Why is faith considered a virtue rather than the curse it really is?

[Katzpur]

I thought I answered it.

No, you didn't. Here it is again: I'm just curious how many children God should let die from sickness and mulnutrition every day. What kind of a number would work for you? And when you've told me that God shouldn't let any children die, would you be so kind as to tell me at what age He should let people die? And by what means?

 

[Copernicus]

No, you didn't. Here it is again: [/font]I'm just curious how many children God should let die from sickness and mulnutrition every day. What kind of a number would work for you? And when you've told me that God shouldn't let any children die, would you be so kind as to tell me at what age He should let people die? And by what means?

Katzpur, God has it within his power to grant all children full, healthy lives that are free of suffering. If the Earth isn't big enough to accommodate the rapidly expanding population, he can either enlarge it or reduce our rate of fertility. My understanding of "omnipotence" is that it means "all-powerful". God is supposed to be able to carry out those kinds of miracles, but he doesn't.

 

[Copernicus]

So god prefers to punish the great great grand children of the sinner, and those related to the sinner by species alone, as opposed to the sinner directly? Sounds like a bit of an @55h0|3!

Unfortunately, the Old Testament does explicitly teach that progeny are responsible for the behavior of their ancestors. This also seems to be the teaching of the doctrine of Original Sin that formed to basis for the human sacrifice of the Crucifixion. I cannot say whether most people of faith take that doctrine to heart in modern times. Most Christians that I have known seem not to.

 

[sonofskeptish]

Unfortunately, the Old Testament does explicitly teach that progeny are responsible for the behavior of their ancestors. This also seems to be the teaching of the doctrine of Original Sin that formed to basis for the human sacrifice of the Crucifixion. I cannot say whether most people of faith take that doctrine to heart in modern times. Most Christians that I have known seem not to.

You know that saying "The more people I meet the more I like my cat"... well the more I'm told about this God guy, the more I like that Satan chap.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur, God has it within his power to grant all children full, healthy lives that are free of suffering. If the Earth isn't big enough to accommodate the rapidly expanding population, he can either enlarge it or reduce our rate of fertility. My understanding of "omnipotence" is that it means "all-powerful". God is supposed to be able to carry out those kinds of miracles, but he doesn't.

So we're all supposed to live to the age of what? And die from what? And after that, what?

All you're saying is that the God you don't believe exists doesn't operate the way you think He should.

 

[Copernicus]

So we're all supposed to live to the age of what? And die from what? And after that, what?

My choice would be to live a happy, healthy life forever. Why does there need to be suffering and death? The fact that there is suffering and death is a serious problem for believers, because they have to come up with a good story for why God lets it happen. Many people who lose their faith lose it over this single issue. That's why apologists have developed an extensive theodicy.

All you're saying is that the God you don't believe exists doesn't operate the way you think He should.

I would put it differently. I am saying that the God you do believe exists doesn't operate the way I think he should. It isn't my burden to justify his behavior. Death and suffering are consistent with my belief that there are no gods.

 

[madhatter85]

My choice would be to live a happy, healthy life forever. Why does there need to be suffering and death? The fact that there is suffering and death is a serious problem for believers, because they have to come up with a good story for why God lets it happen. Many people who lose their faith lose it over this single issue. That's why apologists have developed an extensive theodicy.



I would put it differently. I am saying that the God you do believe exists doesn't operate the way I think he should. It isn't my burden to justify his behavior. Death and suffering are consistent with my belief that there are no gods.

You can never truly appreciate happiness having known no sorrow. nor can you appreciate eternal life not having known death.

 

[Copernicus]

You can never truly appreciate happiness having known no sorrow...

How can you possibly know that? Besides, we aren't just talking about sorrow here. In many cases, it is about excruciating, intolerable pain. And don't forget that the pain is not evenly distributed across all of us. Do you think that those who have suffered the most are really luckier than those of us who have not? That makes no sense at all.

...nor can you appreciate eternal life not having known death.

Nonsense. I truly appreciate life, and that is without having experienced death. Death is nothing but permanent loss of consciousness.

 

[Boethiah]

Faith isn't necessarily the problem. Faith is blamed by many of those without faith as the root of the world's problems. Many wars are caused by religion, true. Many atrocities have been committed in the name of God. From a secular standpoint, a secular person would not agree that God told those who committed such acts to do so, because from a secular person's standpoint, God does not exist, yes? So, it is often leaders who rally people against a group. Leaders who manipulated peoples faith to do things.

This does not take the blame away from those people. They still have their responsibility for committing such acts. But, the faith itself is not the underlying factor. If faith was taken away, wars would not cease. There are a plethora of other aspects of humanity that can be manipulated.

In my humble opinion, I claim that it is not faith that is the underlying problem. It is intolerance and hate, which is propagated by those who's words have sway with the people. The people buy the message. This is a reason why we have such hate and intolerance today. People buy messages from their leaders to hate because they are not educated.

Abdul Baha once said (and I don't know the quote word for word so please forgive me) that "When religion ceases to unify, then it is better off that religion doesn't exist at all".

Having faith in God(s) is good and fine as long as it does not become violent. I heard Barack Obama say in one of his speeches (I do not know which one, and I do not know it word for word so please forgive me again) that "There is an alarming trend to prove ones own faith by denouncing someone else's".

Faith can be a curse, but only if it is used in the wrong way. Having faith in God peacefully is very beneficial. It provides hope for a person, among other things.

To call faith, or even religion, a curse is severely generalizing most of the world, not to mention a much bigger issue.

 

[madhatter85]

How can you possibly know that? Besides, we aren't just talking about sorrow here. In many cases, it is about excruciating, intolerable pain. And don't forget that the pain is not evenly distributed across all of us. Do you think that those who have suffered the most are really luckier than those of us who have not? That makes no sense at all.

I said nothing of lucky. I said appreciative. Yes, those who have suffered are definitely more appreciative of the "good times."

Nonsense. I truly appreciate life, and that is without having experienced death. Death is nothing but permanent loss of consciousness.

The only reason you appreciate life is because you know you will die at some point unbeknownst to you.

 

[Quagmire]

Also today many of us still believe and worship a God who lets 18000 children die from sickness and malnutrition every single day of the year.

God lets that happen? I thought it was us.

Presently we can also see what God thinks of the poorest people in the western hemisphere!

God made enough for everybody.

I wonder what He thinks of a society that comprises %5 of the worlds population and consumes %20 of it's resources.

At what point should we start wondering if this supernatural deity, full of love and good will, actually exists?

At what point should we start taking responsibility for the part we play in all this?


Consider one night on the town:

Dinner?
$40

Movie & refreshments?
$30

Gas to & from + parking?
$8

Nightcap at the bar or coffee shop afterwards?
$6

Total:
$84

Letting 3 kids starve to death this month that could have been saved with this money and then blaming it on a deity that you don't even believe exists?

Priceless

 

[challupa]

God lets that happen? I thought it was us.



God made enough for everybody.

I wonder what He thinks of a society that comprises %5 of the worlds population and consumes %20 of it's resources.



At what point should we start taking responsibility for the part we play in all this?


Consider one night on the town:

Dinner?
$40

Movie & refreshments?
$30

Gas to & from + parking?
$8

Nightcap at the bar or coffee shop afterwards?
$6

Total:
$84

Letting 3 kids starve to death this month that could have been saved with this money and then blaming it on a deity that you don't even believe exists?

Priceless

While I see what you are getting at here, I think you are making a few assumptions that may not be right. How do you know that Skeptisch doesn't donate money to help?

 

[Quagmire]

While I see what you are getting at here, I think you are making a few assumptions that may not be right. How do you know that Skeptisch doesn't donate money to help?

I'm not talking about Skeptisch in particular, just addressing his point; he's suggesting that the fact that there are starving people in the world is God's fault, I'm saying it's our fault.

The Bible (to use one example) doesn't say anything about Him owing us (humankind) anything. It talks in great detail about what we owe each other.

Therefore, trying to use all the starving people in the world as evidence against God, or even against the validity of the Abrahamic religions, doesn't work.

 

[challupa]

I'm not talking about Skeptisch in particular, just addressing his point; he's suggesting that the fact that there are starving people in the world is God's fault, I'm saying it's our fault.

The Bible (to use one example) doesn't say anything about Him owing us (humankind) anything. It talks in great detail about what we owe each other.

Therefore, trying to use all the starving people in the world as evidence against God, or even against the validity of the Abrahamic religions, doesn't work.

Okay thanks!

 

[Katzpur]

My choice would be to live a happy, healthy life forever.

You want to live on this earth forever? Do you have any idea how long that is?

Why does there need to be suffering and death? The fact that there is suffering and death is a serious problem for believers, because they have to come up with a good story for why God lets it happen. Many people who lose their faith lose it over this single issue. That's why apologists have developed an extensive theodicy.

Anybody who loses his faith over this issue never had any faith in the first place. You know, I really wish I had never commented on this thread. Every single solitary time I try to communicate with an atheist on the subject of God's purposes for running the world His way, I just get frustrated. It's a losing battle. The converation just goes around and around and around and around and around. Ya know what I'm saying?

I'm outta here, and it's not because I don't have an answer. It's just not an answer that will convince someone who is convinced there is no God. It's just not worth my time to beat dead-end topics into the ground.

 

[Copernicus]

I said nothing of lucky. I said appreciative. Yes, those who have suffered are definitely more appreciative of the "good times."

By your logic, those of us who end up being tortured to death are ultimately better off in the afterlife for the experience. Sorry, but I cannot buy that.

The only reason you appreciate life is because you know you will die at some point unbeknownst to you.

Nonsense. I know what gives me pleasure in life and what does not. The prospect of death is not one of those things that gives me pleasure.

 

[Copernicus]

You want to live on this earth forever? Do you have any idea how long that is?

As long as the afterlife is in heaven? Have I got that right? :angel2:

Anybody who loses his faith over this issue never had any faith in the first place. You know, I really wish I had never commented on this thread. Every single solitary time I try to communicate with an atheist on the subject of God's purposes for running the world His way, I just get frustrated. It's a losing battle. The converation just goes around and around and around and around and around. Ya know what I'm saying?

Of course. We all get frustrated with each other, but we must all remember that no one forces us to engage in these dialogues. For myself, I can say that I find the responses of people I interact with interesting, even when I do disagree with them. As for people who lose their faith over the problem of suffering, I would recommend Bart Ehrman's God's Problem. Ehrman is another apostate Christian, albeit he shies away from calling himself an "atheist". If you give it a chance, I think you'll find it an enlightening take on the subject of the Bible and the problem of human suffering. He is a Christian who claims to have lost faith over this issue.

I'm outta here, and it's not because I don't have an answer. It's just not an answer that will convince someone who is convinced there is no God. It's just not worth my time to beat dead-end topics into the ground.

Sorry that we wore you down. :sorry1:

 

[Katzpur]

As long as the afterlife is in heaven? Have I got that right? :angel2:

Yes, but it's Heaven, but not the kind of Heaven you're picturing when you say it doesn't appeal to you.

Of course. We all get frustrated with each other, but we must all remember that no one forces us to engage in these dialogues. For myself, I can say that I find the responses of people I interact with interesting, even when I do disagree with them. As for people who lose their faith over the problem of suffering, I would recommend Bart Ehrman's God's Problem. Ehrman is another apostate Christian, albeit he shies away from calling himself an "atheist". If you give it a chance, I think you'll find it an enlightening take on the subject of the Bible and the problem of human suffering. He is a Christian who claims to have lost faith over this issue.

I've read some of Ehrman. I've got his book, "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture." He brings up some good points, but I find him difficult to read. At any rate, he obviously sees the problem of suffering from a different perspective than I do.

Sorry that we wore you down. :sorry1:

Well, you didn't -- at least not in this thread alone. I just get the feeling that I'm sounding like a broken record. (You've got to be old for that to make sense.) I have just said the same thing so many times that it's getting to be tiresome. Anyway, y'all enjoy yourselves.

 

[Copernicus]

Yes, but it's not the kind of Heaven you apparently have no desire to experience.

Katzpur, why would you say such a thing? Who wouldn't want to live forever in eternal bliss? Just because I don't believe in Santa Claus, that doesn't mean that I don't want anyone to give me Christmas presents.

I've read some of Ehrman. I've got his book, "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture." He brings up some good points, but I find him difficult to read. At any rate, he obviously sees the problem of suffering from a different perspective than I do.

I read the book, and I really learned a lot about scripture. He is, after all, the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor and Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. I haven't read any of his other books. In fact, this one had a great deal to say about the story of Job that I found fascinating.

Well, you didn't -- at least not in this thread alone. I just get the feeling that I'm sounding like a broken record. (You've got to be old for that to make sense.) I have just said the same thing so many times that it's getting to be tiresome. Anyway, y'all enjoy yourselves.

You, too. I enjoy your posts.

 

[sonofskeptish]

I'm not talking about Skeptisch in particular, just addressing his point; he's suggesting that the fact that there are starving people in the world is God's fault, I'm saying it's our fault.

The Bible (to use one example) doesn't say anything about Him owing us (humankind) anything. It talks in great detail about what we owe each other.

Therefore, trying to use all the starving people in the world as evidence against God, or even against the validity of the Abrahamic religions, doesn't work.

I think Skep is making the point there is no personal God.