Why is being gay considered wrong?

[Draka]

Because we are not having a religious discussion...

Sabio

If you read some others' posts here you will see that religion has been brought in. It is a point of conversation in this thread. Because so many people base their thoughts of why homosexuality is wrong on religious beliefs.

 

[Sabio]

Then I have to ask if you have paid attention to some questions some others on this thread have asked?

These are very good questions. If you are a believer that gays CHOOSE to be gay, then can you answer these questions asked by ch'ang?

"One last thought if people have a choice to be gay or not then why would anyone chose to be gay, you get persecuted can't get married, are at higher risk of getting AIDS ect. So with all these bad things why don't people choose not be gay anymore?"

Draka, The question at hand is "Why is being gay considered wrong", not "How does the choice of a gay lifestyle affect ones mental and physical health".

ch'ang's question is like asking "why does a heterosexual stay in an abusive relationship." But that is not what we are addressing.

Sabio

 

[Draka]

Draka, The question at hand is "Why is being gay considered wrong", not "How does the choice of a gay lifestyle affect ones mental and physical health".

ch'ang's question is like asking "why does a heterosexual stay in an abusive relationship." But that is not what we are addressing.

Sabio

You are beginning to amuse me Sabio. We talk about whether or not gays are born gay and you elect to believe that they are not, hence you believe they choose to be gay and when I ask you to answer valid questions that challenge that belief then you refuse to answer citing that is not what we are talking about. The subjects of conversation are intertwined. If, religiously speaking, gays choose to be gay then it is wrong in the eyes of the religions that condemn it, if however, gays are born gay, then one cannot truly condemn then for being biologically what they are. If you cannot answer those questions put forth by ch'ang then just admit it.

 

[Jaymes]

The biggest beef I have with gay people are these reasons. I don't think two males or two females can create as well-rounded a child as one male and one female. They don't give all the traits in such a situation.

And you've done research on single parents vs. different-sex parents vs. same-sex parents for how long, now?

Gay people tend to live in a way that increases risks of AIDS.

Considering that AIDS transmission is usually very low among lesbians, you're gonna have to rephrase that to 'gay males.' And it's usually due to lack of education... after all, how many guys have you heard of getting pregnant? Due to the woeful state of sex ed. in the US many are unaware they need to use condoms during sex.

Money to pay for AIDS prevention/awareness and treat people with AIDS generally comes from the taxpayer, and I don't like having to pay for people who choose to live in this dangerous lifestyle.

Guess a bit of compassion is a bit too much to ask. Preventing and awareness isn't saying "go hump each other like bunnies with no condoms," you know. You'd think the words prevention and awareness in particular would be a clue that it's trying to prevent HIV/AIDS, not promote it.

I also don't think gay people are born gay, since that seems to be what people are arguing here.

I don't think it matters if we are or not.

 

[Sabio]

You are beginning to amuse me Sabio. We talk about whether or not gays are born gay and you elect to believe that they are not, hence you believe they choose to be gay and when I ask you to answer valid questions that challenge that belief then you refuse to answer citing that is not what we are talking about. The subjects of conversation are intertwined. If, religiously speaking, gays choose to be gay then it is wrong in the eyes of the religions that condemn it, if however, gays are born gay, then one cannot truly condemn then for being biologically what they are. If you cannot answer those questions put forth by ch'ang then just admit it.

Well I am glad I'm amusing you and not just aggravating you

Religiously speaking... I don't think many people choose to be gay because of a religion, though there are some gay people who choose to turn from the gay lifestyle because of religious beliefs. I agree that most "World Views" Christian, Moslem, Judiasm, etc. teach that gay is not normal, some teach it to be an abomination. I believe these World Views also teach that we should love people, even if what we think they are doing is "off the chart". I do not believe in condeming gays, though I dare not try to convert them to my way of thinking on this particular forum.

I think that from a biological viewpoint men and women are created very different in mind and body, one man and one woman together is a perfect fit, they can reproduce together, their biology and psyche compliments one another, there is no better fit. Conversly, it is readily apparent from nature and biology that when two men, or two women choose to unite it is unnatural, religion notwithstanding.

Now, please tell me how Bi-sexuals and Trans sexuals should be viewed? Are they part of the majority set of people who are heterosexual? Or are they part of the minority set of people who are homosexual? If a Bi-Sexual finds out after years of flip flopping that they are really heterosexual, then was their Bi-sexual experience simply choice? What if they experimented for years with both sexes then found out that they were gay, was their experiment still "choice"?

Sabio

 

[Scott1]

To me this whole argument is stupid who cares if it is wired in the brain or not the fact is they are gay and they should be allowed to be gay even if you have prejudices against them

The argument is "stupid" but you felt compelled to contribute... hmmm

I also think that most people nowadays hate gays because the bible tells them to

No one here said they "hate" gays... in fact, I do believe it was that exact opposite... I find this sort of debate tactic to be unworthy of respect.

One last thought if people have a choice to be gay or not then why would anyone chose to be gay, you get persecuted can't get married, are at higher risk of getting AIDS ect. So with all these bad things why don't people choose not be gay anymore?

People choose to sin in a variety of ways.... many things in society will get you put in jail, but people do them anyways... this does not prove your point one bit.

 

[Jaymes]

First off, GAY AGENDA??? Now it is an agenda??? :sarcastic

Of course we have an agenda. It goes something like this:
6:00 am Gym
8:00 am Breakfast (oatmeal and egg whites)
9:00 am Hair appointment
10:00 am Shopping
12:00 PM Brunch

2:00 PM
1) Assume complete control of the U.S. Federal, State and Local Governments as well as all other national governments,
2) Recruit all straight youngsters to our debauched lifestyle,
3) Destroy all healthy heterosexual marriages,
4) Replace all school counselors in grades K-12 with agents of Colombian and Jamaican drug cartels,
5) Establish planetary chain of homo breeding gulags where over-medicated imprisoned straight women are turned into artificially impregnated baby factories to produce prepubescent love slaves for our devotedly pederastic gay leadership,
6) bulldoze all houses of worship, and
7) Secure total control of the INTERNET and all mass media for the exclusive use of child pornographers.

2:30 PM Get forty winks of beauty rest to prevent facial wrinkles from stress of world conquest
4:00 PM Cocktails
6:00 PM Light Dinner (soup, salad, with Chardonnay)
8:00 PM Theater
11:00 PM Bed

Yep, that's pretty much the gay agenda.

 

[Jaymes]

I really don't see the problem with being gay if you want to be gay go ahead (as long as you don't hit on me)

Beggars can't be choosers, but I really have a problem with statements like this. You're either comfortable with gays/lesbians/bisexuals or you're not. Being okay with it doesn't magically disappear someone of the same sex hits on you--or shouldn't, anyway. If you make it clear you're not interested, odds are they'll do the polite thing and back off. And if they don't they should be treated with the same distaste as anyone else that hits on you when you don't want it.

 

[Scott1]

Of course we have an agenda.

No need to make a joke of it... you do have an agenda... we all do.

Every thread that concerns homosexuality, you will jump on and support your views because it is personal to you... that's an agenda.

Every thread that concerns the Catholic Church, I will jump on and support my views because it is personal to me... that's my agenda.

To pretend otherwise.... well....

 

[Sabio]

Of course we have an agenda. It goes something like this:
6:00 am Gym
8:00 am Breakfast (oatmeal and egg whites)
9:00 am Hair appointment
10:00 am Shopping
12:00 PM Brunch

2:00 PM
1) Assume complete control of the U.S. Federal, State and Local Governments as well as all other national governments,
2) Recruit all straight youngsters to our debauched lifestyle,
3) Destroy all healthy heterosexual marriages,
4) Replace all school counselors in grades K-12 with agents of Colombian and Jamaican drug cartels,
5) Establish planetary chain of homo breeding gulags where over-medicated imprisoned straight women are turned into artificially impregnated baby factories to produce prepubescent love slaves for our devotedly pederastic gay leadership,
6) bulldoze all houses of worship, and
7) Secure total control of the INTERNET and all mass media for the exclusive use of child pornographers.

2:30 PM Get forty winks of beauty rest to prevent facial wrinkles from stress of world conquest
4:00 PM Cocktails
6:00 PM Light Dinner (soup, salad, with Chardonnay)
8:00 PM Theater
11:00 PM Bed

Yep, that's pretty much the gay agenda.

Your a hoot Jensa!

By the way, I did not know that lesbians were biased against red wine and only drank chardonnay? Does the CA wine industry know this?

Sabio

 

[Ryan2065]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus3.htm

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Religious conservatives often point to studies of identical twins who were separated at birth and raised independently. If one is gay, then the other twin is found to be gay only about 55% of the time.[/font]

I am not so sure how much this concludes... In society today people feel it is wrong to be gay, and it could just be like the left handed thing, where with enough practice, you can learn to write with your right hand. Seeing as 55% of all people aren't gay, it should be noted that if your twin is gay it is more likely that you are gay. I'm thinking it is something that you are born with, but if you try hard enough you can "rewire" your brain so to speak. I'm not saying its wrong or anything, just want to offer an objective point of view =)

As far as the bi thing goes... hey, some people can use both right and left hands, could be something of the same thing!
**Edit** if anyone could actually find the twin study they speak of please let me know. I can only find references to it...

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Scott1-- I would be interested in hearing your response to the question, "Why is being gay considered wrong?" Or, perhaps more to core of the issue, "Why are homosexual acts any different from heterosexual acts?"

[edit: the following was not directed toward Scott, who had every right to be a bit peeved at me for making insinuations about his beliefs ]

Reality check:
1) Whether something is "normal" or not has nothing to do with whether it is wrong. I have hemophilia, which is not normal. Some people put ketchup on their scrambled eggs, which is not normal. Devoting your life to helping the poor is not normal. So what?
2) Whether or not something is "natural" has nothing to do with whether or not it is wrong. Infanticide is "natural"...does that mean it's okay? No. Similarly, surfing the web isn't "natural"....does that mean it's wrong? No.
3) Whether or not something is a "choice" has nothing to do with whether or not it is wrong. Whether a person chooses to engage in sexual relations with a member of the same sex is irrelevant to whether or not sexual relations with the same sex is "wrong".

I do not think that homosexuality is wrong, and while I do not think people make a conscious decision as to whom to feel attracted to sexually, I would not think homosexuality wrong even if it WAS a conscious decision.

Let's remember one other thing during these discussions: there is a difference between believing something is sinful, and believing that the sinners are somehow "bad" because of it. Christians believe that being non-Christian is sinful, for example, but few Christians regard that particular sin as a measure of a person's character. I believe that smoking is wrong....but that doesn't mean I think I am in any way superior to smokers. I guess what I'm trying to say is, there is nothing wrong with believing homosexuality is wrong, as long as there is tolerance.

 

[Jaymes]

Now, please tell me how Bi-sexuals and Trans sexuals should be viewed? Are they part of the majority set of people who are heterosexual? Or are they part of the minority set of people who are homosexual? If a Bi-Sexual finds out after years of flip flopping that they are really heterosexual, then was their Bi-sexual experience simply choice? What if they experimented for years with both sexes then found out that they were gay, was their experiment still "choice"?

I know that this was aimed at Draka, so please forgive me for stepping in.

On transsexuality, from Wikipedia:

Gender identity disorder as identified by psychologists and medical doctors is a condition where a person who has been assigned one gender (usually at birth on the basis of their sex, but compare intersexual) but identifies as belonging to another gender, or does not conform with the gender role their respective society prescribes to them.
The current edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has five criteria that must be met before a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder can be given:

1. There must be evidence of a strong and persistent cross-gender identification.
2. This cross-gender identification must not merely be a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex.
3. There must also be evidence of persistent discomfort about one's assigned sex or a sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex.
4. The individual must not have a concurrent physical intersex condition (e.g., androgen insensitivity syndrome or congenital adrenal hyperplasia).
5. There must be evidence of clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

In the past, many psychological causes for transsexualism have been proposed; including "overbearing mothers and absent fathers", "parents who wanted a child of the other sex", "repressed homosexuality", "sexual abuse" or a variety of sexual perversions.

None of these theories however was able to be applied successfully to a majority of transsexual people, usually not even to a significant minority. Many theories also were developed in order to describe transsexual women, and when applied to transmen, they usually work even less. Many of these theories had also previously been applied to homosexuals, where they did not work out, either. This led to theories which consider physical reasons for transsexualism.

Experience with individuals who were surgically reassigned at birth (in order to correct deformities such as those caused by accidental castration) suggests strongly that the mental gender identification is determined at birth - individuals born male but raised as female show the same symptoms of gender dysphoria as transsexuals.

 

[Jaymes]

No need to make a joke of it... you do have an agenda... we all do.

Every thread that concerns homosexuality, you will jump on and support your views because it is personal to you... that's an agenda.

Every thread that concerns the Catholic Church, I will jump on and support my views because it is personal to me... that's my agenda.

To pretend otherwise.... well....

A little joking never hurt anyone though, yea?

A personal agenda is completely different from the vast conspiracy that controls everything that the 'gay agenda' is painted to be.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

It is a deviation from the Lord's plan, and condemned in the Bible.

As one of my favorite people has in her signature....

Never trust a man who puts his words in the mouth of God and says it's absolute truth. ~ Voltaire

:jam:

 

[Sabio]

I know that this was aimed at Draka, so please forgive me for stepping in.

On transsexuality, from Wikipedia:

I don't mind...

But I don't believe transsexuality to be a psychiatric condition.

Since you have started down this road, can you answer the questions I posed to Draka on Bi-sexuals and Transsexuals?

Have you tried Shiraz Jensa? I know you could be converted from the nasty white Chardonnay!

Thanks

Sabio

 

[Sabio]

A little joking never hurt anyone though, yea?

A personal agenda is completely different from the vast conspiracy that controls everything that the 'gay agenda' is painted to be.

I know that the Illuminati has to have a hand in this...

Sabio

 

[Scott1]

"Why is being gay considered wrong?"

I don't consider it "wrong" or sinful.

"Why are homosexual acts any different from heterosexual acts?"

They are not.

Reality check:

Don't appreciate this crack one bit Spinks... you should know better.

1) Whether something is "normal" or not has nothing to do with whether it is wrong.

Never said it was.

Whether or not something is "natural" has nothing to do with whether or not it is wrong. Infanticide is "natural"...does that mean it's okay?

Never said it was.

Whether or not something is a "choice" has nothing to do with whether or not it is wrong.

Never said it was..... batting 1.000!!

Whether a person chooses to engage in sexual relations with a member of the same sex is irrelevant to whether or not sexual relations with the same sex is "wrong".

I agree... but would like to point out that AGAIN... I never said it was or was not relevant.

Let's remember one other thing during these discussions: there is a difference between believing something is sinful, and believing that the sinners are somehow "bad" because of it.

Let's also remember who we are speaking to... and not assume what they believe.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there is nothing wrong with believing homosexuality is wrong, as long as there is tolerance.

I'm glad you approve.

 

[Jaymes]

I don't mind...

But I don't believe transsexuality to be a psychiatric condition.

Even when most of the medical community believes otherwise?

Since you have started down this road, can you answer the questions I posed to Draka on Bi-sexuals and Transsexuals?

Sure thing.

Now, please tell me how Bi-sexuals and Trans sexuals should be viewed? Are they part of the majority set of people who are heterosexual? Or are they part of the minority set of people who are homosexual? If a Bi-Sexual finds out after years of flip flopping that they are really heterosexual, then was their Bi-sexual experience simply choice? What if they experimented for years with both sexes then found out that they were gay, was their experiment still "choice"?

How should they be viewed? As people. On a more serious note, I tend to see bisexuals as one of three things: A homosexual who's hesitant to admit their homosexuality (I was like this at one point), a straight person exploring their sexuality (a friend of mine was like this at one point, which was interesting), or someone who is truly bisexual with either no preference to either gender or a preference to one gender while not disliking the thought of being with the other gender.

Are bisexual experiences a choice? Of course not, why wouldn't they be? The orientation isn't a choice, I believe, but the experiences were a choice. My homosexual and heterosexual experiences were a choice (a good one, too! Heheh) since nobody held a gun to my head and told me to do (fill in the blank).

Have you tried Shiraz Jensa? I know you could be converted from the nasty white Chardonnay!

I have to admit, I've not tasted either of those and don't really know what they are (besides wine)... come on, I'm only 18!

 

[Valjean]

No they are not.

I am not saying it is choice, because I believe that it is caused your circumstances, raising, and experiences

You're not aware that there are identifiable, anatomical differences in the brains of gays; that gayness can be detected by a brain scan?

Are you saying that these anatomical differences are not innate; that they're somehow produced by parenting styles or socialization?