Why Is High Intelligence So Rare?

[XAAX]

This is blantantly untrue, there are known fossils up to a billion years old.

Sorry wanderer, I thought the only other fossills that old were of bacteria traped in rocks. I may be wrong, i am no anthropologist. Still, the point was anything that would be left of our civilizatioin would be gone.

 

[painted wolf]

actually Archaea fossils have been found in rocks dating to 3.5 billion years old.
the oldest multicellular life is from around 500 million years old
the oldest vertibrate is from around the same time, jaws make thier appearance about 400 million years ago.
220 million years ago would be in the middle of the Triassic period where mammals and dinosaurs, pterosaurs and a host of other groups make thier big entrances.

anyway, who says that intelligent life NEEDS to use radio. They are aliens for the very fact that they are not like us. What if they can't hear in the way we can, if at all?

wa:do

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

To drift slightly back to the original topic...

Among other things, being highly intelligent means you have a brain that requires a lot of space and energy, and likely a long period of growing up and adapting to the world while being dependent on others. So there are drawbacks. And often high intelligence really isn't needed to survive. There are plenty of other very successful strategies.

Someone mentioned defining "highly intelligent," which seems an interesting idea. Ability to solve complex problems and adapt to new situations is certainly a large part of it, if not all of it. There are characteristics that are signs of this (like tool usage or empathy), and things that might lead to it (like being social), but overall I'd define intelligence as creative response to the environment, with an ability to learn and make connections quickly.

 

[My name is Wanda]

anyway, who says that intelligent life NEEDS to use radio. They are aliens for the very fact that they are not like us.

Intelligent life doesn't need to use radio at all. Humans managed to survive for all but the last hundred-odd years without it after all. However, if we're going to find them, then we need to be able to detect them somehow, and until we get much better planet-detecting apparati, we NEED them to announce themselves with radiowaves if we're ever to contact them.

What if they can't hear in the way we can, if at all?

If they've managed to survive long enough to be tool-users, then odds are they'll have one of sight, sound or somekind of electricity sense, all of which could be transmitted via airwaves. Any animal that wants to survive would probably rely one one of these senses, or otherwise they wouldn't be able to detect where predators or prey were. I guess they may rely on some other sense that I haven't thought of, however there are only so many ways that information can be transmitted. I'd suggest that if they were able to transmit radiowaves, then they would have to be able to see, because otherwise they would have had no real way to consistently craft finely-detailed objects, which you need when you're getting to that level of technology.

 

[painted wolf]

perhaps they have highly developed sonar or eccolocation... sences need not be like ours at all. What if they speak in a manner similer to cuttlefish, with highly detailed and fluid bands of color and light.
If you can see 360 degrees why do you need to hear?

Just because we may never notice them (we are very loud you know) doesn't mean they arn't out there, or could never evolve.

As for large brains... large brains have not been proven to denote high intelligence.
Octopus and cuttlefish are very adept problem sovers, highly social, commucative.
Many birds are tool users, adept problem solvers, highly social, communicative(some in english to the same level as a human toddler) aware of math and able to teach these concepts to others of thier own kind.

wa:do

 

[michel]

Is intelligence genetic ?

 

[painted wolf]

genetics plays a role, as does teaching and environment. There are a lot of environmental factors that can have an effect on intelligence. One of the biggest is nutrition. Pollutiant like Lead have a disasterous effect.

wa:do

 

[logician]

actually Archaea fossils have been found in rocks dating to 3.5 billion years old.
the oldest multicellular life is from around 500 million years old
the oldest vertibrate is from around the same time, jaws make thier appearance about 400 million years ago.
220 million years ago would be in the middle of the Triassic period where mammals and dinosaurs, pterosaurs and a host of other groups make thier big entrances.

anyway, who says that intelligent life NEEDS to use radio. They are aliens for the very fact that they are not like us. What if they can't hear in the way we can, if at all?

wa:do

Certainly ALL intelligent aliens would not want to commuciate to the rest of the universe, however, if they were common, it seems extremely likely that SOME intelligent aliens WOULD. For that reason, it seems likely that highly intelligent life capable of interstellar travel is quite uncommon.

 

[My name is Wanda]

perhaps they have highly developed sonar or eccolocation... sences need not be like ours at all. What if they speak in a manner similer to cuttlefish, with highly detailed and fluid bands of color and light.
If you can see 360 degrees why do you need to hear?

Er... sonar is echolocation, which is the reflection of soundwaves.... which is basically a specialised form of hearing. You do realise that, right? And sound isn't the only thing that can be transmitted by radiowaves. Television is transmitted by radiowaves as well. Don't get caught by the brainbug that radiowaves = radio = sound, because plenty of things can be transmitted via radiowaves. Even my internet could be transmitted via radiowaves.

[quoteJust because we may never notice them (we are very loud you know) doesn't mean they arn't out there, or could never evolve.[/quote]

I'm not saying they're not out there or could never evolved. I'm just saying that the only way we'll be able to detect them now is if they send out radiowaves. Perhaps in a few decades we might have the ability to detect them, but even so, space is big, and the odds of us lookin in the right place are quite small unless we have some kind of signal from them.

As for large brains... large brains have not been proven to denote high intelligence.

Actually, there is a correlation between mass to brain ratio and intellignce, with a secondary correlation between brain size and intelligence. Birds and cehpalapods tend to have quite large brains relative to their mass (it may not look it with birds, but they're actually fairly efficient with everything they do, and their mass-brain size ratio is generally about equal to a human's except amongst flightless birds).

I agree that birds are very smart, but they're still not quite on the same level as humans. Personally I actually believe that it's because animal brains lose the ability to develop further once they become mature, but humans brain retains this child-like growth. After all, we exhibit neoteny in almost every other aspect of our development. Why not our brains as well? Of course, that's just my opinion, so take it with a bucket or two of salt, if you like.

 

[painted wolf]

sonar is used to distinguish underwater transmissions, eccolocation is more commonly used to refer to above ground use. (you don't hear many naturalists say that bats use sonar for instance)
I'm a bit of a biologist so I do understand how it works.
The point was that intelligent species may be aquatic as well. Makes electronics tough though.

and yes, I do understand that T.V is transmitted via radiowave, microwaves and other forms of electromagnetic radiation. My point was to previous insistances that ALL intelligent life would get to using Electromagnetic tecnology for information broadcast. This is a falce premice. Tecnology like biology does not have to follow our model. We are not the blueprint or archtype for intelligence.

As for brain/body ratio = intelligence. A lot of recent reserch is proving how much intelligence you can pack into small packages. Just look at H.floriensis. Brain the size of a Grapefruit doing the same work as a brain more than twice its size.

And I will use all the salt avalable... animal brains show no loss of learning capacity as they mature. You can teach an old dog new tricks, dispite what "wise sayings" say.

As for birds actually many birds have HIGHER brain/body ratios than humans do.
1/12 as opposed to 1/40 for humans.... Mice however have THE SAME brain/body ratio as humans 1/40. Obviously no one is advocating that mice are on the same level has humans. Brain size does not = intelligence.

More important is the EQ or encephalization quotent. Humans win out here with an EQ of 7.44, mice with a 0.50.

what does all this mean... not much really. We still don't know enough about how the brain works to make such assumptions, but there are a lot of ideas being batted around. Everything from more wrinkles means more smarts to more neocortex is more smarts.

more info on brain/body size, neurology and such can be found here: http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/kinser/Int1.html

wa:do

 

[JerryL]

I fear the "what sense" argument is moot. We don't transmit sight over radio, we transmit information. Whether the reciever hears, looks at, or smells it is not generally importnt (except in audio, which can vibrate the antanne).

There are many much more important considerations, including how powerful a broadcast would have to be to be recieved even locally. Some of the worlds most sensitive recieving arrays, pointing directly at Voyager, can barely get a signil from across the solar-system (which is only 5.5lh in radius). The nearest star is 6,721 times that distance, and radio power decreases as the square of the distance, not lineraly.

 

[logician]

I fear the "what sense" argument is moot. We don't transmit sight over radio, we transmit information. Whether the reciever hears, looks at, or smells it is not generally importnt (except in audio, which can vibrate the antanne).

There are many much more important considerations, including how powerful a broadcast would have to be to be recieved even locally. Some of the worlds most sensitive recieving arrays, pointing directly at Voyager, can barely get a signil from across the solar-system (which is only 5.5lh in radius). The nearest star is 6,721 times that distance, and radio power decreases as the square of the distance, not lineraly.

There are certainly other options an advanced alien race could come up with to communicate to other parts of the same galaxy over a long period of time. For example, thousands of robot spaceships set up with powerful transmitters and receivers could be launched to pervade all regions of a galaxy, so that any local area of the galaxy would be within fairly close proximity of one of these communication spaceships. Any communications with these spaceships could be leap-frogged back to a main transmitter-receiver at the home planet. This admittedly would take a long time, but would be possible.

 

[linwood]

Why do so few species have high intelligence? If high intelligence is a successful survival strategy, why hasn't it evolved more often?

I don`t think it`s a part of a successful survival strategy.
I think it`s a side effect of a successful species.

Those who find it easier to survive(meet basic needs) have more time to strengthen all pursuits beyond hunting for food.
The pursuit of knowledge, understanding, among them.

Late again..I know.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

[SIZE=+0]hmmmmm....[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]I'm so intelligent that I'm not even going to dignify the question with an answer.....[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Do'h....I just did......[/SIZE]

 

[JerryL]

There are certainly other options an advanced alien race could come up with to communicate to other parts of the same galaxy over a long period of time. For example, thousands of robot spaceships set up with powerful transmitters and receivers could be launched to pervade all regions of a galaxy, so that any local area of the galaxy would be within fairly close proximity of one of these communication spaceships.

Why aren't we doing it?

You assume that a technology that doesn't exist in us will neccessairily be invnted by others... that a will we've never been shown to have will neccessairily be had by others... That it's both feasble and that someone will choose to do it.

And you assume that such a sophisticated network will waste energy in such massive quantites that we can detect it, and that it will use an electromagnetic signal.

There are so many unfounded assumptions which must all be true that all you have is utter speculation on something that might happen.

Any communications with these spaceships could be leap-frogged back to a main transmitter-receiver at the home planet. This admittedly would take a long time, but would be possible.

What would you power a ship that crosses the galaxy with? What would you power billions of them with (the galaxy is something like pi * 50^2 * 12 * 10^6 cubic lightyears (94,200,000,000 ly^3) in size)?

If we put one per ly^3, that would be 94 billion objects capable of traversing galactic distances, holding position, not being destroied, transmitting an omni-directional signal capable of being picked up over a distance of at least 1ly, and capable of detecing such a signal.

When do you think that the US will budget such a project?

 

[painted wolf]

great point, we can't even agree on the ISS being a good idea let alone something of that scope.

linwood.
Makes you wonder what those elephants are thinking about as they wander around doesn't it. Thier food isn't running away after all and reserch has shown they are big gossips, always talking. (even to others as far away as three miles)

"so how's the grazing over there?"
"not bad, the lions are at the watering hole though, they always stink it up."
"sheesh, carnivors."

wa:do

 

[My name is Wanda]

The point was that intelligent species may be aquatic as well. Makes electronics tough though.

Makes fire tough too, which makes forging iron tough, which makes tools tough... you know, being aquatic makes most things tough, so unless they embark on a super selective breeding programme with all the less intelligent little fishies which causes the little fishies to turn into automated factories (or whatever), then their culture will have a built-in limit on its sophistication. And even if they do manage to breed the less intelligent little fishies to become automated factories (or whatever), they'll still have a kind of technology that is highly susceptible to bacterial and viral infections.

and yes, I do understand that T.V is transmitted via radiowave, microwaves and other forms of electromagnetic radiation. My point was to previous insistances that ALL intelligent life would get to using Electromagnetic tecnology for information broadcast. This is a falce premice. Tecnology like biology does not have to follow our model. We are not the blueprint or archtype for intelligence.

I was never referring to ALL intelligent life. I was referring to technological life. Like humans in the last 50 to 100-odd years or so, but not humans prior to that. Besides, why wouldn't technology follow our model? Technology is basically utilising the laws of science to do stuff, and the laws of physics aren't going to magically change because the aliens are living on Alpha Gemini IV as opposed to Sol III. Radiowaves are the fastest medium available for communication, so if they're technological, then they'll probably utilise them in some way, shape or form. They might, for some reason, lack our mass entertainment networks, but it's ridiculous to think that they'll have advanced technology and no understanding of radiowaves. It would be like having advanced knowledge of Italian cooking, but not knowing what spaghetti was.

Besides, I only brought EM waves into it because that's the only way we'll be able to detect them in the foreseeable future. Even if we manage to detect Earth-like planets, we won't know what's on them until we send a probe out, which would take centuries. These lovely aquatic aliens of yours may very well exist, however we have no way of detecting them, because the only way we can detect them right now is through radiowaves.

... And we actually are the archetype for intelligence. At least in our consciousness at the moment. Perhaps soe other intelligent species will crop up one day, but until they do, humans are all we have to go by. Or do you think we should use Vulcans as the standard instead?

 

[painted wolf]

well dolphins have recently discovered tool use... so who knows.
Knapping and stonework are fine without fire.

I'm saying making assumptions as to what Aliens are like is silly. Saying they don't exist because we havent seen them is silly. Besides as it was stated before, radio is a poor medium, it gets weaker as it travels.
And I would think its more like having knowlege of Cooking and not knowing what Italian is.

I'm anti- humanocentrism. Too many people can't look past thier own species.
Vulcans are silly, I rather use Time Lords.

wa:do

 

[logician]

Why aren't we doing it?

You assume that a technology that doesn't exist in us will neccessairily be invnted by others... that a will we've never been shown to have will neccessairily be had by others... That it's both feasble and that someone will choose to do it.

And you assume that such a sophisticated network will waste energy in such massive quantites that we can detect it, and that it will use an electromagnetic signal.

There are so many unfounded assumptions which must all be true that all you have is utter speculation on something that might happen.

What would you power a ship that crosses the galaxy with? What would you power billions of them with (the galaxy is something like pi * 50^2 * 12 * 10^6 cubic lightyears (94,200,000,000 ly^3) in size)?

If we put one per ly^3, that would be 94 billion objects capable of traversing galactic distances, holding position, not being destroied, transmitting an omni-directional signal capable of being picked up over a distance of at least 1ly, and capable of detecing such a signal.

When do you think that the US will budget such a project?

Why do you keep interpreting everything in human terms, like our technology is the most advanced there could be. If intelligent alien races are indeed common, then there is no reason that some of them could not be light years ahead of us in technological prowess and know-how, and may indeed be able to do things we cannot even comprehend.

 

[painted wolf]

like figure there are better things to do than try to "reach out and touch some ET".

wa:do