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Why is hell eternal?
- Thread starter Jollybear
- Start date
Well thank heaven for that....
Oh dear....
Earth to Jollybear...come in please.....They aren't literal people so they are not literally dead. Am I getting through?The conversation is figurative. I am beginning to worry about you....
Yes...in a vision. The apostles were privy to a conversation that was part of a vision. The cloud engulfed the trio and they were gone...portal closed.
You seem to be leaving God out of a lot of your assumptions here. It is God who reveals his truth to people. No one can come to accept the son without an invitation from the Father. (John 6:44) Not just anyone can read the Bible and "get it". That is obvious from all the different denominations in Christendom. They can't all be right as my brother has said...but they could all be wrong.
There is one truth...only one, and no one finds it without God. If people have their own ideas and they hear the truth and deny it, God will allow them to believe whatever they like....but it will not lead them to life. Satan will be cheering them on.
Paul wrote...."But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) This is a "cap fits" kinda thing.
Just calling yourself a Christian doesn't make you one, as we see from Jesus words to those who acknowledge him as "Lord" in the final judgement.....“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23)
His rejection is stinging and unbelievable to those who thought that they were true Christians.....but he says he NEVER knew them...which means he has NOT EVER recognized them as his own.
You didn't answer my question.....what is meditation for a Christians?......hint: it isn't what most people believe it is. It is nothing like the meditation practiced in Eastern religions....not even close.
Satan has had thousands of years to perfect his craft...believe me, he knows more about us than we do. But to counter that God has had his word to guide his people for thousands of years as well. If we are overtaken by satan, then we strayed from the path that God told us not to leave.
“Your own ears will hear a word behind you saying: ‘This is the way. Walk in it, you people,’ in case you people should go to the right or in case you should go to the left.” (ISAIAH 30:21)
And God does not hold anyone accountable for being 'deceived'.....that is because the deception is usually invited and relished by those who can easily research what is acceptable to God and what isn't. If you dabble in spiritism of any kind, you have severed your relationship with God already and invited the demons in for a vacation.
I believe that NDE's can be the result of things that have nothing to do with God.
Jollybear
Hey
Well thank heaven for that....
Oh dear....
The conversation is figurative. I am beginning to worry about you....
Ok, let me shed more light on my point on the word parable. Even though both of us dont believe in mythological stories, i think we both could agree that mythological stories serve the same purpose a parable would, in that they both convey a spiritual truth, or convey a comparable message. However, the difference between mythology and a parable is that mythology the CONTENT is pure fiction, totally made up, it has no basis in reality, whilst a parable the content is NOT fiction, IT IS based in reality, its not made up in the sense that myth is. Can we agree there?
Now that said. Look at one of Jesus known parables in mathew 13:3-4 "Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed,"
Do you see the content here? Its clearly not mythology because there wer actual farmers who scattered actual seeds. And noticed how Jesus phrased it? He did not say 'suppose there was a farmer', but in fact he said "a farmer went" and "as he WAS scattering". You see? Even though Jesus was not teaching about farming, he was teaching via comparison the kingdom of God. But, he used REAL things to compare the kingdom too. Where did he get this content? He saw and learned it from the real world around him that he lived.
Now, back to the ritch man/lazarus. Luke 16:19
"THERE WAS a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and LIVED in luxury every day. 20At his gate WAS laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs CAME and licked his sores.
22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and WAS buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
So, help me understand, is this a mythological story in content or is it a parable in content?
So, this vision seams to be like a halagram of moses and elijah with a recording of them talking with jesus in the way you describe. Is that what your saying? Just trying to understand.
I think there all wrong AND all right at the same time. Some things they got wrong, some things they got right. Hence, all wrong and all right. And me, i sift tjrough it all to figure out what they all got right and wrong, and i throw out the wrong and keep the right, so, tjat makes me right in absolutely everything i believe, lol.
Now, i still keep an open mind and proof of that is i have changed some of my views over the years.
God designed everyones mind with the ability to critically think. So, if a person chooses to exercise that skill, they can come to truth on ANY subject matter, not only religious or spiritual.
Look at the words "they took pleasure in unrightiousness" thats not just purely being decieved there. And having a NDE or OBE is that really UNRIGHTIOUS? Because how does it HARM you or anyone?
I know the bible talks of meditating as in THINK on the word. But, transcendental meditation i dont believe is condemned by the bible. Isaac went out to the field and meditated, but he surely did not have a bible to meditate on. Genesis 24:63.
Ive researched religious and spiritual things since ive been age 14, im 39 right now and yet ive come to some different conclusions then you. And i certainly dont relish in inviting deception. In fact, the thought of being decieved angers me DEEPLY.
Ok, torch back to you.
Prometheus85
Active Member
1st off you don’t get to ask me for proof, because I’m not the one making outrageous claims. This was never about who’s lying or telling the truth. That’s just a deflection technique that u do so you won’t have to explain your outrageous claims. This is about how you came to the conclusion that NDE testimonials confirms that an afterlife exist. Simple saying there’s to many to NDE is not an adequate answer. There has been a tremendous amount of research into OBE and NDE neither of which have reproducibly produced any evidence that there is an afterlife. And you bring up veridical perception...well
Every night, I talk to dead people and I fly through space, and I call it dreaming.
Prometheus85
Active Member
So @Jollybear how are NDE’s evidence for an afterlife?
What did Jews understand this parable to mean? According to Jewish belief, there was no consciousness in "Sheol" ("hades" in Greek) so this wasn't based on a false belief....it was clearly symbolic. For Jews, this parable was not related to a heaven or hell scenario....because they didn't have one. If you read it with a false Christian interpretation, you will see a completely different story. One promoted by the devil who benefits from promoting his lies regarding death.
Yep, that was a very simple one. Yet what about the time Jesus spoke about eating his flesh and drinking his blood? How did the Jews react to that speech? How did the apostles react? (John 6:48-69) Was it to be taken as literal or figurative?
If it was to be taken literally (as the Catholic church does) it would be breaking God's law. Jesus would never do that.
This is just rehashing. I have explained all this. There is nothing in this parable that deals with heaven and hell. Jesus' Jewish audience would never have thought it did. Its an apostate "Christian" doctrine that dishonors God by making him into a fiend who enjoys torturing people just for the sake of it. That is repugnant IMO.
In Jeremiah 7:31 Jehovah said of unfaithful Israel....."And they have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart."
If he condemned the Israelites for burning their children in the fire, why on earth would he turn around and do the same thing himself?
Some illustrations were hard to understand, whilst others were relatively simple. But here is an interesting bit of insight on this.....
Matthew 13:10-11.....
"So the disciples came and said to him: “Why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” 11 In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted."
Those who needed to understand, were granted that understanding. Those who didn't ended up scratching their heads sometimes.
We have no idea how it was presented....but we do know that it was a vision because Jesus said so......it was collectively seen by all three of the apostles. They heard the conversation...but trying to put it into a human context is pointless.....it was a supernatural event, brought about by supernatural means. Our understanding is limited by our human experience.
God can never provide something that is half wrong. His truth is not contaminated by falsehood. It is humans who muddy the waters with their own ideas, influenced by the unseen powers that operate all around us in satan's world. (1 John 5:19)
I am left wondering what you think they got right?
This is good. But doesn't it demonstrate the human propensity to believe something until evidence is produced to the contrary? Our beliefs can be in a constant stare of change and confusion. The truth never leaves one confused. It provides solid answers that never change.....because God doesn't change. Increased understanding may broaden our view, but it shouldn't change any basic truth.
True. But critical thinking in itself is no guarantee of truth. Look how many critical thinkers have accepted evolution because they think science has proven it.....its all smoke and mirrors because when you examine their evidence, you find that it is based on assumption and guesswork....not fact. Its hollow...there is no real substance.
A lot of what Christendom teaches appears harmless.....but it is like poisoned candy. It might taste good going down, but it could make you sick enough to kill you. (spiritually speaking)
Take the festivals that Christendom has embraced and tell me if you think Jesus celebrated them...? They were all adopted from paganism and given a thin "Christian" veneer so that the pagan subjects of Rome would embrace the new faith. Like waifs with no parents, Christendom dressed these festivals up and changed their name and made them into holidays. (holy days)
Do you think God approves of them? (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
Like King David, the earlier servants of God meditated on God's creation and his activities. It required filling the mind with thoughts of God.
Transcendental meditation OTOH is the very opposite....an emptying of the mind....like cleaning a house ready for some new tenants.(Matthew 12:43-45) You just have to be careful about who moves in....
It should anger anyone if they find out that they have been deceived. I left Christendom in my early twenties and I have been a JW now for 46 years. I am a perpetual student because I never stop learning. I left the church system because it never rang true for me. I could never make the pieces fit. None of my questions were answered from the Bible in a satisfying way.....but when I studied the Bible for myself with JW's, all the answers came with no confusion. It was like someone lifted a veil from my eyes and I could see the big picture for the first time. It made me hungry for more.....I have never lost my appetite.
That was my experience, and it has been the experience of many others. I found my spiritual home. I hope your spiritual journey is successful.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe eternity is a measure of time. If there is no time then there is no eternity. There is no time in Hell because there is no way to measure it ie sun, moon, stars.
Jollybear
Hey
We have discussed veridical NDEs countless times in the past and you constantly misrepresent what they are.
Bravo.
Veridical NDEs are the evidence. They rule out halucination. And, i believe the folks who testify are telling the truth pertaining to those veridical NDEs.
Jollybear
Hey
ALL jews believed the same regarding an afterlife? https://reformjudaism.org/blog/2012/05/10/do-jews-believe-afterlife
Is There a Jewish Afterlife? | My Jewish Learning
When Jesus talked about eating his fles and drinking his blood, yes, he was speaking figuratively, BUT HE HIMSELF stated in the same chapter that it was figuratively by saying his words wer spirit and life. In the case of the ritch man and lazarus he never said that. Plus, the way the story of the rich mans is layed out is different then the layout of jesus saying eat his flesh.
Exactly, thats why i dont believe hell is forever, because God dont enjoy torturing people. However, i do believe its temporary. And its not physical torture. Its mental and emotional. And more like a purgatory. Some get redeemed out and some get destroyed.
Jollybear
Hey
Vision can simply mean sight or spectacle. The word jesus used was here New Testament Greek - StudyLight.org
So, with there sight, there eyes, there vision, they saw moses and elijah and they talked to jesus.
I meant all religions with there many branches. I didnt mean the bible. I agree God dont have half truths.
The truth is real whether we believe or understand it or not.
Hence, theres no TRUE critical thinking going on. True and honest critical thinking will gaurentee to lead you to truth, or at a minimum lead you to a fork in the road.
It only harms depending on what the ACTION is, not a mentel assent.
The meditation for OBEs involves simply exercising the imagination, not emptying the mind. But of course as you focus imagining having a OBE, while relaxed, your mind is not focused on what youl have for dinner.
I noticed you said studied the scriptures WITH JW.
I think its best to study the scriptures with just OURSELF, that will lead to no indoctrination from a interpretive paradigm from any organization.
Sorry for the delay in responding...been bust elsewhere...
From your link....regrading what happens after we die...it says..."
"Judaism is famously ambiguous about this matter. The immortality of the soul, the World to Come, and the resurrection of the dead all feature prominently in Jewish tradition, but the logistics of what these things are and how they relate to each other has always been vague....
Jewish conceptions of heaven and hell — Gan Eden (Garden of Eden) and Gehinnom — are associated with the belief in immortality and/or the World to Come, and were also developed independent of these concepts.
Most Jewish ideas about the afterlife developed in post-biblical times."
Do you see what I see? Jews developed their ideas about "immortality of the soul and the world to come" "in post Biblical times". IOW, these ideas came long after the Bible was written....and they did not come from God's word, but from Jewish tradition, which was what Jesus castigated the Pharisees for...clinging to their tradition, rather than to scripture.
The rich man and Lazarus as a parable is surrounded by other parables in previous and following chapters......why single it out as if its is somehow different to all the others? It says plainly in the Bible that Jesus spoke in parables or illustration so that his audience might get the sense of what he was saying, but it also demonstrates that not all understood some of them anyway.
OK, I suppose I need to ask you which "hell" is not forever? There are other words translated or understood to relate to "hell" so which one do you mean? There is "sheol" "hades" "gehenna" "Tartarus" "the lake of fire"....what do these words mean in their original languages?
Jesus made reference to "gehenna" and that was to be permanent....a place where souls are "destroyed", not tortured. (Matthew 10:28) "Hades" OTOH is emptied of its dead. (Revelation 20:13-15) "Tartarus" is the 'prison' that restrained the demons after the flood. (2 Peter 2:4) "The lake of fire" it says "means the second death"...so in order to understand the second death, we must understand the first death and how they correlate. So you see lumping all these terms into one definition is misleading.
Those in "sheol" "hades" "Gehenna" and the "lake of fire" are not conscious, therefore there is no suffering. You have to have consciousness to suffer. The torment that the Pharisees received was through Jesus' stinging rebukes.
Yes, it was a vision shared by just three apostles....a vision is not a dream that simply takes place in someone's mind. This was a portal opened up to show these three a privilege not granted to the others....it certainly was a sight or a spectacle.
Critical thinking is different for everyone....they exercise the 'criticalness' of their thinking within the parameters of what is acceptable in their belief system...or lack of it. A fork in the road only adds to the confusion. Only God can illuminate the right road to the right people.
There is physical harm, mental harm, emotional harm and spiritual harm....which is more damaging?
If we accept what God rejects because we find it personally appealing, then what do you imagine the outcome to be?
In 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, Paul states that if we want to be accepted as sons and daughters of the Almighty, then we better not take on beliefs and practices that were not endorsed by Jesus.
What is the point of doing it? Was it something recommended by Jesus in any of his teachings? The only meditation recommended for God's people is 'ruminating' on God's word and Christ's teachings. Not emptying the mind, but filling it with spiritual thoughts.
I was part of Christendom's church system for the first 20 years of my life. They never explained the scriptures to me because the questions I had were not answerable by the ones who should have known the answers. JW's were the last people I ever expected to have anything remotely interesting to teach me.....the questions I asked them were the same questions I had asked my minister and others, but out came the Bible and they answered every question....and continued to do so. None of their answers fought with other scripture. I saw a big picture where all the pieces finally finally fitted...without tap-dancing.
In the scriptures we are not left to poke about in the dark and come to our own conclusions. We are provided with human teachers as God has always done. The problem for us is that the devil will provide teachers too....so in response to all that confusion, many have decided to teach themselves.....all I can say is that the truth never comes to anyone that way....it never has. You just end up with individuals as confused and divided as the various denominations are.
God provides the teachers, just as he has always done....he has a people (just one) who worship him in truth.....it is up to us to find them. If we are sincere God will guide us. (John 6:44)
From your link....regrading what happens after we die...it says..."
"Judaism is famously ambiguous about this matter. The immortality of the soul, the World to Come, and the resurrection of the dead all feature prominently in Jewish tradition, but the logistics of what these things are and how they relate to each other has always been vague....
Jewish conceptions of heaven and hell — Gan Eden (Garden of Eden) and Gehinnom — are associated with the belief in immortality and/or the World to Come, and were also developed independent of these concepts.
Most Jewish ideas about the afterlife developed in post-biblical times."
Do you see what I see? Jews developed their ideas about "immortality of the soul and the world to come" "in post Biblical times". IOW, these ideas came long after the Bible was written....and they did not come from God's word, but from Jewish tradition, which was what Jesus castigated the Pharisees for...clinging to their tradition, rather than to scripture.
The rich man and Lazarus as a parable is surrounded by other parables in previous and following chapters......why single it out as if its is somehow different to all the others? It says plainly in the Bible that Jesus spoke in parables or illustration so that his audience might get the sense of what he was saying, but it also demonstrates that not all understood some of them anyway.
OK, I suppose I need to ask you which "hell" is not forever? There are other words translated or understood to relate to "hell" so which one do you mean? There is "sheol" "hades" "gehenna" "Tartarus" "the lake of fire"....what do these words mean in their original languages?
Jesus made reference to "gehenna" and that was to be permanent....a place where souls are "destroyed", not tortured. (Matthew 10:28) "Hades" OTOH is emptied of its dead. (Revelation 20:13-15) "Tartarus" is the 'prison' that restrained the demons after the flood. (2 Peter 2:4) "The lake of fire" it says "means the second death"...so in order to understand the second death, we must understand the first death and how they correlate. So you see lumping all these terms into one definition is misleading.
Those in "sheol" "hades" "Gehenna" and the "lake of fire" are not conscious, therefore there is no suffering. You have to have consciousness to suffer. The torment that the Pharisees received was through Jesus' stinging rebukes.
Yes, it was a vision shared by just three apostles....a vision is not a dream that simply takes place in someone's mind. This was a portal opened up to show these three a privilege not granted to the others....it certainly was a sight or a spectacle.
Critical thinking is different for everyone....they exercise the 'criticalness' of their thinking within the parameters of what is acceptable in their belief system...or lack of it. A fork in the road only adds to the confusion. Only God can illuminate the right road to the right people.
There is physical harm, mental harm, emotional harm and spiritual harm....which is more damaging?
If we accept what God rejects because we find it personally appealing, then what do you imagine the outcome to be?
In 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, Paul states that if we want to be accepted as sons and daughters of the Almighty, then we better not take on beliefs and practices that were not endorsed by Jesus.
What is the point of doing it? Was it something recommended by Jesus in any of his teachings? The only meditation recommended for God's people is 'ruminating' on God's word and Christ's teachings. Not emptying the mind, but filling it with spiritual thoughts.
I was part of Christendom's church system for the first 20 years of my life. They never explained the scriptures to me because the questions I had were not answerable by the ones who should have known the answers. JW's were the last people I ever expected to have anything remotely interesting to teach me.....the questions I asked them were the same questions I had asked my minister and others, but out came the Bible and they answered every question....and continued to do so. None of their answers fought with other scripture. I saw a big picture where all the pieces finally finally fitted...without tap-dancing.
In the scriptures we are not left to poke about in the dark and come to our own conclusions. We are provided with human teachers as God has always done. The problem for us is that the devil will provide teachers too....so in response to all that confusion, many have decided to teach themselves.....all I can say is that the truth never comes to anyone that way....it never has. You just end up with individuals as confused and divided as the various denominations are.
God provides the teachers, just as he has always done....he has a people (just one) who worship him in truth.....it is up to us to find them. If we are sincere God will guide us. (John 6:44)
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Jollybear
Hey
I didnt forget our convo here. I was just debating on the thread the resurection.
Ill respond soon though.
Lol! That is funny the way it’s worded! I like it.
Too bad the translator chose to substitute “Hell” for Ge*en’na. (Most do.)
Hell should only be used for the Hebrew ‘She’ol’ and the Greek ‘Hades’.....which is “grave” in many versions.
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ajay0
Well-Known Member
Hell similar to christianity is mentioned in Buddhism and Hinduism, but it is not of an eternal nature.
When your bad karmas are exhausted you get a new chance. Similalry heaven is also of a temporary nature as well.
It is enlightenment as in Nirvana that is more of a permanent nature, and is considered superior to the pleasures of heaven.
Yogananda's 'Autobiography of a Yogi' states them to be astral worlds and so on.
When your bad karmas are exhausted you get a new chance. Similalry heaven is also of a temporary nature as well.
It is enlightenment as in Nirvana that is more of a permanent nature, and is considered superior to the pleasures of heaven.
Yogananda's 'Autobiography of a Yogi' states them to be astral worlds and so on.
I believe it, because Bible tells so.
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:43
stvdv
Veteran Member
The Koran version gets closer to my version = Hell exists for 0 seconds. It exists only in the mind of the people who believe in it
"HELL" is just another word for the grave. Hell in that context is indeed eternal, since death itself is eternal....there is no coming back, and except for some ramblings of a couple sheep-herders, NO ONE has ever come back from the grave. When that
"curtain comes down", there are NO encores of any kind.