Why is evolution even still a debate?

[ElishaElijah]

And I will put forth that my oldest daughter is christian and very religious. She believes in the bible, god, heaven and hell.

The only time I butt heads with her and her husband is when they speak of the man comes first, the woman comes second and the children come third.

I tell them BS! The children should be first.

Well, I here you but if the husband and wife relationship isn’t first then the children won’t be taken care of very well. My children come first after my wife, children are the result of our covenant before God, we made promises and vows before we had children. It shouldn’t be a choice of wife vs children.
When my wife and I are walking as one and harmony in the home is when our children are taken care of the best.

 

[gnostic]

For example the fiat earthers and the ones that think man walked with T-rex(dinosaurs) I just cant understand at all.

In this day and age, it is just ignorance and plain stupidity that any creationists would make such nonsensical claims about dinosaurs and humans.

 

[F1fan]

No, they are actual cells. They are the haploid sage of our life cycle. They are alive.

Basic science.

Yeah, I worded that wrong. But you know what I meant. A long time since basic biology. What was that called, meiosis, mitosis? I need to look it up and refresh.

 

[F1fan]

Do we have to?

Yes. If religious zealots are going to reject science as adequate to explain how nature works, then you'd better offer explanations with the same level of facts and objectivity. Creationisms doesn't, so we throw it out.

Genesis describes how creation came to be, here we are, when we die our bodies return to dust. I don’t have to use the same rules that Science does, I can but I’m a Spirit, Soul and Body so why would I? I know God and this is in the Spirit not a material means that Science can test. Science is blind to the spiritual world. If someone saw a person rise from the dead, science would explain that away, wouldn’t see the spiritual power but only detect the result and explain it away.

None of this is factual or relevant to understanding what is true about reality. Religious people get to believe whatever they want regardless of whether it's true or not. You don't get to present your religious views as if it is true, and that is is on par with science UNLESS you can offer evidence and the method that science uses. The religious do not. So we throw it out.

Science has its own set of rules that tries to explain life, as far as I can tell Science is inadequate at explaining life, all it can do is look at the material things and try to explain but cannot test or know spiritual matters. Cannot determine the origin of life, how we get our consciousness, intellect etc.

So you admit to having very little knowledge about science?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Yes. If religious zealots are going to reject science as adequate to explain how nature works, then you'd better offer explanations with the same level of facts and objectivity. Creationisms doesn't, so we throw it out.

And vice versa, I don’t throw out Science but you threw out God and that’s the problem. You even admit you cannot test Spiritual reality and throw out those spiritual laws.

 

[ppp]

And vice versa, I don’t throw out Science but you threw out God and that’s the problem. You even admit you cannot test Spiritual reality and throw out those spiritual laws.

Which spiritual laws? Which god? Which religion? Yours?

 

[cataway]

That is not a definition.

oh ,what kind are you?

 

[ElishaElijah]

None of this is factual or relevant to understanding what is true about reality. Religious people get to believe whatever they want regardless of whether it's true or not. You don't get to present your religious views as if it is true, and that is is on par with science UNLESS you can offer evidence and the method that science uses. The religious do not. So we throw it out.

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the third day. Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” So the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1-31‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This is the reality of the world we live in, so which of these are you saying is false? Can science explain who created the first components of Creation? No
I’m not bound by the inferior rules of science, very weak and inadequate.

 

[F1fan]

And vice versa, I don’t throw out Science but you threw out God and that’s the problem.

You do throw out valid results in science since you reject evolution.

Or do you accept it now after doing some reading?

You even admit you cannot test Spiritual reality and throw out those spiritual laws.

Theists can't provide any facts that suggest a "spiritual reality" corresponds to anything actually real. I acknowledge that theists believe in some illusory framework, and that illusion is real. It doesn't mean the illusion exists outside of human brains.

And what "spiritual laws" are you referring to? Do you mean religious concepts?

 

[ppp]

oh ,what kind are you?

I don't know what a kind is. No creationist has ever been able to provide an actual definition. In fact, I asked just that on a previous thread:

Creationists - what is the definition of a kind?

STOP!

I did not ask for examples. I asked for a definition. What are the complete list of criteria that I can use to determine if any two random animals are of the same kind/

 

[F1fan]

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the third day. Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” So the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1-31‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This is the reality of the world we live in, so which of these are you saying is false? Can science explain who created the first components of Creation? No
I’m not bound by the inferior rules of science, very weak and inadequate.

This is a religious text, that is all. It's not relevant as a source to explain how things are true in reality.

Let's note that this is a Hebrew text that Christians have taken and interpret in ways that even Jews don't. That Christians interpret it literally while the actual writers of the text do not is a serious flaw in how certain Christians believe.

 

[F1fan]

The Biblical Genesis was written for all people of all ages ...

Do you think it was written for the people of India, and China, and Japan, and other Pacific nations even though they had their own narratives, texts, beliefs, rituals, and religions?

..and as such it fits with evolution as well as saying that God created all things.

The two Genesis myths don't agree with each other, don't agree with evolution, and no Gods are known to exist. So three strikes to finish your post.

 

[ElishaElijah]

This is a religious text, that is all. It's not relevant as a source to explain how things are true in reality.

Let's note that this is a Hebrew text that Christians have taken and interpret in ways that even Jews don't. That Christians interpret it literally while the actual writers of the text do not is a serious flaw in how certain Christians believe.

It is reality as far as our Creator is concerned and again reality of the world we live in.

 

[F1fan]

It is reality as far as our Creator is concerned and again reality of the world we live in.

Except there is no creator known to exist. And the world you live in is one that isn't based on facts and reason, but an adopted religious framework built on tradition and faith. So it carries no authority nor intellectual punch. Sorry.

 

[Audie]

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the third day. Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” So the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1-31‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This is the reality of the world we live in, so which of these are you saying is false? Can science explain who created the first components of Creation? No
I’m not bound by the inferior rules of science, very weak and inadequate.

Which parts are supposed be "reality"?

Things like "day" and " night"?

 

[Father Heathen]

The whole evolution vs creation argument breeds hate and distrust world wide.

The backwaters of the U.S., maybe. World wide? Not really, at least not in developed first-world nations.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You seem to agree with the dichotomy that if evolution is true then Genesis is not.

Assuming that you mean the theory of biological evolution, the two narratives contradict one another in several places such that they cannot both be factual. If Genesis is correct, Darwin was wrong, and vice versa. If animals (kinds) appeared on earth without prior evolution, then Darwin is wrong. If Darwin is correct, the appeared over eons from a last common ancestral cellular population. Both of these did not happen, making one of them incorrect. If you think otherwise, please make the argument that shows that they could both be correct.

Natural selection stopped applying to humans, about 6000 years ago with the invention of written language and the resulting formation of sustainable civilization.

Natural selection never stops applying to any living population even when we find ways to counter some of it. Look at the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations. Both are still being subject to natural selection even though one is artificially immunized. This analogous to overcoming gravity with airplanes. Even if it isn't apparent, gravity never stops acting on the airplane, which then becomes apparent if the engines fail.

Science has its own set of rules that tries to explain life, as far as I can tell Science is inadequate at explaining life, all it can do is look at the material things and try to explain but cannot test or know spiritual matters. Cannot determine the origin of life, how we get our consciousness, intellect etc.

Until science explains them, they will remain unexplained indefinitely. God did it is not an explanation until it can be demonstrated that God exists and did it.

Science has an excellent hypothesis for the advent of life that is presently being fleshed out. We have plenty of evidence that chemistry proceeds without intelligent intervention, and that all of the chemical processes that characterize life conform to those laws. Furthermore, we see nonliving subunits of life such as DNA and ribosomes assembling life without intelligent intervention in any dividing cell. Glycolysis, the Krebs cycle, and oxidative phosphorylation proceed spontaneously in the presence of the necessary nonliving substrates and enzymes. DNA replicates by passively obeying the laws of chemistry.

I have a pretty good scientific explanation of spiritual matters against which there is no evidence. The spiritual experience is a psychological state. There is nothing out there but physical reality being apprehended, with the spiritual flavor added in the head. If one wants to refer to spirits, same answer. There is no evidence that they exist anywhere but in imagination, from which they too are projected onto reality.

 

[cladking]

“Water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. What if someone says, "Well, that's not how I choose to think about water."? All we can do is appeal to scientific values. And if he doesn't share those values, the conversation is over. If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?”

Perhaps water is two parts hydrogen and one part water but we know nothing about any of the parts or what holds them together. Maybe we don't know why they are attracted to the center of the earth and every other molecule or atom in the entire universe. Maybe we know nothing about how these parts came into existence or when and what any individual one has done since. Maybe we don't know how one such molecule differs from another or how even the differences between their electrons. Maybe we don't know what role water plays in any individual's life or consciousness.

Maybe we don't know many quadrillions of times more than what we do know.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's still going on regardless but is not producing any new kinds of life.

That's why we keep saying y'all don't understand. We do see new life happening all around us.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You seem to agree with the dichotomy that if evolution is true then Genesis is not.

Biology isn't the only reason Genesis can't be true.

The Biblical Genesis was written for all people of all ages and as such it fits with evolution as well as saying that God created all things.

Genesis fits nothing of what we know of how the universe, our solar system, and Earth came to be.