Why is Homosexuality such a polarizing issue?

[Mister Emu]

I'll probably get impaled for this

I am probably what you would consider a member of the "religious right".

I would be happy if the religious right would just concede that it's a good thing to keep religion and state separate.

I believe that separation of church and state was made to stop the government from taking over the religion(Like the King had where they had come from) not religion influencing the government.

I come down on the side for homosexual rights.

There isn't a reason to object to other human beings having rights

According to (correct me if I'm wrong) Louisiana legislature marriage is a privlige to be shared by a man and a woman, not a right.

I am not sure if I agree that there should be a ban on homosexual marriages, I do not believe that it is morally right, yet we have so much wrong with this country, to stop this because "it's wrong" is hypocritical. Basically I think there are much more important issues than who can marry whom(such as ending the lives of innocent pre-birth humans but that is for another debate).

As to why it is such a divisive issue, people will defend their lifestyle with much fervor, part of the christian lifestyle is denouncing sins where we see them(not denouncing the person, just sin and trying to help said person, and the Bible expressly and multiple times denounces the act of same-sex intercourse). Obviously part of being homosexual is being homosexual. Thus a conflict emerges.

 

[Jaymes]

Absolutely you can object...that's your right to free speech...but when your objections become law and they're based on your religious views then that is not ok.

I thoroughly agree that they can object, I just don't see a reason to object. Free speech and all that jazz, but why use it on hate?

According to (correct me if I'm wrong) Louisiana legislature marriage is a privlige to be shared by a man and a woman, not a right.

Since I have no idea how things are in Lousiana, I can't comment on their legislature. If that is so, then I think that's pretty fscked up. People have a right to spend their lives with who they love... and have the benefits of marriage.

When the law stops someone from seeing their significant other when they're in the hosptial at the wishes of the family simply because the law doesn't allow them to marry, something's wrong. It's not a privilage for two consenting adults to be married. Everyone has that inherent right.

And frankly, I wouldn't give Lousiana legislature a second glance. Cock fights are still legal there, for crying out loud.

As to why it is such a divisive issue, people will defend their lifestyle with much fervor, part of the christian lifestyle is denouncing sins where we see them(not denouncing the person, just sin and trying to help said person, and the Bible expressly and multiple times denounces the act of same-sex intercourse). Obviously part of being homosexual is being homosexual. Thus a conflict emerges.

Point it out all you want. Just keep it out of the bloody laws.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

...part of the christian lifestyle is denouncing sins where we see them(not denouncing the person, just sin and trying to help said person, and the Bible expressly and multiple times denounces the act of same-sex intercourse).

Emu -
I guess this may be one of my single biggest gripes with the Christian Church. The need to "denounce sins where we see them" gives most people a bad taste for Christianity. It fosters a holier-than-thou attitude in most that practice it.
Let me put it this way: How do you think it would be received if every Agnostic and every Atheist took every opportunity to denounce Christians every time they strayed from the moral path (of the Agnostics' and Atheists' choosing)? My guess is that it would not be too well received. Better yet - how 'bout if they denounced these "sins" publicly and loudly - maybe even held a news conference to denounce the Christians when they strayed?
It makes me think of the song "Harper Valley PTA" from back in the sixties - "The Lord knows I'm drinking, and running around, and he don't need you're loud mouth, telling the town."

TVOR

 

[Pah]

I'll probably get impaled for this

I am probably what you would consider a member of the "religious right".

I believe that separation of church and state was made to stop the government from taking over the religion(Like the King had where they had come from) not religion influencing the government.

In the history of the US, a religious group became the government of their colony which quickly led to banishment from the colony of any that had religious thoughts different from the government. It followed with the despicable witch hunts which killed and imprisoned many. Though this is an extreme example it was this kind of thing, the involvment of church in goverance, that also played a large part in establishing the separation. It was primarily Baptists and Quackers who feared the most from a religious government but, of course, without much public voice and few numbers, Jews as well. The arrogance in the "understanding" of the political phrase "freedom of religion" certainly did not extend to the native Americans already established.

According to (correct me if I'm wrong) Louisiana legislature marriage is a privlige to be shared by a man and a woman, not a right.

I understand in that state there are two marriages permitted by law (and not sure if man/woman is specified). One a plain civil marriage, as we know it, perfomed by magistrate and clergy alike, and another which places qualifying restrictions on who can partake of thsi marriage. This may be one of privilage for one has to complete state santioned instruction for marriage and much more severe cause for divorce - a covenent marriage. But I'm only working from memory.

<<<cut>>>
-pah-

 

[Bastet]

I understand in that state there are two marriages permitted by law (and not sure if man/woman is specified). One a plain civil marriage, as we know it, perfomed by magistrate and clergy alike, and another which places qualifying restrictions on who can partake of thsi marriage. This may be one of privilage for one has to complete state santioned instruction for marriage and much more severe cause for divorce - a covenent marriage. But I'm only working from memory.

Louisiana voted for an amendment to their constitution recently, banning gay marriage in any way, shape or form. They won't recognise marriages performed out of state, or civil unions either. http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/09/091904laAmend.htm

 

[Mister Emu]

I guess this may be one of my single biggest gripes with the Christian Church. The need to "denounce sins where we see them" gives most people a bad taste for Christianity.

I am sorry about your feelings.

It fosters a holier-than-thou attitude in most that practice it.

Nobody should have such an attitude, we have all sinned, we have all done wrong to deny this is to lie. If someone especially a Christian, who should know better, comes at you with such an attitude, it would be best to remind them of the above sentence.

Let me put it this way: How do you think it would be received if every Agnostic and every Atheist took every opportunity to denounce Christians every time they strayed from the moral path (of the Agnostics' and Atheists' choosing)? My guess is that it would not be too well received.

Go for it, depending on what the "moral path" consisted of most Christians should take it in stride, or just ignore it.

It makes me think of the song "Harper Valley PTA" from back in the sixties - "The Lord knows I'm drinking, and running around, and he don't need you're loud mouth, telling the town."

If you did not know however that drinking(being an alcoholic) is wrong than you need to be informed.

 

[Jaymes]

What if you know some people think drinking is wrong, but you don't believe it is?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Emu -

I liked your response to the very first part that you quoted - "I am sorry about your feelings". Nicely done on your part - I deserved that.

"Nobody should have that feeling" - yet many do (some would say most).

"...should take it in stride, or just ignore it." - I would bet my life that this would not be how it was received.

"If you did not know it was wrong, you should be informed" - I'll buy that. But how that message is conveyed is critical. Maybe as importantly, most people (when being informed of their shortcomings) don't need to be told that "God says it's wrong - and you're going to hell for it".

Thanks for the reply Emu,

TVOR

PS - the minigolf game is addictive as heck.

 

[dolly]

Lousiana screwed up though. It should be noted that they failed to allow many sections of New Orleans - the homosexual area - to vote by not getting the machines to MANY of the precincts on time. Purposely, too, because these are the votes which would have been anti-amendment.

The amendment could also be considered illegal because it has too many goals.

http://www.civilmarriage.org/article.php?story=20040923212000336
http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=2323129
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/18/louisiana.gaymarriage.ap/

etc.


Isn't that nice of them! To make sure it passes, they denied many, MANY people the right to vote.

 

[Sunstone]

Sounds all too familiar in this day and age.

 

[Mister Emu]

What if you know some people think drinking is wrong, but you don't believe it is?

I don't believe drinking is a problem. Alcoholism however is, and if you do not believe it, then you need to know that it is, bad for the health, bad for the mind, bad for those around you, bad for driving.

"Nobody should have that feeling" - yet many do (some would say most).

"...should take it in stride, or just ignore it." - I would bet my life that this would not be how it was received.

Should being the key word, should. I am an idealist(all my personality tests say so ) so I would like to hope we would .

But how that message is conveyed is critical. Maybe as importantly, most people (when being informed of their shortcomings) don't need to be told that "God says it's wrong - and you're going to hell for it".

I agree, ranting about brimstone and hellfire doesn't get anyone anywhere. Telling someone that if they continue on their path(regardless of whether or not it is true) they will goto hell just scares people away.

Thanks for the reply Emu,

No problem, in return thank you for yours.

PS - the minigolf game is addictive as heck.

Oh, yes it is. I thought I was through with it, then you beat me.

 

[Bastet]

Lousiana screwed up though. It should be noted that they failed to allow many sections of New Orleans - the homosexual area - to vote by not getting the machines to MANY of the precincts on time. Purposely, too, because these are the votes which would have been anti-amendment.

The amendment could also be considered illegal because it has too many goals.

http://www.civilmarriage.org/article.php?story=20040923212000336
http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=2323129
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/18/louisiana.gaymarriage.ap/

etc.


Isn't that nice of them! To make sure it passes, they denied many, MANY people the right to vote.

Yeah, I knew about that, but I didn't want to get into a rant about it here (you should have heard me when I first read about it). :bonk:

 

[Pah]

I didn't find the actual words of the amendment on the Internet - anyone have them?

-pah-

 

[Bastet]

I didn't find the actual words of the amendment on the Internet - anyone have them?

-pah-

http://www.legis.state.la.us/
It took some searching, but see how you go here, pah. http://www.legis.state.la.us/

 

[Pah]

http://www.legis.state.la.us/
It took some searching, but see how you go here, pah. http://www.legis.state.la.us/

Thanks - you're a dear

-pah-

 

[Bastet]

Thanks - you're a dear

-pah-

Glad to help.

I found the exact wording:

"To provide that marriage in this state shall consist of the union of one man and one woman, that legal incidents of marriage shall not be conferred on a member of any union other than such union, and that the state shall not validate or recognize a legal status identical or substantially similar to that of marriage for unmarried individuals or any marriage contracted in any other jurisdiction which is not the union of one man and one woman."

http://www.legis.state.la.us/election2004/amendments.htm

 

[Jaymes]

I don't believe drinking is a problem. Alcoholism however is, and if you do not believe it, then you need to know that it is, bad for the health, bad for the mind, bad for those around you, bad for driving.

So responsible, safe drinking isn't bad?

... man, I need to quit with the talking in circles thing.

Point being that just because someone thinks something's wrong, it doesn't mean they have the right to make other people comply with their thoughts. And until God comes and says "Homosexuality is a sin," people aren't going to be totally convinced.

Hell, even then people would still do it. Part of that pesky free will, eh?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

"To provide that marriage in this state shall consist of the union of one man and one woman, that legal incidents of marriage shall not be conferred on a member of any union other than such union, and that the state shall not validate or recognize a legal status identical or substantially similar to that of marriage for unmarried individuals or any marriage contracted in any other jurisdiction which is not the union of one man and one woman."

Can't you just feel God's love? I mean c'mon now people - nothing says "God loves you" better than a little state sponsored bigotry. :retarded: :retarded: :retarded:

TVOR

 

[Jaymes]

Can't you just feel God's love? I mean c'mon now people - nothing says "God loves you" better than a little state sponsored bigotry. :retarded: :retarded: :retarded:

TVOR

I know I feel God's love when I think about how the only place in the land of the free I can get married is Massachusetts!

 

[Bastet]

I know I feel God's love when I think about how the only place in the land of the free I can get married is Massachusetts!

And only then if you actually live there. *shaking finger* "Don't think you can just go for a day trip and get a quickie wedding, missy! Oh, no no - it's not that easy." :sarcastic