Why is hell eternal?

[Jollybear]

In this world we know time, but in the world to come there is no time, and once you go into this timeless realm you are fixed in an in an unchangeable state, in this life sinners are mutable, but in the world to come both Sinners and Saints are immutable and time is no more. ( Sinners and Saints are not immutable in eternity in the same sense that God is immutable they will be able to increase in knowledge and understanding, Sinners and Saints will know more and more of the majesty and glory of God throughout the ceaseless ages of Eternity)

Revelation 10:6 "...that there should be time no longer:"

Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

If a sinner will know more and more of Gods glory through eternity, how is that possible if there seperated from God?

And if it is possible, why learn this if theres no redemptive purpose to it?

And how can they be truely immutable IF there learning?

 

[Earthling]

I believe the Bible teaches Hell so I believe you are interpreting things from man's viewpoint instead of God's viewpoint.

“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2, p. 187) says: “HADES . . . It corresponds to ‘Sheol’ in the O.T. [Old Testament]. In the A.V. of the O.T. [Old Testament] and N.T. [New Testament], it has been unhappily rendered ‘Hell.’”

Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says concerning “Hell”: “First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.”

 

[Deeje]

Ok, your turn.

OK then.

When it says the dead know nothing, there thoughts parish. Its refering to there body/brain activity.

Yes it is. The brain is inextricably linked to consciousness. But there is nothing in the Bible to argue with that. The Jews did not believe in a separate part of us that departs the body at death. There are no disembodied souls in the Bible. The spirit realm is only inhabited by spirit beings....God and his angels, not former humans. None of the angels were born as humans because they were all created to live in heaven long before humans were created to live on earth. In both realms, everlasting life was to be enjoyed.

Here are some verses id like you to interpret for me that for me appear that a soul remains concious after death.

John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

This is the promise of Jesus to his anointed ones. Because a limited number of humans were going to be taken to heaven to rule with Christ, he said he was going to prepare a place for them. Then he said he was going to come back for them, but not until his Kingdom was established.

The apostle Paul wrote.....
"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)

So no one was to go to heaven until Jesus came back for them.

Luke 16:1-15 rich man and lazarus story. Ritch man TALKING IN hell.

That was a parable, not something to be taken literally. Actually if it was taken literally, it is rather ridiculous. Do you think heaven and hell are within speaking distance to one another? And do you think that a drop of water on the end of someone's finger could cool the tongue of a person in flames? Does the parable say anything about the rich man other than that he was rich? And does it say that the beggar was righteous...or just impoverished?

It is a parable about the Pharisees and the "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent. Their 'deaths' signified a change in status. The Pharisees lost "the bosom of Abraham" (a position signifying God's favor) and it was gained by the lost ones who accepted Jesus as Messiah.The anguish of the rich man was because of Jesus' exposing them for the hypocrites that they were. (Matthew 23:13-33)

Mathew 17:1-8 moses and elijah appear to jesus and his apostles and TALKED to jesus.

This was a vision according to Jesus. It wasn't literally Elijah and Moses speaking to Jesus. He had made a statement that some among his apostles would not taste death until they saw him in his Kingdom. The transfiguration was a vision of Jesus in his kingdom glory. (Matthew 17:9) God's kingdom is founded on the Law and the Prophets, so I see in the transfiguration, Jesus as King, Elijah representing the prophets and Moses representing the Law. Peter James and John received a rare privilege.

2 corinthians 5:1-8 paul talking about the body as a tent and wanting to be away from it and be with the Lord.

As one of the anointed, (with the "heavenly calling") Paul, like all the other anointed ones, eagerly look forward to shedding their earthbound, sinful fleshly bodies and taking on the immortal spiritual bodies with which they will rule with Christ in heaven.

Everything is perfectly explainable when you know the truth.

Back to you....

 

[Buddha Dharma]

In your view, what IS hell?

I believe there may be hell realms that are temporary rebirth destinations. I believe the same about several paradises.

 

[Milton Platt]

Why do you believe hell is eternal and not temporary?

Because the people who invented it defined it that way?

 

[Desert Snake]

You lost me. Explain more.

Hell is eternal

 

[Jollybear]

OK then.



Yes it is. The brain is inextricably linked to consciousness. But there is nothing in the Bible to argue with that. The Jews did not believe in a separate part of us that departs the body at death. There are no disembodied souls in the Bible. The spirit realm is only inhabited by spirit beings....God and his angels, not former humans. None of the angels were born as humans because they were all created to live in heaven long before humans were created to live on earth. In both realms, everlasting life was to be enjoyed.



This is the promise of Jesus to his anointed ones. Because a limited number of humans were going to be taken to heaven to rule with Christ, he said he was going to prepare a place for them. Then he said he was going to come back for them, but not until his Kingdom was established.

The apostle Paul wrote.....
"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)

So no one was to go to heaven until Jesus came back for them.



That was a parable, not something to be taken literally. Actually if it was taken literally, it is rather ridiculous. Do you think heaven and hell are within speaking distance to one another? And do you think that a drop of water on the end of someone's finger could cool the tongue of a person in flames? Does the parable say anything about the rich man other than that he was rich? And does it say that the beggar was righteous...or just impoverished?

It is a parable about the Pharisees and the "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent. Their 'deaths' signified a change in status. The Pharisees lost "the bosom of Abraham" (a position signifying God's favor) and it was gained by the lost ones who accepted Jesus as Messiah.The anguish of the rich man was because of Jesus' exposing them for the hypocrites that they were. (Matthew 23:13-33)



This was a vision according to Jesus. It wasn't literally Elijah and Moses speaking to Jesus. He had made a statement that some among his apostles would not taste death until they saw him in his Kingdom. The transfiguration was a vision of Jesus in his kingdom glory. (Matthew 17:9) God's kingdom is founded on the Law and the Prophets, so I see in the transfiguration, Jesus as King, Elijah representing the prophets and Moses representing the Law. Peter James and John received a rare privilege.



As one of the anointed, (with the "heavenly calling") Paul, like all the other anointed ones, eagerly look forward to shedding their earthbound, sinful fleshly bodies and taking on the immortal spiritual bodies with which they will rule with Christ in heaven.

Everything is perfectly explainable when you know the truth.

Back to you....

About the ritch man. If this wer a parable, why didnt jesus call it so? And does a parable use real historic figures and real names?

Moses and elijah. If it wer a vision, why did all the apostles see it too? And do you talk to a vision? The appostles wanted to build a tent for them.

So, was paul along with the other "anointed " the only ones who had a concious soul after the departure from the body?

I have another question for you too.

All these NDEs where people claim to see things outside there body. You said there not lying, but the devil is.

So, does this mean satan is making them concious while there brain is unconcious?

 

[Jollybear]

I believe there may be hell realms that are temporary rebirth destinations. I believe the same about several paradises.

Hell realms that are rebirth destinations. Could you give me a little more detail on that?

 

[Jollybear]

Hell is eternal

Why?

 

[Jollybear]

Because the people who invented it defined it that way?

Lol, ummm, ok. Why did they do that?

 

[Milton Platt]

Lol, ummm, ok. Why did they do that?

You would have to be able to ask them.

 

[Jollybear]

You would have to be able to ask them.

Yea, that may be a problem though

 

[Milton Platt]

Yea, that may be a problem though

Exactly. Can't be done, and since it was invented by anonymous sheep herders in the desert, why bother with it?

 

[Jollybear]

I think what you're talking about is the worst Hell. I'm sure there are good arguments for that.

So far what ive heard is, because God is eternal, that warrents eternal torture upon those who sin against him.

But, eternal destruction is better, more just, more loving and yet is still eternal, thus God is eternal and still punishes eternally.

 

[Jollybear]

Exactly. Can't be done, and since it was invented by anonymous sheep herders in the desert, why bother with it?

Because of there claims to witness certain things. Plus NDEs confirm a hell. Not a eternal one though.

 

[Deeje]

About the ritch man. If this wer a parable, why didnt jesus call it so? And does a parable use real historic figures and real names?

Matthew 13:34-35..."All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them, 35 in order to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet who said: “I will open my mouth with illustrations; I will proclaim things hidden since the founding.”

If you read the previous chapters of Luke and the chapters after this illustration you will find them filled with parables. And "Lazarus", like John and Jesus were popular names at the time. It was not making reference to any actual person, just as the rich man was not an actual person, but represented the Pharisees as a group. Lazarus represented the spiritually impoverished "lost sheep" that Jesus was sent to, as a group.

Moses and elijah. If it wer a vision, why did all the apostles see it too? And do you talk to a vision? The appostles wanted to build a tent for them.

It was a vision, not a dream. Visions are a window into another realm, not something that takes place inside someone's head whilst they are asleep. Jesus said it was a vision....a portal opened up to show these apostles their King in his heavenly glory. He was fulfilling a promise. (Matthew 16:28)

So, was paul along with the other "anointed " the only ones who had a concious soul after the departure from the body?

No, Paul was not anticipating that his soul would depart from his body at death. He was a Jew, with Jewish beliefs about the dead. He knew that souls die, so he expected to sleep in death and to be resurrected in the same manner as his Lord, when Jesus was to return. They did not know when that was supposed to happen, so a "sleep" could be days...years...or even millenniums. In an unconscious state, the dead are not affected by time.

Jesus was "put to death in the flesh, but raised alive in the spirit". He was not raised with a fleshly body, but a spiritual one....a body again capable of dwelling in the presence of God. The anointed ones will all be given a spiritual body in order to go to heaven. But no one went to heaven before Jesus....and no one else would go to heaven until he returned to take his "bride" home. Once they are all there, the Kingdom arrangement will be complete and Jesus can then lead their righteous rulership to benefit redeemed mankind.

Imagine.....the Apostle John "saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:2-4)

This is what we can look forward to...the reestablishment of what was lost in Eden. Earth was never meant to be a training ground for heaven.

I have another question for you too.

All these NDEs where people claim to see things outside there body. You said there not lying, but the devil is.

So, does this mean satan is making them concious while there brain is unconcious?

I am saying that NDE's are an opportunity for satan to invade the thought processes of people who are "near death". These ones have not died, since they have not experienced brain death. They are in a most vulnerable state however, because the chemicals produced by a dying brain can be hallucinogenic.....and the devil is one to take advantage of every opportunity to deceive. If a person had no religious beliefs about life after death before an NDE, they almost always have one afterwards. They are very powerful in their effect and remain with that person for the rest of their lives.

 

[Jollybear]

Matthew 13:34-35..."All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them, 35 in order to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet who said: “I will open my mouth with illustrations; I will proclaim things hidden since the founding.”

If you read the previous chapters of Luke and the chapters after this illustration you will find them filled with parables. And "Lazarus", like John and Jesus were popular names at the time. It was not making reference to any actual person, just as the rich man was not an actual person, but represented the Pharisees as a group. Lazarus represented the spiritually impoverished "lost sheep" that Jesus was sent to, as a group.



It was a vision, not a dream. Visions are a window into another realm, not something that takes place inside someone's head whilst they are asleep. Jesus said it was a vision....a portal opened up to show these apostles their King in his heavenly glory. He was fulfilling a promise. (Matthew 16:28)



No, Paul was not anticipating that his soul would depart from his body at death. He was a Jew, with Jewish beliefs about the dead. He knew that souls die, so he expected to sleep in death and to be resurrected in the same manner as his Lord, when Jesus was to return. They did not know when that was supposed to happen, so a "sleep" could be days...years...or even millenniums. In an unconscious state, the dead are not affected by time.

Jesus was "put to death in the flesh, but raised alive in the spirit". He was not raised with a fleshly body, but a spiritual one....a body again capable of dwelling in the presence of God. The anointed ones will all be given a spiritual body in order to go to heaven. But no one went to heaven before Jesus....and no one else would go to heaven until he returned to take his "bride" home. Once they are all there, the Kingdom arrangement will be complete and Jesus can then lead their righteous rulership to benefit redeemed mankind.

Imagine.....the Apostle John "saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:2-4)

This is what we can look forward to...the reestablishment of what was lost in Eden. Earth was never meant to be a training ground for heaven.



I am saying that NDE's are an opportunity for satan to invade the thought processes of people who are "near death". These ones have not died, since they have not experienced brain death. They are in a most vulnerable state however, because the chemicals produced by a dying brain can be hallucinogenic.....and the devil is one to take advantage of every opportunity to deceive. If a person had no religious beliefs about life after death before an NDE, they almost always have one afterwards. They are very powerful in their effect and remain with that person for the rest of their lives.

Not everything Jesus said was a parable though.

The vision of moses and elijah, how could a vision in the way you describe it, talk with Jesus?

Paul was not anticipating his soul would depart from his body? Philipians 1:21:24

"21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. "

There are "veridical" NDRs. These rule out halucinations. Atleast in the case of veridical ones. People see things that are accurate, that they verify after returning to there body. Halucinations dont work like that. So in these cases, is satan telling the people accurate information on top of making them appear concious outside there suspended brain?

 

[Deeje]

Not everything Jesus said was a parable though.

No he didn't, but the scripture I gave you in Matthew 13:34-35 indicated that illustrations were his prime method of teaching, so when you pick out one particular illustration among so many others because you think it supports a favoured belief, is not really taking scripture for why it was written. Jesus' rejection of the teachings of the Pharisees is supported throughout his ministry. But nowhere does he speak about heaven and hell as opposite destinations for human souls. It was not a Jewish belief. There is nothing like that in the OT, which is the only scripture Jesus used.

The vision of moses and elijah, how could a vision in the way you describe it, talk with Jesus?

Jesus was part of the vision. He was fulfilling a promise made to his disciples. Both Moses and Elijah were long dead and John 3:13 tells us that no one went to heaven before Jesus, so these men were still literally dead. They entertained a future resurrection because this is what God taught his worshippers. (Acts 24:15) Even before Israel became a nation, God's servants believed in a resurrection, not immortality of the soul.

Paul was not anticipating his soul would depart from his body? Philipians 1:21:24

"21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

When you understand that Paul, like all the other apostles expected Jesus to set up his kingdom in heaven relatively soon, it is not surprising that they focused on where the holy spirit was directing them. It gave them an inordinate desire to go where Jesus had gone. Since humans were designed for life on earth, God's spirit gave the "chosen ones" a "heavenly calling".... a desire to live in heaven. They knew that it meant dying the same death as their Lord and being resurrected in the same kind of body that he had. They anticipated becoming immortal spirit beings in order to live in the presence of God. Remaining in their sinful body of flesh is what they wanted to end. There was no shadowy spiritual part of humans to go anywhere. Humans who die, "sleep" in the grave, waiting for Jesus to wake them up. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
There is a "first resurrection" for those who will rule with Jesus (Revelation 20:6) and a general resurrection for those over whom they will rule. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4)

There are "veridical" NDRs. These rule out halucinations. Atleast in the case of veridical ones. People see things that are accurate, that they verify after returning to there body. Halucinations dont work like that. So in these cases, is satan telling the people accurate information on top of making them appear concious outside there suspended brain?

With verdical NDE's the person having them was present and though unconscious, and could still be influenced in their thinking by unseen spirit forces which the Bible indicates are all around us. By not being in control of their thought processes and in a vulnerable condition, these forces can implant their deceptions. The perpetuation of satans first lie ("you surely will not die") is part of their agenda. Have you never wondered why NDE's are not experienced by everyone?.....and why they are often influenced by a person's religious beliefs? Immortal souls are found in almost every religious faith in the world....but you will not find them in the Bible.

Just as a side point, do you know anyone who suffers with delusions? Do you know how delusions differ from hallucinations? Chemical reactions in the brain can cause altered states of consciousness. I had a friend whose husband had lewie body dementia which causes delusions. What they see and hear whilst fully awake are as real to them as anything we see and hear. It is very difficult for them to come to grips with the fact that what they see and hear isn't real. They have to learn not to trust their senses. Before diagnosis, he and his wife had so many arguments about his delusions, until the doctors told him what his illness was doing to his perceptions. It was very difficult for him as you can imagine.

NDE's I imagine have a very similar effect on those who experience them. They are so real, but in what way?

 

[Prometheus85]

Because of there claims to witness certain things. Plus NDEs confirm a hell. Not a eternal one though.

NDE confirm hell??? Please elaborate.

 

[GODbeMERCIFULtoMEaSINNER]

If a sinner will know more and more of Gods glory through eternity, how is that possible if there seperated from God?

And if it is possible, why learn this if theres no redemptive purpose to it?

And how can they be truely immutable IF there learning?

Their character is immutable.
Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

Hell is both separation from God and the presence of God.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction FROM THE PRESENCE of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Revelation 14:10-11 :The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone IN THE PRESENCE of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

When you go to the zoo you may be in the presence of a lion or tiger or bear but at the same time separated from them. Those that died in their sin will be forever separated from the glory of God and at the same time be tormented in the presence of the Holy Angels and in the presence of the Lamb. This is all a part of Divine retribution.