charlie sc
Well-Known Member
I’m curious, what gives you the right to tell Muslims how they should interpret the Quran?
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Why is Islam so dangerous?
- Thread starter Raymann
- Start date
Yes and here is one website that speaks about it.
Hadith and the Corruption of the great religion of Islam | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)
Generally speaking if a Hadith supports fully the Quran then it can be accepted otherwise the only other condition where a Hadith may be accepted is if a Prophet Of God quotes it.
In my religion, Baha’u’llah quotes some Hadiths. As we believe Him to be a Manifestation of God then once He quotes it then it becomes no longer a Hadith but the Word of God.
So we don’t reject all and every Hadith but as we believe Muhammad was free from sin and error then we regard any saying that states otherwise is incorrect.
After Muhammad died many Hadiths were fabricated for selfish reasons to circumvent the laws of the Quran. For instance, the Quran only permits defensive military actions but a fabricated Hadith would state falsely that Muhammad was an aggressor to get Muslims to agree to embark on offensive conquests. But the real reason of the Umayyads and Abbasids was to gain wealth and power.
Islam died in many ways with the death of Muhammad.
It’s just my opinion. No one’s telling anyone how to believe. All are free to follow their own heart.
charlie sc
Well-Known Member
Your opinion can get you killed in an Islamic state.
charlie sc
Well-Known Member
Don't you think you're being extremely presumptuous and arrogant being so opinionated of Islam when you aren't a Muslim yourself?
Raymann
Active Member
Raymann said: ↑
Like many people, I have spent many hours researching on Islam after 9/11 happened.
I live in New York City so that was very close to me.
My research findings tell me Islam is a very dangerous religion.
The closer Islam gets to you the more dangerous it gets.
That seems to be a fact.
I have not written any notes and never kept track of my sources so it would be impossible for me to attribute all I learned to specific data and publications. I am not an islamophobe in the sense that I don't hate Islam and therefore my research is not based on bias sources. I try to get my information from multiple sources and I judge credibility purely on common sense.
I knew nothing about Islam prior to 9/11. I didn't even know Muslims are the members or believers of Islam.
I learned the Quran is the main book of Islam and the whole religion is based on this book which is supposed to be the word of God (Allah)
The book self proclaims that Muhammad (The prophet of Islam) received revelations during a period of 23 years.
These revelations from Allah were transmitted to Muhammad thru an angel (angel Gabriel).
All started one day when Muhammad was meditating in a cave (Hira) on the side of a mountain.
"Recite", said a voice to Muhammad.
You know the rest of the story.
Muhammad told what happened to his wife Khadijah who in turn told Muhammad to see her Ebionite cousin Waraqah ibn Nawfal, who could help interpreting what had happened.
Here's one of the many problems I have (believing) with Islam.
The fact that Muhammad had no idea who was the one passing those revelations (angel Gabriel) and the fact that angel Gabriel never said "I'm angel Gabriel and these revelations are the command of God (Allah).
The cousin of Khadijah who knew about Christianity and Judaism and the Bible was the one that convinced Muhammad that the voice was from angel Gabriel. That's a wild guess to say the least.
Only after this episode (and very conveniently) was that angel Gabriel revealed who he was and that the revelations were from Allah.
I believe Muhammad simply took advantage of the situation and went with the flow.
In other words Muhammad figure "if they think I'm a prophet and my hallucinations are revelations from Allah, fine, I can live with that".
From that day on he either kept hallucinating or (in my opinion) he created the new revelations using them to get ahead in his own life while creating one of the most popular religions in history.
Don't get me wrong, I believe Muhammad was not a prophet but I do believe he was an exceptional man.
He had to be very charismatic, very respected and very smart to get away with all this.
So those are the highlights of the results of my personal research.
I dedicated many hours getting deeper into the scriptures.
Muslims believe that the Quran is the word of Allah but they also believe that Muhammad is the human model to follow and everything he did in his life is taken as the right way of doing things.
The Hadith are a collection of Muhammad's life episodes. Every one of them tells a story about the life of Muhammad and it is very important because as I said they are examples of how in similar situations the followers of Islam should act.
There's a very important aspect of Islam to take into consideration and this is the need to rely on "Scholars".
Scholars are very important in Islam because they are the experts who interpret those passages in the Quran and Hadith that are difficult to understand to us people not trained in the original language of the scriptures and the use of the terminology at the time the revelations were collected.
The Quran presumes that the revelations are easy to understand and that the scriptures contain the perfect messages.
That is just not truth. The fact that different Scholars interpret and translate the Quran and Hadith in very different ways proves it.
This is one of the biggest challenges for Islam today.
The fact that the scriptures can be so easily manipulated and interpreted in order to satisfy some evil means is very concerning.
The fact that Muslims believe the revelations come directly from Allah gives no room for reformation.
How can you create rules that directly contradict the rules sent directly from Allah?
I think that pretty much answers the first question about how I did my research.
Let's begin with land grabbing.
The history of the world is filled with stories of people conquering somebody's land over and over and over.
What makes Islam dangerous in this particular regard is that Islam holds a grudge like any other civilization and ethnic group has done in the past.
Most Muslims are ready to bring the Crusades and Israel creation to justify why some of the violence from their peers is committed today. That's just incomprehensible to most westerners today. I don't see Jews carrying an eternal scar against Germans for what a lunatic did against them. Even if they would never forget I don't think they're planning on getting even if they had the chance.
So you think inequalities and poverty has something to do with Islamic violence?
I would partially agree with it but poverty and inequality is not just an Islamic problem and I don't see the Mexicans killing and bombing the Americans just because they grabbed a large portion of their land and somehow they feel the Americans are responsible for their poverty and problems.
See, I understand delinquency is a direct consequence of poverty but I don't understand why Islam (some Muslims) make it a religion problem or the consequence of past attacks against their religion.
When I said past attacks against their religion it could also include political and economic attacks against their religion.
When I say Islam I'm always aware that is only a few who commit the violence and not the huge majority.
Nevertheless the violence seems to keep coming from Islamic sources.
When I say violence I don't limit it to terrorism but I include a whole array of violence acts committed by Muslims around the world.
Some of these include:
Terrorism, forced conversions, genital mutilations, abductions, acid attacks, apostasy, social shaming, modern slavery, women oppression, gays discrimination, etc.
Like many people, I have spent many hours researching on Islam after 9/11 happened.
I live in New York City so that was very close to me.
My research findings tell me Islam is a very dangerous religion.
The closer Islam gets to you the more dangerous it gets.
That seems to be a fact.
My research is a personal research and I'm not a professional in history nor religion.
I have not written any notes and never kept track of my sources so it would be impossible for me to attribute all I learned to specific data and publications. I am not an islamophobe in the sense that I don't hate Islam and therefore my research is not based on bias sources. I try to get my information from multiple sources and I judge credibility purely on common sense.
I knew nothing about Islam prior to 9/11. I didn't even know Muslims are the members or believers of Islam.
I learned the Quran is the main book of Islam and the whole religion is based on this book which is supposed to be the word of God (Allah)
The book self proclaims that Muhammad (The prophet of Islam) received revelations during a period of 23 years.
These revelations from Allah were transmitted to Muhammad thru an angel (angel Gabriel).
All started one day when Muhammad was meditating in a cave (Hira) on the side of a mountain.
"Recite", said a voice to Muhammad.
You know the rest of the story.
Muhammad told what happened to his wife Khadijah who in turn told Muhammad to see her Ebionite cousin Waraqah ibn Nawfal, who could help interpreting what had happened.
Here's one of the many problems I have (believing) with Islam.
The fact that Muhammad had no idea who was the one passing those revelations (angel Gabriel) and the fact that angel Gabriel never said "I'm angel Gabriel and these revelations are the command of God (Allah).
The cousin of Khadijah who knew about Christianity and Judaism and the Bible was the one that convinced Muhammad that the voice was from angel Gabriel. That's a wild guess to say the least.
Only after this episode (and very conveniently) was that angel Gabriel revealed who he was and that the revelations were from Allah.
I believe Muhammad simply took advantage of the situation and went with the flow.
In other words Muhammad figure "if they think I'm a prophet and my hallucinations are revelations from Allah, fine, I can live with that".
From that day on he either kept hallucinating or (in my opinion) he created the new revelations using them to get ahead in his own life while creating one of the most popular religions in history.
Don't get me wrong, I believe Muhammad was not a prophet but I do believe he was an exceptional man.
He had to be very charismatic, very respected and very smart to get away with all this.
So those are the highlights of the results of my personal research.
I dedicated many hours getting deeper into the scriptures.
Muslims believe that the Quran is the word of Allah but they also believe that Muhammad is the human model to follow and everything he did in his life is taken as the right way of doing things.
The Hadith are a collection of Muhammad's life episodes. Every one of them tells a story about the life of Muhammad and it is very important because as I said they are examples of how in similar situations the followers of Islam should act.
There's a very important aspect of Islam to take into consideration and this is the need to rely on "Scholars".
Scholars are very important in Islam because they are the experts who interpret those passages in the Quran and Hadith that are difficult to understand to us people not trained in the original language of the scriptures and the use of the terminology at the time the revelations were collected.
The Quran presumes that the revelations are easy to understand and that the scriptures contain the perfect messages.
That is just not truth. The fact that different Scholars interpret and translate the Quran and Hadith in very different ways proves it.
This is one of the biggest challenges for Islam today.
The fact that the scriptures can be so easily manipulated and interpreted in order to satisfy some evil means is very concerning.
The fact that Muslims believe the revelations come directly from Allah gives no room for reformation.
How can you create rules that directly contradict the rules sent directly from Allah?
I think that pretty much answers the first question about how I did my research.
Yes to all your questions.
Let's begin with land grabbing.
The history of the world is filled with stories of people conquering somebody's land over and over and over.
What makes Islam dangerous in this particular regard is that Islam holds a grudge like any other civilization and ethnic group has done in the past.
Most Muslims are ready to bring the Crusades and Israel creation to justify why some of the violence from their peers is committed today. That's just incomprehensible to most westerners today. I don't see Jews carrying an eternal scar against Germans for what a lunatic did against them. Even if they would never forget I don't think they're planning on getting even if they had the chance.
So you think inequalities and poverty has something to do with Islamic violence?
I would partially agree with it but poverty and inequality is not just an Islamic problem and I don't see the Mexicans killing and bombing the Americans just because they grabbed a large portion of their land and somehow they feel the Americans are responsible for their poverty and problems.
See, I understand delinquency is a direct consequence of poverty but I don't understand why Islam (some Muslims) make it a religion problem or the consequence of past attacks against their religion.
When I said past attacks against their religion it could also include political and economic attacks against their religion.
When I say Islam I'm always aware that is only a few who commit the violence and not the huge majority.
Nevertheless the violence seems to keep coming from Islamic sources.
When I say violence I don't limit it to terrorism but I include a whole array of violence acts committed by Muslims around the world.
Some of these include:
Terrorism, forced conversions, genital mutilations, abductions, acid attacks, apostasy, social shaming, modern slavery, women oppression, gays discrimination, etc.
Riders
Well-Known Member
No I understood the original post as vlaming everything on Muslims and hey OP said Christians were all good and nice its not true.
Riders
Well-Known Member
Not anymore then Christianity. I was in a dangerous Christian cult.
Terrorism, forced conversions, genital mutilations, abductions, acid attacks, apostasy, social shaming, modern slavery, women oppression, gays discrimination, etc.[/QUOTE]
All of which except the mutilation were practiced by my old Christian cult.
Notanumber
A Free Man
Christians are not in the same league when it comes to threatening modern western societies.
Riders
Well-Known Member
Well its not true they are too, you were not a member of my old church and did not get to see the abuse of women. Your speaking as someone without experience, maybe you should speak about something you know about.
Hello. Good post.just a couple of points I wish to make. I’ve been a student of Islam and researching it now for about 45 years and still learning.
From sources I believe to be completely reliable I have found that
A) Muhammad did in fact receive a Revelation from God and the Quran is the Word of God
B) Muhammad was a true Prophet like Jesus, a perfect Being and free from error and sinless
C) As you stated that it’s not the majority and I agree which is why I believe this thread should have been called religious extremism is dangerous because if we look at history the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Siege Of Jerusalem where even babies were slaughtered after which praise was given to Jesus, the wars between Catholics and Protestants. Isn’t it more accurate and fair to say all forms of religious fanaticism are evil and dangerous? Have you read about the Dark Ages and the assassinations and poisonings and you could be killed if you were classed as being an infidel not by Muslims but by Christian Bishops?
D) I believe it’s justice to say the leaders of religion who have created division and wars for their own selfish fiefdoms are guilty of crimes against humanity as well as fanatics on ALL sides no matter which Faith.
But to single out the whole of Islam which comprises 1.7 billion peaceful innocent people I feel is a gross injustice and misrepresentation the truth when Christian hands in the past century alone have had their hands covered in blood and committed far more atrocities than any terrorist attack except they call it ‘collateral damage’. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were demolished not by Muslim terrorists but by the west which prayed before it committed one of the worst atrocities in human history. How many thousands of children were killed?
Blessing the Bombs
Both east and west need to reconcile their differences move on and learn to live in peace but to just blame one side especially after the Baghdad invasion which sanctions caused untold suffering is a gross misrepresentation of the truth.
I believe the majority of people are wonderful and that only the terrorists and murderers should be discredited not entire belief systems which do have billions leading a peaceful life in both east and west.
Audie
Veteran Member
Uh, no. Your understanding is poor.
I had never even heard of this holy banditry
before I read your reprinted here below, from you,
and started asking you just how this fits with
those "verses" about "peace" and only defending,
not attacking.
You've been dodging, making things up, changing
the subject, and now forgetting ever since.
I expect no better, there is no way to turn slag
to gold, nor Islam to a religion of peace.
loverofhumanity said: ↑
The Muslims were first attacked, persecuted, their businesses plundered and livelihood destroyed and some killed during 13 years of persecution in Mecca after which they fled to Abyssinia as refugees and given refuge by the Christian King Negus. The Meccans pursued them to Abyssinia intending to exterminate and commit genocide against the Muslim community. An assassination attempt was also made against Prophet Muhammad but failed.
Then they fled to Medina where the Medinians accepted Muhammad. After 13 years of being pursued and hunted down God revealed Sura 2:190 to defend only if attacked.
So the very first attacks and murders and the beginning of the war was started by the Meccans who would not permit freedom of religion to the Muslims as well as plundered all their possessions and exiled them homeless and penniless.
8:26
Call to mind how He gave you shelter when you were few in number and were oppressed in the land, fearing that the enemy would kidnap you. But He provided you a safe asylum,
In a war the Meccans started with intent to exterminate the entire Muslim community attacks on caravans became a war tactic to disrupt flow of goods and supplies which were to be used to attack Muslims.
Audie
Veteran Member
The gem in all that gravel is your mention of
the dark ages. See, the dark ages were a long
long time ago, in Christianity.
Islam is still in the dark ages. That is kind of an
important difference.
And BTW, "whataboutism" is not really admirable.
In your case we have sure, Islam does things like
putting a prisoner in a cage and then pouring gasoline
on him. BUT! Whatabout, like, the inquisiiton?????
Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument, which in the United States is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.
Impressive research, no doubt. My country has long been suffering from so-called muslim terrorism. Yet, I do not believe that it is Islam and Quran that are at the root of the problem. Infact Quran has the following teaching:
Chapter (2) sūrat l-baqarah (The Cow)
Yusuf Ali: Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.
So, I cannot agree to your sweeping conclusions that it is the scripture that is behind terrorism. Scripture is clear that mankind is one. Yet those who see differences see that on account of their own hatred. This is, I note, the theme in all religions.Yusuf Ali: Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.
....
Now, please consider the following data and answer one question given at the end.
1. USA and Russia are the largest arms exporters. And since 2007 USA has left behind competition to a distant also ran.
2. It has come to light that US arms sold to Saudi Arabia and UAE are transferred to militant groups.
Yemen: inquiry finds Saudis diverting arms to factions loyal to their cause
'I traced missile casings in Syria back to their original sellers, so it’s time for the west to reveal who they sell arms to'
Saudi Arabia, UAE gave US arms to al-Qaeda-linked groups: Report
3.Fatalities on account of terrorism has increased manifold since 2001, with the advent of 'War on Terror'. Below you can do real research based on real data.
Terrorism
In 2000, fatalities in the whole world due to terrorism was 4400. And in 2014 it was more than 44,000. But out of this 44,000, more than 80% casuaties took place in Iraq, Afganistan, and Syria, all countries where Civil war is raging and where USA is invoved.
4. GTI, 2016 report concluded the following:
http://economicsandpeace.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Global-Terrorism-Index-2016.2.pdf
- Ninety-three per cent of all terrorist attacks between 1989 and 2014 occurred in countries with high levels of state sponsored terror – extra-judicial deaths, torture and imprisonment without trial.
- Over 90 per cent of all terrorism attacks occurred in countries engaged in violent conflicts.
- Only 0.5 per cent of terrorist attacks occurred in countries that did not suffer from conflict or political terror.
- Terrorism is more likely to occur in OECD member countries with poorer performance on socio-economic factors such as opportunities for youth, belief in the electoral system, levels of criminality and access to weapons
.............................................................................................................................
Please also answer a question. Bin Laden was a Saudi Arabian. Why US had to invade or intervene in Afganistan, Iraq, and and also in Syria? These countries were most secular in west asia. Now they are the germination centres of hatred.
...
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Audie
Veteran Member
Impressive research, no doubt. My country has long been suffering from so-called muslim terrorism. Yet, I do not believe that it is Islam and Quran that are at the root of the problem. Infact Quran has the following teaching:
Chapter (2) sūrat l-baqarah (The Cow)So, I cannot agree to your sweeping conclusions that it is the scripture that is behind terrorism. Scripture is clear that mankind is one. Yet those who see differences see that on account of their own hatred. This is, I note, the theme in all religions.
Yusuf Ali: Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.
....
Now, please consider the following data and answer one question given at the end.
1. USA and Russia are the largest arms exporters. And since USA has left behind competition to a distnt also ran.
2. It has come to light that US arms sold to Saudi Arabia and UAE are transferred to militant groups.
Yemen: inquiry finds Saudis diverting arms to factions loyal to their cause
'I traced missile casings in Syria back to their original sellers, so it’s time for the west to reveal who they sell arms to'
Saudi Arabia, UAE gave US arms to al-Qaeda-linked groups: Report
3.Fatalities on account of terrorism has increadsed manifold since 2001, with the advent of 'War on Terror'. Below you can do real research based on real data.
Terrorism
In 2000, fatalities in the whole world due to terrorism was 4400. And in 2014 it was more than 44,000. But out of this 44,000, more than 70% casuaties took place in Irad, Afganistan, and Syria, all countries where Civil war is raging and where USA is invoved.
4. GTI, 2016 report conclued the following:
http://economicsandpeace.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Global-Terrorism-Index-2016.2.pdf
Please consider these data. I believe that terrorism is a deep problem borne out of many political-economic-social-human problems and should not be reduced to a single cause.
- Ninety-three per cent of all terrorist attacks between 1989 and 2014 occurred in countries with high levels of state sponsored terror – extra-judicial deaths, torture and imprisonment without trial.
- Over 90 per cent of all terrorism attacks occurred in countries engaged in violent conflicts.
- Only 0.5 per cent of terrorist attacks occurred in countries that did not suffer from conflict or political terror.
- Terrorism is more likely to occur in OECD member countries with poorer performance on socio-economic factors such as opportunities for youth, belief in the electoral system, levels of criminality and access to weapons
.............................................................................................................................
Please also answer a question. Bin Laden was a Saudi Arabian. Why US had to invade or intervene in Afganistan, Iraq, and and also in Syria? These countries were most secular in west asia. Now they are the germination centres of hatred.
...
I see you too rely on whataboutism.
As for your verses, you will possibly be aware
that the "bible" and the "koran" are both open
to a very wide range of interpretation.
Both can be and have been used to justify
horrendous acts, and, as inspiration for
wonderful things..
Whenever "islam" gets around to leaving the
dark ages behind, it will either evapourate
and leave only a bad memory, or, it will
catch up with the 21st century and be a
force for good
Meanwhile, quit whining and see if you can
work on reform, not trying to convince people
that "Islam" is something it is so obviously
not.
FragrantGrace
If winning isn't everything why do they keep score
I never stated the Hadith is the Qur'an. I know better as a former Muslim.
The Qur'an does not testify of the character of Muhammad. The Qur'an, which translates to mean simply, "to read", is believed to be the revelations of Allah.
While the Hadith is what can be said to be the journal of Muhammad.
Muhammad was in no wise perfect. And even as a Muslim I knew this because there is nothing in Islam that leads us to believe that. Muhammad was chosen to receive Allah's revelations. He was in no wise perfect however.
Rather than wing it I would hope you would commit to study what Islam is. And is not, as you example you know more of the latter than the former.
Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)
FragrantGrace
If winning isn't everything why do they keep score
Nonsense!
FragrantGrace
If winning isn't everything why do they keep score
Charlie didn't enlighten us. Charlie posted nonsense.
No, no, no. Wikipedia isn't a valid source. I can edit an entry in Wikipedia and it will go unchallenged until their fact checkers get around to it so as to check the source material and either remove my entry, or let it remain.
Notanumber
A Free Man
I hope you reported your old church to the authorities. If they could have responded without being called racist or islamophobes, I am sure they would have done so.
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