Why is hell eternal?

[Jollybear]

What if they are not lying but have all been deceived by the devil...its his lie that they are perpetuating.....he is the one who said "you surely will not die"....but God said you will...so who did Jesus call "the father of the lie" ?

Well, its true the BODY dies, but that dont have to mean the spirit does.

Also many of these near death experiences are associated with incredable peace and joy and a feeling of indescribable love.

So i ask you, can the devil give peace and joy and a sense of indescribable love greater then what they have ever felt on earth? Because thats how many of them describe this love.

 

[Deeje]

Well, its true the BODY dies, but that dont have to mean the spirit does.

Is the spirit and the soul the same in your understanding? They are different words with very different meanings in the Bible. Understanding the difference is important.

Also many of these near death experiences are associated with incredable peace and joy and a feeling of indescribable love.

So i ask you, can the devil give peace and joy and a sense of indescribable love greater then what they have ever felt on earth? Because thats how many of them describe this love.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 NASB..."No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."

The best equipped soldiers in a war are those who "know their enemy". Satan is at war with those who uphold the teachings of Jesus Christ....but those who swallow the false Christianity sown by the devil after the apostles died, will not recognize the snow job.
We have to know why Jesus gave the parable of the "wheat and the weeds". (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43) You only have to look at the history of the "church" to see the weeds.

 

[Deeje]

I also wanted to address these points....

1. Hell is eternal because God says it is.
Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

This is directed to the "goats" at the judgment....but what is the "everlasting punishment" that Jesus spoke about?
When Jesus sentenced the Pharisees to "gehenna" (often erroneously translated as "hell") was he telling them that they would suffer in eternal flames forever? I hardly think so, because Jews did not subscribe to any belief in a fiery hell. They did not believe in conscious life after death, so "gehenna" to a Jew means eternal death, which is the opposite to eternal life.

2. Hell is eternal because every action of ours has eternal ramifications.
Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Again this has symbolic meaning because the Jews had no belief in conscious existence after death. They believed in a resurrection, which was demonstrated by Jesus and his apostles, bringing the dead back to life....this life. Why would they do that if these people had been rewarded with heaven? Why raise them from the dead if they had to die a second time?

The Bible mentions two different resurrections...a "first resurrection" is for those with the "heavenly calling" and the general resurrection is for the ones who will be their subjects here on earth. Death does not instantly lead to another form of life, but is a "sleep" from which only God's spirit can awaken them. (Revelation 20:6; John 5:28-29)

3.Hell is eternal because the justice of God demands that the aggravation of sin be counterbalanced with a payment proportionable to the vidigation of Gods glory.
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

That simply means that we fall short of the perfection that Adam was originally created with. (Romans 5:12) If man was sinless, he would reflect the glory of God. But now sin acts as a barrier between us and God, requiring Jesus to become a mediator for us.

4. Hell is eternal because man was created in God's image and if man ever cease to exist God would be attacking his own image so when a person dies in their sin because they can never pay for their sin and God's image can never be destroyed hell must go on forever.
Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Oh dear, what a twisted spin on the words of Genesis.....God breathed life into Adam but rather than "giving" Adam a soul, Adam "became" a soul because he was breathing. In Hebrew, a soul is always a living, breathing creature. There are no disembodied souls in the Bible. There are "spirits" but these are either faithful angels...or wicked demons. No spirits are former dead people....but the demons can impersonate them....like they did with Saul and the prophet Samuel.

5. Hell is forever because God would not be just if he did not give to sin what the demerit of sin calls for and if the demerit of sin call for Everlasting burnings the justice of God must give to sin what the demerit of sin calls for.
Deuteronomy 7:10 "And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face."

It says "destroy them" I cannot see any hell of punishment there. But speaking of justice....can you name one punishment in Israel that was not intended to teach God's people the value of obeying their God? There were no prisons because these were unnecessary. The criminal was required to compensate his victim by working to repay more than what he stole. That way, he was less likely to commit more crime. Repentance was always the goal of the penalty or in the case of the death penalty, the offender would never take another life because he had paid for his crime with his own. It was a warning example to others.

Justice demands that the punishment should always fit the crime....an eternal punishment for a short life of sin (which is not the fault of humans in the first place) requires that God will extend mercy if the criminal is sincerely sorry for his actions. But God has no desire to punish people with anything but death. They simply forfeit the right to life.

An eternal Hell of torment flies in the face of what Peter said of his God...." The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9 NASB)

The word translated "perish" is "apollymi" which means....

1. to destroy
   1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
   2. render useless
   3. to kill
   4. to declare that one must be put to death
   5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
   6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed

You will notice that #5 is given as 'metaphorical' and is well down on the list of possible meanings. 1-4 conveys the general meaning of the word. The metaphor was invented by those who want God to be some kind of sadistic fiend.

Why would God grant everlasting life to the wicked, only to torture them forever? Where is the justice? How does the punishment fit the crime?

Jesus said...."Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[gehenna]" (Matthew 10:28) You will see that God "destroys" souls in gehenna...he does not keep them alive only to punish them. Would a loving God do such a thing?

 

[Desert Snake]

Well the word eternal dont mean forever as in time with no end.

Look at jonah 2:6

6To the roots of the mountains I sank down;

the earth beneath barred me in FOREVER.

But you, Lord my God,

brought my life up from the pit.

So was jonah bared in forever as in time with no end? No.

Eternal dont mean no end.

We say it in relation to our work days

"The day draged on FOREVER"

But we dont mean time with no end.

The OT, [christian Bible, says everlasting. I'm going with that, over your theories, or some groups theories, etc.

The idea is, most Jewish & Christian belief, eternal Hell, may not be deserved. So it may vary. That seems to be where the Jewish and Christian Hell ideas, were or are, for the most part, similar. [At least traditionally.

Now, since there isn't really context, by which one might determine, whether Hell would be eternal, here, or there...it's speculation.

So, we generalize, to eternal.

 

[GODbeMERCIFULtoMEaSINNER]

I'll try to answer your question the best I can on why Jesus could pay and time what will take us all eternity to pay. If my answer is not satisfactory can give you a better illustration than what im giving.

You have found yourself in a courtroom because of the many crimes you have committed, and your wickedness has been uncovered for all to see. You have been found guilty by the judge and jury. The judge tells you that you have a trillion dollar fine or life in prison with hard labor and many stripes. You are in big trouble there's no way you can pay your debt. The officer takes you by the arm in somewhat of a rough way having no regard to your well-being and begins to usher you off to prison. When someone steps forward who has an infinite amount of money, they offer to pay your trillion-dollar debt. Do you embrace this payment, or do you reject it? This is not a hard decision to make, so you receive the payment and are allowed to go free. The person that paid your fine had enough money to pay your debts and could pay all the debts of the whole world. We have someone who can pay our debts and pay the debts of the whole world in the person of Christ. Christ is God and because of this he has infinite virtue and value. The Lord Jesus Christ lived a perfect life fulfilling the law and repaired the injury that had been done to it by us vile sinners. And when he went to the Cross he was cursed by the same law he fulfilled, because our law breaking was imputed to him. It was after a dreadful display of wrath by his Father that Jesus said "it is finished", he had paid the debt that nobody else could.
2 Corinthians 8:9 "For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."

 

[GODbeMERCIFULtoMEaSINNER]

Depravity must be counterbalanced with severity. To not understand depravity is to not understand severity. God is the only one who can measure out severity, he's the only one wise enough, righteous enough, and holy enough.
Revelation 14:10-11 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

 

[Prometheus85]

No, i seen the spiritual realm. Some others have seen hell.

Please elaborate on you seeing this so called "spiritual realm" and how some others have seen hell.

 

[Prometheus85]

Huh? Me seeimg the spiritual realm is not the reason others seen hell. They saw hell on there own. You got some weird, twisted reasoning there.

Why dont you SLOW down before responding because the points your making are very MESSY.

How do u know they saw hell? Again, after all how do YOU know these things really did happen and these people actually saw hell? You weren’t there to see it happen.

 

[illykitty]

I don't personally believe in hell, it's a belief that never made sense to me. It would be like a parent punishing a child forever because of some bad things they did. Never ending punishment makes no sense for a finite crime, no matter how bad it is.

Also depending on who you talk to, you can go to hell just for not believing. Doesn't matter you were as moral as a saint, the belief in an invisible deity without any evidence is absolutely required. Sounds like an ego fuelled power trip.

So yeah, hell isn't eternal, I'm 99.99% convinced it simply doesn't exist. I think more than likely we just cease to exist or less likely maybe something else like rebirth, however no eternal torture.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I dont believe there all lying

And i will never believe that either.

Please read Revelation 12:9 regarding deception, and see how it explains this crazy world with it's numerous beliefs.... Afterlife beliefs are everywhere! Yet they contradict Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 146:3-4, John 11:11-14, and many others.

 

[Deeje]

Not sure if this is directed to me, but I will respond anyway....

I'll try to answer your question the best I can on why Jesus could pay and time what will take us all eternity to pay. If my answer is not satisfactory can give you a better illustration than what im giving.

You have found yourself in a courtroom because of the many crimes you have committed, and your wickedness has been uncovered for all to see. You have been found guilty by the judge and jury. The judge tells you that you have a trillion dollar fine or life in prison with hard labor and many stripes. You are in big trouble there's no way you can pay your debt. The officer takes you by the arm in somewhat of a rough way having no regard to your well-being and begins to usher you off to prison. When someone steps forward who has an infinite amount of money, they offer to pay your trillion-dollar debt. Do you embrace this payment, or do you reject it? This is not a hard decision to make, so you receive the payment and are allowed to go free. The person that paid your fine had enough money to pay your debts and could pay all the debts of the whole world. We have someone who can pay our debts and pay the debts of the whole world in the person of Christ. Christ is God and because of this he has infinite virtue and value. The Lord Jesus Christ lived a perfect life fulfilling the law and repaired the injury that had been done to it by us vile sinners. And when he went to the Cross he was cursed by the same law he fulfilled, because our law breaking was imputed to him. It was after a dreadful display of wrath by his Father that Jesus said "it is finished", he had paid the debt that nobody else could.
2 Corinthians 8:9 "For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."

Yes, Jesus is called the "Redeemer". Your illustration touches on it, but still demands that Jesus had to be God in order to become our Redeemer. Jesus did not have to be God to buy back what Adam lost for his children....all he had to be was a sinless human, the equivalent of Adam. God could never be the equivalent of a mere human. The ransom price did not demand that....not even close.

Jesus alone paid "the ransom" which is what freed us from condemnation to sin and death. Yet, even though the debt was paid almost 2,000 years ago, we are all still sinful and dying....do you know why?

 

[Deeje]

Depravity must be counterbalanced with severity. To not understand depravity is to not understand severity. God is the only one who can measure out severity, he's the only one wise enough, righteous enough, and holy enough.
Revelation 14:10-11 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

"Depravity"? Are you depraved? I don't think I am...I don't think the majority of humankind are "depraved"...sinful, yes, but what does that actually mean? What is "sin"?

In context, Revelation ch 14 is about a certain time period. John sees "the Lamb...standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.. . . .And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. 4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless."

Who are these 144,000 who have been "purchased from the earth" as "first fruits"? Why are they called "first fruits"...what did the Jews understand that term to mean?

An angel has good news for people of...."every nation and tribe and tongue and people" but it comes with a warning...."Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

Then another angel announces 'the fall of Babylon the great'. What does this mean? When does this happen?

And still another angel declares...."saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

When does all this take place? What is the beast and its image? What is the smoke and the torment...the fire and the brimstone? What is involved in worshipping the beast and its image and the mark of its name? Who are "the dead who die in the Lord from now on"?

You see, quoting scripture out of context can give people a very wrong impression. The whole chapter needs to be considered before we take snippets out to make a point. Is this all to be taken as literal or figurative?

 

[Jollybear]

The OT, [christian Bible, says everlasting. I'm going with that, over your theories, or some groups theories, etc.

The idea is, most Jewish & Christian belief, eternal Hell, may not be deserved. So it may vary. That seems to be where the Jewish and Christian Hell ideas, were or are, for the most part, similar. [At least traditionally.

Now, since there isn't really context, by which one might determine, whether Hell would be eternal, here, or there...it's speculation.

So, we generalize, to eternal.

Everlasting or forever, same thing.

Most versions say forever in the jonah verse i gave. Jonah 2:6 To the roots of the mountains I descended; the earth beneath me barred me in forever! But You raised my life from the pit, O LORD my God!

Instead of just denying my point, why not refute it?

Jonah said he was bared in forever, but obviously that did not literally happen. So, im not speaking an isolated, unfounded, unrational theory here. Account for the point.

 

[Jollybear]

I'll try to answer your question the best I can on why Jesus could pay and time what will take us all eternity to pay. If my answer is not satisfactory can give you a better illustration than what im giving.

You have found yourself in a courtroom because of the many crimes you have committed, and your wickedness has been uncovered for all to see. You have been found guilty by the judge and jury. The judge tells you that you have a trillion dollar fine or life in prison with hard labor and many stripes. You are in big trouble there's no way you can pay your debt. The officer takes you by the arm in somewhat of a rough way having no regard to your well-being and begins to usher you off to prison. When someone steps forward who has an infinite amount of money, they offer to pay your trillion-dollar debt. Do you embrace this payment, or do you reject it? This is not a hard decision to make, so you receive the payment and are allowed to go free. The person that paid your fine had enough money to pay your debts and could pay all the debts of the whole world. We have someone who can pay our debts and pay the debts of the whole world in the person of Christ. Christ is God and because of this he has infinite virtue and value. The Lord Jesus Christ lived a perfect life fulfilling the law and repaired the injury that had been done to it by us vile sinners. And when he went to the Cross he was cursed by the same law he fulfilled, because our law breaking was imputed to him. It was after a dreadful display of wrath by his Father that Jesus said "it is finished", he had paid the debt that nobody else could.
2 Corinthians 8:9 "For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."

Oh wait a minute, theres one problem with your analogy here.

The payment is not trillions, its infinitum or unlimited (e.g. forever).

Did jesus pay for our sin by being tortured forever? Because thats the payment supposidly.

 

[Jollybear]

Is the spirit and the soul the same in your understanding? They are different words with very different meanings in the Bible. Understanding the difference is important.



2 Corinthians 11:14-15 NASB..."No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."

The best equipped soldiers in a war are those who "know their enemy". Satan is at war with those who uphold the teachings of Jesus Christ....but those who swallow the false Christianity sown by the devil after the apostles died, will not recognize the snow job.
We have to know why Jesus gave the parable of the "wheat and the weeds". (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43) You only have to look at the history of the "church" to see the weeds.

Theres body, soul and spirit.

Body is, well blood, flesh, organs, muscle, bone.

Soul is mind (e.g. intellect, reasoning, visual pictures in head) and emotions and will.

And spirit is the energy, or life force and astral counter duplicate of the physical body. The ghost figure.

 

[Jollybear]

Please read Revelation 12:9 regarding deception, and see how it explains this crazy world with it's numerous beliefs.... Afterlife beliefs are everywhere! Yet they contradict Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 146:3-4, John 11:11-14, and many others.

Yes, i get it that satan can masquerade the true light. He can decieve. But the bible says to test the spirits to see whether they come from God.

Ok, can satan give peace, joy and a sense of indescribable love that many near death experiencers have?

 

[Jollybear]

How do u know they saw hell? Again, after all how do YOU know these things really did happen and these people actually saw hell? You weren’t there to see it happen.

Theres too many testimonies to lead me to think there all liers. Thats why. And im repeating myself which means your not paying attention.

I saw the spiritual realm through my 3 astral projections i experienced.

 

[Prometheus85]

Theres too many testimonies to lead me to think there all liers. Thats why. And im repeating myself which means your not paying attention.

I saw the spiritual realm through my 3 astral projections i experienced.

You see the problem with your argument is that you keep relying on testimonials which are generally considered the weakest level of evidence and is very closely related to using anecdotal evidence. There is no way possible to prove what people are seeing when having OBE is real. And it’s quite vague on your part to rely just on testimonials as proof because
the experiences of multiple people, as in a list of testimonials, is also invalid, as this is simply a list of individual stories, and not a systematic study. And as far as your experience with this so called "astral plane" is interesting, but the experience of one person, while often interesting, does not allow for generalization to others.

 

[Muffled]

Why do you believe hell is eternal and not temporary?

I believe it is eternal because it has no time.

 

[Muffled]

Ohhh ok, lol, my mistake

Welcome to RF. You can still introduce yourself but just not with a debate, lol.