamic orthodoxy, and also insists that Islam (and by extension, Muslims) be treated with a level of reverence, as well as dignity and respect of course, that no religious tradition enjoys in free countries.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

No, but deliberately pissing off people for no reason is.

The reason here is probably to demonstrate and preserve freedom of speech. The alternative is people living in fear and not saying what sometimes needs to be said.

 

[Sunstone]

No, but deliberately pissing off people for no reason is. What exactly did they look to accomplish by publishing this piece other than to insult some Muslims? People will always be offended by something but I never see a reason to purposely insult someone just because.

To suggest that they had no purpose in publishing their piece other than to insult some Muslims strikes me as spin on your part. I strongly suspect that you really don't know what you're claiming to know: That is, you don't know what their motives were.

 

[Pegg]

And this is points up a simpleminded peculiarity of Islam: care enough about what others think and say about the religion that revenge is an appropriate reaction.

Why do people attach so much significance to the opinions of others, people they don't even know. "I need to have your approval" or "I need you to agree with me," or "and whatever you do, please don't ever express your disagreement." It's almost childish in its rationale. OR, is it that Muslims just love violence, and the more violent the better?

you have to remember that muslims have been brought up in a culture of silence, respect and obey from a very young age... its drilled into them that they cannot question or disagree with their own religion, so when others question it or disagree, it is not taken lightly.

We dont have to provoke them to anger just because we can.

 

[gsa]

No, but deliberately pissing off people for no reason is. What exactly did they look to accomplish by publishing this piece other than to insult some Muslims? People will always be offended by something but I never see a reason to purposely insult someone just because.

But that is not what Charlie Hebdo is doing; these so-called "insults" (and most are not insults) are (very French) pieces of left wing satire. There is a new website up that explains some of the cartoons to non-Francophone readers.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

its drilled into them that they cannot question or disagree with their own religion, so when others question it or disagree, it is not taken lightly.

If I went to visit or live in a Muslim country I would respect the values of that culture while I was there. But why is this a such a problem the other way round?

 

[Pegg]

If I went to visit or live in a Muslim country I would respect the values of that culture while I was there. But why is this a such a problem the other way round?

because we live in a very connected community... we accept multi culturalism and we allow people of different cultures to live in our societies. If we are going to do that, we must respect them while they are in our communities, yes?

Its no good saying they can come and live here, but you'll have to put up with our insults. That is not a very nice thing to do. If it is done in a school playgound, we usually call those kids 'bullies'

There is no need to bully and provoke others because we dont like their religion. I also dont agree that they should be trying to enforce their religion on people. There are mistakes being made on both sides.

 

[Skwim]

No, but deliberately pissing off people for no reason is. What exactly did they look to accomplish by publishing this piece other than to insult some Muslims? People will always be offended by something but I never see a reason to purposely insult someone just because.

Just so you know, insult is created in the mind of the insulted. This isn't to say that someone may not take advantage of this reaction and throw out a barb or two, but its genesis still lies within the insulted. Don't want to be insulted or offended, then stop caring about the remark. Can't do that? then perhaps therapy may be in order. One of Mad Magazine's principle features was to purposely satirize others, some of whom took it as an insult, and others putting it in perspective and letting it roll off their backs. So, we know an "insult" can be ignored. And, if you can't cope with an "insult" then try taking the steam out of it by ignoring it. Eventually, as such "insults" loose there power to generate a reaction they will disappear.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

because we live in a very connected community... we accept multi culturalism and we allow people of different cultures to live in our societies. If we are going to do that, we must respect them while they are in our communities, yes?

But every country has a core set of values which immigrants are expected to sign up to. That seems fair enough to me. In most countries those values are determined through a democratic process, not by the threat of terrorism.

 

[Sunstone]

We dont have to provoke them to anger just because we can.

You seem to be implying that it is common to insult Muslims "just because we can". Do you have any examples of that. I ask in part because the spin that defenders of terrorism are putting on these matters is that the magazine was insulting Muslims just because it could. I don't think popularizing that terrorist's spin is the way for you to go, Pegg.

 

[Skwim]

you have to remember that muslims have been brought up in a culture of silence, respect and obey from a very young age... its drilled into them that they cannot question or disagree with their own religion, so when others question it or disagree, it is not taken lightly.

And I do recognize this---good point by the way. However, the fact remains that Muslims as a whole seem easily insulted and can react in a vicious way.

We dont have to provoke them to anger just because we can.

Absolutely not. But their propensity to a quick temper should not stop anyone from expressing themselves. Who want's to keep their tongue in check for fear of . . . . . . . . . Other than the normal exceptions to free speech, it should not be coerced to do or not do anything.