Why is it hard for "white people" to acknowledge racism from other white people?

[Stevicus]

Got your attention right?

This perennial question has been on my mind considering my co-workers and I tend to discuss socio-political issues. What is common outside the internet is, when white nationalists do things terrible towards people of color, and when we (we as people of color) draw attention to the issue of racism brought against us, thr comment automatically deflects "what about black on black crime?"

(Again there is no such thing as black on black crime, there is only crime, criminals of African-American origin do not attack other African-Americans based on race fyi).

Or as a reader of news articles and unfortunately a reader of yahoo articles, the comment section is filled with racism. I notice a lot of my fellow co-workers tend to ask stupid questions like "why do a lot of blacks complain about racism so much?"

I usually give off the sarcastic response stating that Jim Crow was only in the 1940's. I am 35, so the residual effects of racism are still there however I notice fellow white Americans don't want to discuss it in the sense of acknowledging the grievances of people of color.

Fast Forward to Trump's election

Charlottesville, and now recent the young African-American soldier who died and whose wife is speaking out, I am reading online and hearing some offline comments, about blaming Antifa and more recently online at least, the recently deceased soldiers wife.

I am curious as a 35 year old black man who has had to answer for what other blacks do, and who call out what other blacks do, why aren't white Americans doing the same? It seems like a pot calling the kettle black type situation.

Well, I suppose if one puts it into a larger perspective, a good portion of our nation's history has involved whites acknowledging racism of other whites, calling them out, challenging them - even before the Civil War took place. I'll admit that it hasn't always been consistent, and with some whites, it might come across as insincere or condescending. Some whites will try to prove that they're not racist by saying "some of my best friends are ______." Businesses often resorted to tokenism as a way of answering allegations of discrimination.

Or as a reader of news articles and unfortunately a reader of yahoo articles, the comment section is filled with racism. I notice a lot of my fellow co-workers tend to ask stupid questions like "why do a lot of blacks complain about racism so much?"

I usually give off the sarcastic response stating that Jim Crow was only in the 1940's. I am 35, so the residual effects of racism are still there however I notice fellow white Americans don't want to discuss it in the sense of acknowledging the grievances of people of color.

I think it may also be due to the fact that the country was never really honest with itself regarding the issue of racism and the overall history of America. It takes a special kind of whitewash to be able to acknowledge this country's past transgressions (and pass civil rights reforms) while still trying to convince the American public and the world that America was always founded on the ideals of freedom, liberty, and justice for all.

The same perception would hold that racism is "something that we used to do," but not anymore, now that we (whites) have all become enlightened and reformed (or at least, that's what everyone is supposed to think nowadays). Most whites will fall all over themselves in denial if ever accused of racism. Few whites will ever actually admit it, even if they're just talking among other whites.

This is why they might see the problem as just so incredibly rare that they find it difficult to believe that there would be that many complaints about it. Even with the notable examples which come up in the news, they are treated more as exceptions to the rule - a few "bad apples" and isolated occurrences. But there might still be the question of whether these are truly just a few bad apples or if it's indicative of deeper, growing problem?

 

[icehorse]

The theoretical solution to rid ourselves of racism is simply a generational "die out" I believe post-millenials and beyond will probably find ways to look beyond pigmentation and create a more "liberal" system of governance for all people. I assure you, you and I will not experience that reality in our lifetime. Until then racism ought to be addressed, and continually discussed it and create avenues to circumvent hate groups.

I'm mostly fine with that - but the OP had "white people" in it, and that's what I've been arguing against in this thread. Your last (bolded) sentence makes sense - it doesn't seem to rely on identity politics - hooray.

 

[YmirGF]

It's why news alternatives are preferable.

Rawstory, Alternet, etc.

Alternut? Seriously? *bursts out laughing*

 

[Augustus]

And as a black man, are you happy to be included in a group you don't have any option of quitting? I can yell you that as a white man, the concept of "white privilege" galls me. This gets back to the absolutely horrible, immoral idea of collective guilt. Identity politics would have us believe that no matter how ethical, compassionate, unbiased, generous, and purely I live my life, I must sign on for my share of "white privilege".

I can remember seeing an article titled "Black men are the white people of black people", break it down enough and almost everyone can have privilege compared to a more marginalised identity.

Which is, of course, why things should be conceptualised in terms of discrimination, rather than absence of discrimination being seen as a contemptible privilege for which people must hang their head in shame and grovel for absolution.

 

[Super Universe]

Ok so since you've taken political science and understand political leans then I'll forgive you in your mistaken post regarding "militant liberals throwing rocks." You understand that the idea of progressivism is about social reform. The idea that militant rock throwing is against the ideals of progressivism because it does not advocate the right to free speech as well as the right to assembly. However, it becomes an issue if speech turns violent so any group proclaiming liberalism (which I think a lot of young militant groups misinterpret) using violent tactics are merely extremists with misguided ideals. Conservatives have a habit of ascribing violent tactics especially in light of recent events as a "liberal." When it comes to dangerous ideas even though an individual has a skewed belief (in my opinion) I do not care so long as you do not incite violence or touch me and you can say whatever you want.

You said: "Your co-workers brought up the black on black crime issue. You argue that there is no black on black crime, that there is only crime."

Ok, I see you read that but you missed the part where I also said: " my co-workers and I tend to discuss socio-political issues." When discussing socio-political issues then spans on a variety of other topics besides racism, but apparently your mind seemed to have focused mainly on "black on black crime." That (black-on-black crime) is merely one topic out of many) issue is not the main focus however when discussing race relations, the typical response I've noticed by some whites is that many tend to deflect from the criticisms of their community as we see in the following statement made by you:

"African Americans do not attack people simply because they are black? Maybe that is true but they do attack white people for being white."

Just to finally solidify my point according to the national review:

"There’s no such thing as “black-on-black” crime. Yes, from 1976 to 2005, 94 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders, but that racial exclusivity was also true for white victims of violent crime—86 percent were killed by white offenders. . . ."

Read more at: 'There's No Such Thing as Black-on-Black Crime'

As for what you posted subsequent to the black-on-black crime stuff regarding "black on white" crime, we must ask when it comes to so-called black on white crime is the criminal activity done on the basis of race or was it because the victims were white and that the crime was merely based on criminal activity? So-called black on white crime is called "hate crime" so you would have to produce evidence that there is a growing epidemic of hate crime and discern it from regular criminal activity. But let us see if there is more black on white:

"According to the 2015 FBI hate crime statistics, the latest available, there were 613 anti-white-related crimes out of 5,850 total cases. That's around 10.5 percent of all reported hate crimes, and within the yearly average, federal numbers show.

By comparison, the FBI reports there were 1,745 anti-black hate crimes or about 30 percent of all reported incidents. Jews were the most targeted religious group that year and were victims of 11 percent of all hate crimes. It's not clear how many anti-Jewish hate crime victims also may have been attacked because of their race........

If you read further in the article:

"The FBI does classify attacks based on disability as a hate crime. Federal numbers show 88 incidents related to attacks on disability in 2015.

In addition to underreporting, Levin said strong federal data of the race and ethnicity of assailants is incomplete because of the lack of consistent reporting.

The 2015 FBI data showed that of the 734 total reported offenses committed against whites — a single incident could have multiple offenses like assault or theft — 46 percent of those were committed by blacks.

In contrast, of the 2,125 reported offenses committed against blacks, 58 percent of those who committed by whites."

See:Crimes against whites equals small percentage of hate crimes, FBI statistics show

Your fox news link does not prove that the crime was race based. You need to produce actual data to demonstrate hate crimes against whites:

Race/Ethnicity/Ancestry: 3,310 4,029 4,216 3,196
Anti-White 613 734 789 681
Anti-Black or African American 1,745 2,125 2,201 1,605

See:Table 1


Clearly you are wrong in the stats considering anti-white crime as the above shows there is more anti-black crime when compared to anti-white crime. Again, the crime has to be proven as racially motivated not a simple crime where the victim is just a random person. Alas, this is not the thread concerning that, this is about what I stated in the beginning. You're continual intent to deflect will be ignored by me. If you want to discuss that, make a thread about it.

"When are blacks going to apologize to the Jews for enslaving them in Egypt 2,500 years ago?"

This isn't a discussion about apologies this is a discussion about people of Caucasian descent checking people who are blatantly racist and a fight against white supremacy.

Do I understand the idea of progressivism is social reform? YOUR idea of progress is not the same as my idea of progress. I don't believe that the white people should be hostage to black people forever because of the mistakes of the past. Today's value's are not yesterday's values. All groups of people treated other people horribly.

Rock throwing is against the ideas of progressivism? Not according to the Black Bloc it isn't. Things are not anywhere nearly as strictly defined as you are trying to make them out to be.

I missed the part where you said that your co-workers and you tend to discuss socio-political issues? I did not miss it. It's a statement about a very broad area. It's not specific enough to discuss. And, it's basically you trying to sound smart.

Black on black crime is not the main focus? Right, we're not supposed to bring it up.

White people tend to deflect the criticisms on their community? And black people don't? What about Mexican people, do they defend their people?

There is no black on black crime? But you post a link that says that 94% of black victims were killed by blacks. So, how is that not black on black crime? And, that does not take into account robbery, car jacking, drug dealing, rape, and assault.

It's true that most criminals commit crimes against their own race. That does not mean there is no such thing as black on black crime or white on white crime. You're just trying to put the focus entirely on white people who are racist against black people.

I have to produce evidence that there is a growing epidemic of hate crime against whites? So how much is acceptable to you? How much are we supposed to be okay with?

The FBI hate crime statistics says that there were 613 anti-white hate crimes and 1,745 anti-black hate crimes? How many crimes against whites were not considered hate crimes? I would bet the four black robbers who invaded white homes in the link I posted above were not considered hate crimes even though the black guys were from black areas and drove 30 miles to the hills just to rob richer white homes. Also, how many go unreported? I never reported getting any of my bicycles stolen or my lunch money stolen or my bus pass stolen or my halloween candy bags stolen by black kids.

You think white people don't have any bad experiences with black people, or, you think we are just supposed to take it.

This is a fight against white supremacy? How are you going to fight that? Are you going to stop driving the vehicles we invented? Are you going to stop using the airplanes we invented or computers or musical instruments, or the electronics we've invented and manufactured. Are you going to stop using our medicine, or the internet or our food, or our clothing, or our transportation network or our insurance or our banks and investment companies or our school systems and books and on and on and on.

Are you only going to use things from Africa?

 

[Thief]

What argument? I'm posing a question, if you choose to ignore a clear question then it becomes a reality of blindness.

your op presents a discussion......an argument
you and your coworkers discuss the matter
and now you have brought the matter ....here

I've been blind.....seven days

and I have an above average iq

I just wear sunglasses because I like to

 

[Thief]

Not my problem you look like a female, but you're still white and still benefit from things I can't. But your anecdote does not represent the 44 million African-Americans that experience racism daily even without strolling "down the block."

well if they would pull up their pants
and stop walking as if one of their shoes is missing a heel.......

 

[Revoltingest]

The problem I have with these discussions is your response is as if I'm actually saying it. For example in your last post you said:

"
So....you've been discussing how terrible things are for black folk (& for you), & how racist
we white folk are. What good has it done to tell us about how we caused your victimhood?
Instead, it seems that we're just becoming inured to your complaining about it."

I never said white folks are terrible, your interjecting that without even having a discussion with me about the subject at hand. If all you've perceived from this entire thread is me "rambling" you're more than welcome to not participate in the discussion.

Note the difference between quotes (unaltered) & inferences.
And I didn't claim that you said the underlined portion.

To discuss racism & solutions, I recommend a different approach...not starting
out with white folks' failure on 2 fronts (their racism, & their failure to discuss it).
Who wants to be part of a 'discussion' where they're the singular cause?
This invites more than eye rolling....also addressing black community failings &
culpability. Instead, try something more neutral & perhaps more specific.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

BLM while once having just motive has become a laughable group that can be dismissed at this point.
Antifa is just a terrorist militia pushing their ideology under the guise of fighting some vague threat also
a few people of color. I know many who argue against it.who are of color. by know I mean I can link their video channels.
it's a small percent who buy into your ideas. small enough that it requires much evidence to take seriously.

and no they exist due to different causes. Antifa due to the propagation of social justice, BLM due to a police shooting. which in and of themselves are rare and normally provoked or easily explainable. so their largest pillar has eroded. and who are there main backers now? billionaire football players who take a knee? get real no one takes them seriously. at least anyone not running for democratic election.

RAZA i know nothing about though good to see that they have a group too, though it has even less justification when they can't even control their own cartels and want to complain about how my people run my government

More ad hominems. I really cannot take you serious at this point. I mean you have damn anime in your signature. Nice chatting with you!

 

[DavidFirth]

I'm sure glad I'm not in this argument. Like wow.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Well, I suppose if one puts it into a larger perspective, a good portion of our nation's history has involved whites acknowledging racism of other whites, calling them out, challenging them - even before the Civil War took place. I'll admit that it hasn't always been consistent, and with some whites, it might come across as insincere or condescending. Some whites will try to prove that they're not racist by saying "some of my best friends are ______." Businesses often resorted to tokenism as a way of answering allegations of discrimination.




I think it may also be due to the fact that the country was never really honest with itself regarding the issue of racism and the overall history of America. It takes a special kind of whitewash to be able to acknowledge this country's past transgressions (and pass civil rights reforms) while still trying to convince the American public and the world that America was always founded on the ideals of freedom, liberty, and justice for all.

The same perception would hold that racism is "something that we used to do," but not anymore, now that we (whites) have all become enlightened and reformed (or at least, that's what everyone is supposed to think nowadays). Most whites will fall all over themselves in denial if ever accused of racism. Few whites will ever actually admit it, even if they're just talking among other whites.

This is why they might see the problem as just so incredibly rare that they find it difficult to believe that there would be that many complaints about it. Even with the notable examples which come up in the news, they are treated more as exceptions to the rule - a few "bad apples" and isolated occurrences. But there might still be the question of whether these are truly just a few bad apples or if it's indicative of deeper, growing problem?

In commenting on the bold, I would say going back, we can concur with the white abolitionists who did help free slaves and fast forward to the civil rights era there were white allies who exist even today. But if we look on a larger scale it is not enough to get the discussion going on a larger scale. I made it clear earlier that the young rag tag group Antifa although I like their zeal, I disagree with some of its members using violence against people. But you're right, as a whole, as a country it is hard to look at the ugly demon in the mirror and confront it. But if I could state a saying by Edmund Burke:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

I think that point was lost in the sh*t storm of deflection by some posters. the main point is there are social injustices that occur and if one remains silent of that injustice then injustice will continue to flourish and we will be in a continuous cycle. U.S. society is a melting pot and our success depends on the diverse minds that exists within the pot. We must be able to look at our actions and critique each other of those actions if they cause pain and disruption. I think for myself as an observer, it is frustrating having to discuss intra-community issues with others from the outside without being told to "get over" my grievances. These insensitivities that exist are the very problem of dialogue. But great post!

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I'm mostly fine with that - but the OP had "white people" in it, and that's what I've been arguing against in this thread. Your last (bolded) sentence makes sense - it doesn't seem to rely on identity politics - hooray.

I placed quotations around the identifier to denote the key subject. I think the title was more problematic for some.

 

[Thief]

I don't think the topic is about white people

and I have been accused of being blind.........
yeah right

 

[Nakosis]

Wait...

You're looking for present data or historical data? Why are you looking for data to acknowledge that a problem exists? I'm but only one man, but I eho the sentiments of millions of people in the U.S. about this.

That's kind of what I do. Evaluate a problem based on data. It's a personality fault.

 

[Stevicus]

In commenting on the bold, I would say going back, we can concur with the white abolitionists who did help free slaves and fast forward to the civil rights era there were white allies who exist even today. But if we look on a larger scale it is not enough to get the discussion going on a larger scale. I made it clear earlier that the young rag tag group Antifa although I like their zeal, I disagree with some of its members using violence against people. But you're right, as a whole, as a country it is hard to look at the ugly demon in the mirror and confront it. But if I could state a saying by Edmund Burke:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

I think that point was lost in the sh*t storm of deflection by some posters. the main point is there are social injustices that occur and if one remains silent of that injustice then injustice will continue to flourish and we will be in a continuous cycle. U.S. society is a melting pot and our success depends on the diverse minds that exists within the pot. We must be able to look at our actions and critique each other of those actions if they cause pain and disruption. I think for myself as an observer, it is frustrating having to discuss intra-community issues with others from the outside without being told to "get over" my grievances. These insensitivities that exist are the very problem of dialogue. But great post!

I think some of it may be the result of a growing lack of empathy and sensitivity in society overall.

The late, great George Carlin had a good deal of insight into what makes our society tick, and I thought this piece sums up quite a lot about the attitudes of the generations living today:

A lot of these cultural crimes I've been complaining about can be blamed on the Baby Boomers, something else I'm getting tired of hearing about...whiny, narcissistic, self-indulgent people with a simple philosophy: "GIMME IT, IT'S MINE!" "GIMME THAT, IT'S MINE!" These people were given everything. Everything was handed to them. And they took it all: sex, drugs, and rock and roll, and they stayed loaded for 20 years and had a free ride. But now they're staring down the barrel of middle-age burnout, and they don't like it. So they've turned self-righteous. They want to make things harder on younger people. They tell 'em, abstain from sex, say no to drugs; as for the rock and roll, they sold that for television commercials a long time ago...so they could buy pasta machines and stairmasters and soybean futures! They're cold, bloodless people. It's in their slogans, it's in their rhetoric: "No pain, no gain." "Just do it." "Life is short, play hard." "**** happens, Deal with it." "Get a life." These people went from 'do your own thing' to 'just say No'. They went from 'love is all you need' to 'whoever winds up with the most toys wins'. And they went from cocaine to Rogaine. And you know something, they're still counting grams, only now it's fat grams.

 

[Nakosis]

Because the media doesn't mention everything, only what it wants to mention. There are plenty of stories happening around the globe that never make it to the mainstream media.

I would think that if these crimes could be associated to a specific white supremacist group why isn't the government more active in going after them?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

That's kind of what I do. Evaluate a problem based on data. It's a personality fault.

So what what exact data do you want to see?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I don't think the topic is about white people

and I have been accused of being blind.........
yeah right

Look at stevicus' comment. He exactly gets it.

 

[Thief]

Look at stevicus' comment. He exactly gets it.

Carlin was a comedian
his job as such.....to demonstrate a juxtaposition

and the quote you point at is not the topic you chose

try responding to the posts I made......all of them

 

[Nakosis]

So what what exact data do you want to see?

Apparently it's not there or what is there is different than what I expected to see.

Most racial crime is cause by people unaffiliated with a specific white nationalist group. This idea of systemic racism is vague and there is no specific target for this accusation.

Without being able to specifically identity the actual cause of the problem you can't come up with a workable solution.

These individual who commit these terrible crimes, they are caught and dealt with. What else do you want?

It's like you're experiencing a terrible in you back and rightly are complaining about it. However until you identify the knife stuck in your back, you don't have a solution for fixing the problem.

So we need to identify the specific source of this racism. Until that happens, there's nothing anybody is going to be able to do about it.