• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why is evolution even still a debate?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
your beliefs are just as much based on faith as my beliefs. That is what the whole naturalistic methodology is. It works in science

Disagree. Faith is unjustified belief, meaning beliefs supported by it lack sufficient evidentiary support to be accepted as correct by empirical standards.

The foundations of science include philosophical planks such as skepticism, or the idea that no idea should be accepted without sufficient support, and empiricism, or the belief that sufficient support comes from compelling evidence. Are these believed on faith? No. They have been shown to be reliable beliefs by the stellar success of their fruits.

But as I find myself writing increasingly often, what do you think the persuasive power of an argument that doesn't recognize the evidence in support of the scientific method and calls it all faith is?

science is only able to study the material universe and even admits that it can say nothing about the existence of God.

Science doesn't say that it can know nothing about God. Theists do.

Let God manifest physically. Let God answer prayer. Let God move mountains when believers pray, and science will see it. If there is no physical manifestation to an imagined entity, then that entity is not a part of our reality, and can be said to be nonexistent.

Isn't that the quality that distinguishes the nonexistent from the real - the inability of the former to have any interaction with the latter? That's what distinguishes wolves from werewolves, and vampire bats from vampires. Wolves and vampire bats modify reality by virtue of being a part of it and interacting with its elements, whereas werewolves and vampires never change anything. They don't interact with reality. That's what nonexistent means - undetectable.

How are gods different than werewolves and vampires? What makes them more real? All three are considered undetectable. Isn't that what you mean by saying that science can say nothing about God - that it cannot make any observation or measurement that would reveal God or the realm of the supernatural? How is that different from saying that such things are nonexistent?

Supernaturalism is an incoherent proposition. It posits a reality that can impact ours without impacting our reality, that is, a God that is causally connected to nature such that it can impregnate a virgin, for example, but not detectable by science. Compare that with werewolves and wolves. Werewolves affect nothing, and are undetectable. Those two ideas go together, and are the sine qua non of the nonexistent. Whereas wolves (yes, I did that deliberately) affect their environments and are affected by them, and are thus detectable and can be listed among the real, the existent. Those ideas go together as well.

Where the concept becomes incoherent is when we mix these, and posit gods that can affect our reality but themselves are undetectable, a sort of one-way causality.

Consider Sagan's dragon in the garage, a figment of his imagination that refers to nothing real, but is claimed to be real and to exist. Take a look at this:

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll offer to spray-paint the dragon to make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick."

And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists?

This is exactly how the skeptic views the claim that this deity is real but empirically undetectable. Of course, the theist adds the equivalent of saying that this dragon actually can affect reality even though it is undetectable.

When people step past that and start saying that science tells us that God does not exist, that is stepping out in faith.

Agreed. And notice that I didn't do that. I haven't said that gods don't exist, just that if they are empirically undetectable even in principle, they are indistinguishable from the nonexistent and can be treated as such until they DO do something detectable.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
This isn't about "those who reject evolution". It's about the proposition that evolution is not really a theory, but a proven fact. Which is it isn't.
You are often guilty of saying very murky things. The theory of evolution is not a fact, it is an explanation of what is observed in nature which is the fact of evolution. Evolution as a natural mechanism has been observed and used in science to help create medicines like vaccines and antibiotics. It's been used to create better pesticides and herbicides. Evolution is an observed fact. Theories are not called facts.

It's called a theory because it is a theory. In science, a theory either works (elicits predictable results) or it doesn't, within the context of it's testing. If the theory works, it stands as a viable theory, if it doesn't it is rejected as a viable theory. For it to become an accepted truth, as some here seem to be suggesting that it has, it will have to had ALL possible questions springing from it resolved. And in the case of evolution, that very clearly has not happened. As there are still some very big questions left unresolved.
If a hypothesis in science meets the minimum standard of 99.95% then it is considered valid. If it is below then it has failed. Hundreds of thousands of experiments in biology demonstrate evolution is a valid theory in science and has met or exceeded the 99.95% minimum standard. That is extremely high and often difficult to achieve. Many experiments fail. So scientists have to be very careful and precise in how they design experiments, typically to eliminate variables that effect results.

Do you think a conclusion that has met the 99.95% minimum is a weak conclusion and is open for doubts by poorly educated people?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Why is it always about kids? In a world created by evolution, kids are just as much cosmic accidents as the rest of us. If they get sick and die, well it's just survival of the fittest...why should it matter?
The very fact that we care more deeply about children points to a Transcendence that could not exist in a world created by chance.
I know thar naturalism entails that kids can get horrible cancers. For the simple reason that nature is amoral. It does not care, basically. Actually, the ultimate absolute pointlessness of our existence, our love and pain, amid a world without intentional agents driving it, is a direct consequence of ontological naturalism.

But the question is to you, a theist that sees God in nature. Maybe a veiled argument of natural theology. Ergo, a theist that either begs the question by assuming Christianity in the premise, and the differentiation between God design and Sin design, or is forced to admit that he sees God also in kids cancer. For nature is, for the most part, completely dangerous to us.

by the way, assuming that the bad things are really consequence of sin, we have to admit that some look designed with the exact purpose to hurt us. Question to you: who designed them?

ciao

- viole
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Thanks for proving my point. There's no reason we should have emotion or a spirit in a world created by random chance. The fact that we NEED emotion is telling us we are not just animals.
Emotions are the output of the algorithms that drive us. We feel revulsion by things that we should keep away from (just as cows observe a "zone of avoidance" around a pat in the field), we feel love to encourage us to raise offspring that take a long time to reach adulthood, etc.

These algorithms, and their outputs (emotions) are part of the evolved package.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You are often guilty of saying very murky things. The theory of evolution is not a fact, it is an explanation of what is observed in nature which is the fact of evolution. Evolution as a natural mechanism has been observed and used in science to help create medicines like vaccines and antibiotics. It's been used to create better pesticides and herbicides. Evolution is an observed fact. Theories are not called facts.
That life forms can evolve to accommodate conditions is an observable fact. The theory of how and why they have evolved as they have, however, remains a theory. Doesn't the fact that you simply can't admit this give you serious pause for thought? Doesn't the fact that you fight so hard to dismiss and reject any degree of skepticism about evolutionary theory make you feel kind of weird, when skepticism is so essential the the process of science and to empirical thinking? Why, when I dare to suggest that the theory of evolution is quite possibly wrong, or is being over-applied, are you feeling so driven to defend it?
If a hypothesis in science meets the minimum standard of 99.95% then it is considered valid. If it is below then it has failed. Hundreds of thousands of experiments in biology demonstrate evolution is a valid theory in science and has met or exceeded the 99.95% minimum standard. That is extremely high and often difficult to achieve. Many experiments fail. So scientists have to be very careful and precise in how they design experiments, typically to eliminate variables that effect results.
A hypothesis is just an as-yet untested extrapolation of the predictability of a theory. "If theory "X" is accurate, then hypothetically, when we do this, to that, we should get these results". If we did not get the results we expected, then the theory is wrong, or the hypothesis is, or the experimental process is, or some combination is. And if we do get the results we expected, it doesn't mean the theory is right, because it could still be wrong. It just means that the theory stood up as being right under that particular hypothetical expectation, and that particularly designed experiment. And that's why the theory remain a theory.
Do you think a conclusion that has met the 99.95% minimum is a weak conclusion and is open for doubts by poorly educated people?
There are no "conclusions" in science. There are only theories that function as predicted within the context of their hypothesized expectations, and theories that don't. This obsession with "scientific conclusions" is part of the cult of 'scientism', not science.
 
Last edited:

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That life forms can evolve to accommodate conditions is an observable fact. The theory of how and why they have evolved as they have remains a theory, however. Doesn't the fact that you simply can't admit this give you serious pause for thought?

Why do you think he doesn't already believe that? He said, "The theory of evolution is not a fact, it is an explanation of what is observed in nature which is the fact of evolution" and "Evolution is an observed fact. Theories are not called facts."

Why, when I dare to suggest that the theory of evolution is quite possibly wrong, or is being over-applied, are you so driven to defend it?

If you offered no evidence or argument, there is no need to rebut you. If you did, and your argument is flawed, it should be rebutted.

Doesn't the fact that you fight so hard to dismiss and reject any degree of skepticism about evolutionary theory make you feel kind of weird, when skepticism is so essential the the process of science and to empirical thinking?

This is an example of equivocation, or using two words that are spelled and pronounced the same but have different definitions as if they were the same word. Skepticism in empiricism is not the same thing as what the lay person generally means when he calls himself skeptical. The former means one requires compelling, empirical evidence before believing, that is, he is not convinced by a bare claim, whereas the latter that one is not convinced by an argument. This can be either because the argument is unsound and a critical thinker has identified that fact, or because the unconvinced one cannot or will not critically evaluate the argument.

The creationist will often use the word to mean he rejects the argument because it contradicts his faith-based beliefs. He calls himself a skeptic, but he is the opposite of a philosophical skeptic, who needs a compelling argument before believing.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
When a person, who claims to be a religious "believer", makes up stories so as to ignore reality, it not only cheapens them but also their religion/denomination. Fabricating excuses in the name of "God" isn't compatible with a sincere faith in the Truth.

Not only is their more than sufficient evidence to show us that there has been and continues to be an evolutionary process, but also that should stand to just plain old common sense-- all material things appear to change over time, and life forms are material things. Why is this so difficult for some to understand?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
I know thar naturalism entails that kids can get horrible cancers. For the simple reason that nature is amoral. It does not care, basically. Actually, the ultimate absolute pointlessness of our existence, our love and pain, amid a world without intentional agents driving it, is a direct consequence of ontological naturalism.

But the question is to you, a theist that sees God in nature. Maybe a veiled argument of natural theology. Ergo, a theist that either begs the question by assuming Christianity in the premise, and the differentiation between God design and Sin design, or is forced to admit that he sees God also in kids cancer. For nature is, for the most part, completely dangerous to us.

by the way, assuming that the bad things are really consequence of sin, we have to admit that some look designed with the exact purpose to hurt us. Question to you: who designed them?

ciao

- viole
God is dangerous. He is also good. He's only dangerous to those who reject him however.
You ask two different questions. Kids with cancer, or any people with cancer for that matter, are due to the sin curse. The blame is on humans because God created everything perfectly and it could have stayed that way if we had been content with what we were given.
I don't agree that most things in nature are dangerous to us, however. I live closer to nature than most people. I can cut trees to heat my house or if I lived more primitive, my tent or cave or wigwam. I can kill animals for food and find edible plants or grow my own food. Actually only a few things in nature are harmful and many of those are also beneficial if used correctly. A great white shark can kill you, sure, but it's actually quite rare and you can also eat sharks. You can even tan their skin and make a nice set of luggage.
So, yes, God designed or re designed some things to be predators or poison, but he also gives us the intelligence to learn how to use them correctly. God expects us to use what he gave us for good.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
God is dangerous. He is also good. He's only dangerous to those who reject him however.
You ask two different questions. Kids with cancer, or any people with cancer for that matter, are due to the sin curse. The blame is on humans because God created everything perfectly and it could have stayed that way if we had been content with what we were given.

Sorry, but that sounds very much like blaming the victim. Especially when it is a child.

It is also the type of reasoning used by abusive people to justify their abuse.

All this does is makes God evil.

I don't agree that most things in nature are dangerous to us, however. I live closer to nature than most people. I can cut trees to heat my house or if I lived more primitive, my tent or cave or wigwam. I can kill animals for food and find edible plants or grow my own food. Actually only a few things in nature are harmful and many of those are also beneficial if used correctly. A great white shark can kill you, sure, but it's actually quite rare and you can also eat sharks. You can even tan their skin and make a nice set of luggage.

Most places in the universe are not on Earth. The universe is very inhospitable for life in most places.

Even on Earth, most places are dangerous to unlivable for humans. We can't live on mountain tops, or in the deep ocean, for example.

So, yes, God designed or re designed some things to be predators or poison, but he also gives us the intelligence to learn how to use them correctly. God expects us to use what he gave us for good.

Again, that just comes across as the excuses of an abusive partner.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Guess what -- it's those "sudden changes" that are the primary reason for what people call "punctuated evolution." A sudden change in habitat (an earth-quake raises a hill, or re-routes a river) makes habitat changes that must be responded to by those living in the habitat.

An earthquake is not going to have any effect on a major species unless its entire habitat is affected. Animals are known to head for high ground in earth quakes. When they return they pick up right where they left off.
There is another reason, though, too -- unlike what happens geologically, which lays down much quite permanent evidence -- fossilization is in fact extremely rare, requiring very special circumstances. That needs consideration as well.

YES!!! And this is why biologists were fooled. They believed they could look at fossils and just see a gradual change.

It doesn't work this way and science is founded not on evidence but on experiment. Any "theory" founded on "evidence" is merelyt Look and See Science. It's not real. It's a belief that experts have all the answers because they are so smart and they are the experts.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
All of them? Are you certain? Let's see some sources that all patients died.

Why don't you show one where one lived.

That is not an accurate or fair way to characterize them. They had no practical knowledge to base their standards. Of course it was a scientist who used the new microscope to observe microorganisms, and there were tests to see if these caused infections, which they did. Ever since clean hands and instruments were a standard for medical procedures.

Nonsense. If it's true we know everything and surgeons in 1860 also thought they knew everything then it follows they were all idiots with dead patients.

Even the pyramid builders knew about germs. Indeed they healed compound fractures and performed successful brain surgery. They even had a little rocket science but oddly enough they knew they were almost perfectly ignorant.

You don't need a microscope to see germs any more than you need one to see quarks or spin.

Another fantastic claim that needs a source.

What!?!!! You don't believe science now saves every single patient every time?

This is what's amazing!
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
But these are not equal but competing world-views, as you seem to imply.
One is based on observed facts, reason, critical analysis and testing; the other on folklore, mythology and tradition.
Which would you expect to be more robust?

You still seem to think either science or religion must be right.

My contention is that we misinterpret experiment (evidence moreso) and confused ancient knowledge into religion so in effect they are BOTH wrong. On some things religion is more wrong and on others science is more wrong. Neither is truly right about anything at all.

When it comes to the nature and mechanisms for (natural) changes species, religion is far closer to the reality than science. Have you read "numbers" or any other of the books of the Bible that tell you how to live? The "ten commandments" are about "Evolution" but then you can't see that because you believe ibn reductionistic science. The nature of science is to eliminate all beliefs but most modern humans are incapable of functioning without beliefs and models.

This is simply a perspective from outside of beliefs and outside of religion and science which are for most practical purposes are two sides of the exact same (confused) coin.

Science is highly robust for making machines but then where are the antigrav devices the world really needs? Religion is more robust for making some individuals more effective and saner.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
There's the fact of evolution: living things share ancestry and species evolve into new sub-species.
The theory of evolution explains the mechanism of how that happens.

NO!

You are assuming in the first statement that "evolution" is a fact. It is an apparent fact that all current species come from pre-existing species but when you use the term "evolve" you are assuming the conclusion just like Darwin did.

Same with gravity. The fact of gravity is that things with mass exert gravity - the bigger the mass, the bigger the gravity. That's a fact.

This is an observation and apparent fact; it holds true where we've been and where we can see. But to extrapolate this to apply everywhere and everywhen even as we don't understand the mechanism is hubris.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
It's a lot harder to observe a change over 100,000 years, in a laboratory, than it is to observe bacterial evolution over a week.
Evolution can be fast or slow. Both are well evidenced.

If you have experimental evidence (any evidence) for a gradual change then why has nobody ever presented it? Why not just show the evidence and win the argument?
 
Top