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Why is it *necessary* to believe (as a Christian) that the Bible has no errors?

Rise

Well-Known Member
Thank you for this! Yes, I can't help but wonder if there were valuable epistles omitted and why? If that was part of the full story so to speak, why omit them? Truthfully, if you feel that the Holy Spirit has touched you, then Jesus is real to you. In a way that reading mere stories about Him, will ever give to a reader. It is good to read the Bible, as there are valuable insights and moral truths to gain, but I don't believe Genesis for example, is literal, but I can see the point of the story just the same. Before leaving Christianity, I had only the Bible and the Catholic Church to guide me, and now...the Holy Spirit guides me. Call it an awakening of sorts, but at the end of the day, that is where one's faith walk should lead...to an experience of faith, and not a mere deciphering of what others thought the faith was to mean.


Actually, those books can still be read if you want to. But there are good reasons why they aren't in the canon, which I will elaborate on.

First I would like to define that "canon" means "rule". It is the standard by which we judge what is true. Any other revelation or writing is to be measured against the canon.

The books that made it into the canon were those which were known to be from early church leaders in the apostalic era.

The Shepherd of Hermas was known to have not been written until long after the apostles were gone. It was considered beneficial to read; but could never be considered canon because of it's late date.

Some like the Epistle of Barnabas were not believed to have been written by an apostalic source. It is probably not the Barnabas referenced in Acts, but was written by another Barnabas after the time of the apostles.

In the same way; writings of early church fathers like Clement were considered useful to read but could not be put on par with original apostalic writings as the rule by which other teachings and revelation are measured.

That is why you sometimes find writings like Clement or Hermas in some codex Bibles - It has always been common practice throughout church history for some bibles to include noncanonical books that were considered useful or edifying to read. Often they were put at the back of the codex. They were not intended to be considered on par with canonical scripture.

There was probably never a specific epistle to the Laodiceans in the first place. If you read Colossians 4:16 you can see that Paul is telling Colossae to send a copy of this letter to Laodicea, and in turn says a letter will be sent to Colossea from Laodicea. This very well could be referring to another of Paul's letters that had been passed to Laodicea from another church with the intention that they would copy it and forward it to Colossae. This was no doubt a common thing in the early church, where letters and gospels were copied and passed between church communities. Colossians in particular is a letter very focused on outlining overall doctrine that would be most important for all churches to have; as opposed to some other letters which were more pastoral (focused on bringing specific correction to specific issues within a church). This is also why it is speculated that perhaps the letter the Laodiceans had in their possession was the letter to the Ephesians, because that is also another overarching doctrinal letter that was likely meant to be passed between churches from the moment Paul wrote it.

Katzpur makes reference to a second epistle of Jude and other letters to the Ephesians; but I am not sure where he's getting that from. I've not yet come across anything that would suggest such things existed. I'd like if he could explain where he got that idea from.

The third letter to the Corinthians never had any widespread or early witness in Christian tradition or writings. We only have 4th century beliefs in the Syrian church that it was authentic, but they abandoned this belief not long after that based on their interaction with other regional churches (this is an example of the kind of decentralized self correction that probably took place in other instances). It was never included in the Syriac translation of the Bible before that either. You could still read it today if you want to, but I see no reason to believe it was authentic. It probably doesn't contain anything that would contradict the truth of the new testament anyway.

The Wisdom of Solomon would be considered the old testament, so it doesn't have much bearing on a discussion about the formation of the new testament canon. Roman catholic and orthodox churches today consider it useful to be read and even secondary canon, but do not put it on the same level as canonical scripture for the purpose of determining doctrine and truth.

Slight differences in early canon lists exist - but that is understandable given the decentralized way in which the scripture was copied and transferred. Authentic writings were recognized as such in the community they were received in, and then copied and passed on, but not all communities received all the writings at the same time. They would verify with other churches which writings were authentic, which is why many of the canon lists we have are in response to false writings being created long after the time of the apostles.

Ultimately, and more importantly, the same books in our new testament are accounted for and represented in these lists and recognized as scripture.
It actually gives us quite a lot of confidence in the texts; because within the early lists, compilations, and writings of the early fathers we don't see any outright heretical books like the gnostic gospels and other obvious forgeries.

Only one list makes reference to the Apocaylpse of Peter, and in that very list it says it is disputed as canonical because many don't allow it to be read in church.
However, nothing in the Apocalypse of Peter is going to change the way we view the Gospel, Jesus, or other truths in the new testament. It's not a gnostic or heretical work. So whether or not you want to believe it's canonical wouldn't really change much about the truth of the new testament. I think there's some useful things in there, but I also find other aspects of it questionable.

Revelation is well attested to have been received universally and accepted as canon by the early church and early fathers. It's objections came much later and were limited.
Jude is well referenced in the 2nd century by early church fathers and canon lists.
2 John has significant 2nd century reference as well.

Hebrews was well accepted, but in some areas it was much later disputed only because they weren't sure who wrote it. However, most in the early church said Paul had written it. We also have a 2nd century collection of Paul's letters which contains Hebrews in it.
It makes sense as why he would not state himself as the author when you realize in the book of Acts that the Jews in Jerusalem started a riot intending to kill Paul.
If Paul were to write an overall statement of faith and defense of the Gospel aimed at the community in Jerusalem; then it would make perfect sense why he would omit a greeting in order to not have the personal controversy surrounding him prevent the Jews from listening to the content contained within the letter. Paul was without a doubt one of the most, if not most, qualified person in the early church to write a document like this - not just because of his apostalic calling and high level of revelation through his relationship with the Holy Spirit, but also because he combined that with an incredible grasp of the Hebrew scriptures and Jewish law.

James and 2 Peter have allusions in the early church father's writings, but along with 3 John there is no direct reference to them in canon lists until the 3rd century. However, later writings give us a clear picture that they were widely accepted and used in the churches.

There are only a handful of new testament books that were disputed in certain areas at certain times, and of those the weakest evidence would be for only 2 Peter, 3 John, and James.
I do believe they are canonical, being an accurate witness to us of divine truth. However, even if one wanted to believe they aren't, we can still rest assured in the fact that all of the essential truth contained in the new testament does not rest on these books as their sole witness. They add depth and understanding to the truth of the new testament, but we can find the same essential truths contained in the rest of the new testament scripture.

The fact that we have the four gospels, acts, and most of Pauls writings indisputably attested to across all regions from the earliest recorded times is more than enough to firmly establish everything we believe is true. That is not to say we have any reasonable basis for questioning the canonicity of the books that don't have universal early attestation across all regions, but simply to say that we have so much universally attested to from the earliest writings that it is more than enough to establish all the fundamental truths of the Christian faith beyond doubt.
 
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psychoslice

Veteran Member
I believe there are many errors within what is called the bible, even Jesus himself pointed out errors within the so called old testament, I feel that those who cannot except this. are frighted, they are so emotionally involved with their beliefs, that they will not except anything that goes against their treasured beliefs, sad really.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
@Rise - one more thing. I never said I don't think the 'written word' has no value. The title of the thread is...why is it necessary to believe that the Bible has no errors? Meaning, that maybe somewhere along the way, the message was tainted a little. Not necessarily on purpose, but just because we are human. u know?

Do you believe in God?


That question was one I faced. How did I know the Bible's account of who Jesus was and what he did was accurate?
In my spirit I felt it was true - but my mind needed to research the facts to give me confidence that I could trust Jesus is who the Bible says he is.
( Acts 17:11 Searching out the scripture to see if something is true is regarded as a noble thing).

Why is Biblical truth important? Error and sin can be a barrier to us having relationship with God. They can also have deadly and eternal consequences.

An example from my own walk:
I said the sinners prayer when I was around age 18-19 after some relatives took me to church. Over several years I had gone from athiesm to agnostism to seeking to finally being a believer..
However, I had no grounding in what the truth was. I didn't really know what I was suppose to believe or do. I didn't read the Bible much, if at all. I didn't attend church aside from a few rare occasions. So not much in my life actually changed as a result of this.

A friend of the family who was into various new age viewpoints gave me a book and recommended I read it. It claimed to be a book that represented the truth of who Christ was and would teach you how to see miracles happen.
It was, in actuality, demonic deception mixed with some truth. Not only was it designed to fill the reader's mind with lies, but it contained in it spiritual "exercises".
I eagerly read this for a couple weeks, and felt good about it at first - But things turned for the worse after a couple weeks. I had unknowingly opened doors through this material to invite the demonic in. I suffered greater depression, was tormented in my sleep, and became suicidal almost immediately after.

Had I been more grounded in the truth of what the Bible says about Jesus, and believed it, I never would have been so easily decieved by something that had elements of truth mixed with obvious lies.

I spent a long time looking for the cure to my mental, emotional, and spiritual affliction in other places that didn't help me. I finally turned to Jesus.
I learned more about the Gospel and Jesus. I started to wrestle with whether or not I actually believed everything the Bible said about Jesus.
I knew in my spirit that the preaching I heard about Jesus was true, and I wanted him, but I needed to research more before I could whole heartedly put my trust in what the Bible said about him.
I came to the point where I was going to put my faith in the truth of what the Bible says about Jesus and everything changed almost immediately after. I had more peace and understanding that grew over time.



I still had my doubts about Genesis at that time; But I wasn't going to let what I didn't know or understand prevent me from pursuing what I knew concerning Jesus. Over time I've found I have greater confidence in the whole of scripture.

You don't have to feel disqualified from attending a church if you don't believe it all literally at this point. It's not necessarily going to impact your salvation or relationship with God, depending on what part of the Bible you take issue with. Plenty of Christians have differing views on what happened in Genesis with regards to how we are suppose to interpret what we are reading.
In the same way, plenty of Christians have differing views on to interpret the specifics of end times prophesy, but we can have differing views on that without denying Christ and rejecting the Gospel.

However, I will say that there's one interesting phenomenon I've noticed: Those Christians who operate most powerfully in the Gifts of the Spirit, and seem to enjoy the greatest level of communion with God, have always been those who take the Bible the most authoritatively and literally as truth. I've never seen a great healing evangelist who regularly witnessed all kinds of major miracles that was also wishy-washy about what they believed was true in the Bible. Faith plays a major role in that.

Christians can still have differing views about what happened during Genesis without rejecting it as truth. But those Christians approach Genesis with the perspective of giving it the benefit of the doubt - Meaning; they assume there is an accurate way of understanding Genesis and then seek to find that answer rather than just assuming it's wrong and moving on. The later kind of attitude makes it too easy to just reject anything in the Bible we dont understand instead of taking our confusion as an invitation to dig deeper and ask the Holy Spirit for illumination on what the scripture means.


To further answer your original question:
Saying the Bible has some slight errors in transmission and translation would be very different from saying the Bible's content was never the truth of the Holy Spirit moving through men to begin with. The extent of the former is debateable and ultimately we know enough about the Bible's transmission that it doesn't undermine our trust in the text.
The later is a very damaging because it rejects the idea that the Bible ever did represent God's revealed truth to us; so it can never be the basis by which we judge what we think is truth.

Why is it a problem to lack a standard for judging truth?
One of the dangers of embracing the idea that the Bible is the erronous product of man is that inevitably it results in people throwing out the parts of the Bible that they don't like or agree with; so it's very easy for them to fall into deception that leads to harm of themselves or others.

This behavior can take many forms:
Sometimes people don't want to give up a sinful lifestyle, so they'll find reasons to ignore the parts of the Bible they don't like.
Sometimes people are uncomfortable with certain things they see about Jesus or God in scripture; like not having a perspective that sees love in God's justice, so they choose not to believe in any of the parts of the Bible that deal with the judgement of sin.
Even worse, many cults deny who Jesus is and change the way we are saved; and they always do this by rejecting some aspect of the scripture. It might be certain passages, entire books, or having their own non-biblical books which contradict what is written in scripture.

If the Bible is God's truth, then attempting to edit what parts of the Bible one does not want to accept puts one in danger of engaging in idolatry - Because idolatry is basically attempting to create God in the image one wants him to be instead of accepting God for who he is. It is, at it's core, a rejection of God's truth and a desire to have our idea of truth become God in our life.

That would be counter to what the Bible tells us, which is that we are to let God's truth change who we are instead of trying to raise our truth above who God is.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The books that made it into the canon were those which were known to be from early church leaders in the apostalic era.
The earliest canon known to exist is from that of Marcion, which consists of an edited version of Luke and the letters of Paul. The Didache and the Shepard of Hermas were known to be "from the early church" and were excluded based upon far less than Revelations.

The Shepherd of Hermas was known to have not been written until long after the apostles were gone.
No, it wasn't, because as Papias attests to are earliest records show that NONE of the gospels can be attested to until the 2nd Century CE.

It was considered beneficial to read; but could never be considered canon because of it's late date.
It was considered canonical, because of its early data.

In the same way; writings of early church fathers like Clement were considered useful to read but could not be put on par with original apostalic writings
They determined what were the apostolic writings.

They were not intended to be considered on par with canonical scripture.
They were explicitly considered canonical.
Slight differences in early canon lists exist
As well as major. It took some 5 centuries for there to emerge a consensus as to what the canon should be. Currently included books are among those which were highly contentious (in particular, Revelations).
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
If science is required where does FAITH come in? What religion do you belong to? Christianity REQUIRES FAITH for instance. Islam requires FAITH as well. Faith is defined specifically in Christianity a certain way and NOT in your local DICTIONARY --people who need crutches-- run to. Something is off if you need science to believe in God. How good is this SCIENCE you claim to have? Is it good enough to a professional scientist like Laurence Krauss who is atheist? Will your science work on him?
at the point of singularity.

go there and choose....
Spirit first or substance?

science can lead you to that 'point'
your decision will be of faith.....even though science led you to it
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Absolutely NOT! It is clear to any Christian or Muslim that FAITH and SCIENCE do not co-exist. For if you have Science then you WILL wait until you are AWARE of something to be true as opposed to God telling you x is true. He believes "All unicorns are White animals" is a false claim because he can't sense verify it. So how will he believe God if God says homosexuality is a CHOICE and not genetic. Even if being gay was genetic, God could turn a gay person straight by HIS power if he had FAITH what is Thief to do? How would he verify that? Faith by definition requires belief and confirmation of what you are told without proof (your senses verifying anything). Faith is you believe what you can't verify right here right now as far as the Kingdom of God ONLY --not applicable to fields outside of that.
Faith is just about believing what you're told? What about when Jesus said to judge a tree by its fruit? Doesn't that imply Jesus wants us to verify what is going on?

Faith is I accept whatever God says...
Is there a difference, then, between faith and gullibility? Where is the line drawn in belief? Not angry, just honestly trying to get at how verification seems to be bad per you.

Jesus made it very clear he was not pleased with that thinking.
Then maybe we should worship God, who let Gideon yank Him around with several experiments to prove it was really God talking to him?

First I would like to define that "canon" means "rule". It is the standard by which we judge what is true. Any other revelation or writing is to be measured against the canon.
Which humans determined what the measurement was, though? Perhaps the omitted books were God's will and humanity, in its sin, chose the other books instead for its canon?

Slight differences in early canon lists exist - but that is understandable given the decentralized way in which the scripture was copied and transferred. Authentic writings were recognized as such in the community they were received in, and then copied and passed on, but not all communities received all the writings at the same time. They would verify with other churches which writings were authentic, which is why many of the canon lists we have are in response to false writings being created long after the time of the apostles.
There are forgeries, though, included in the canon that scholars, using techniques beyond "the church said it was ok" to determine if an author likely said something, said are forgeries based on objective data.

Only one list makes reference to the Apocaylpse of Peter, and in that very list it says it is disputed as canonical because many don't allow it to be read in church.
So canon is less about God's will and more about church opinion on the popularity of the books?

Hebrews was well accepted, but in some areas it was much later disputed only because they weren't sure who wrote it. However, most in the early church said Paul had written it.
Via first-hand witnessing him writing it or forensic study of his penmanship or what?

A friend of the family who was into various new age viewpoints gave me a book and recommended I read it. It claimed to be a book that represented the truth of who Christ was and would teach you how to see miracles happen.
It was, in actuality, demonic deception mixed with some truth.
Chick tracts? God, those things are terrible... :)

I eagerly read this for a couple weeks, and felt like it was helping me. But things got worse after that. I had unknowingly opened doors through this material to invite the demonic in. I suffered depression, was tormented in sleep, and was suicidal, almost immediately after.
Sorry to hear that. Many people become suicidal after losing loved ones, being abused constantly, or something. Didn't realize reading would garner a similar response.

However, I will say that there's one interesting phenomenon I've noticed: Those Christians who operate most powerfully in the Gifts of the Spirit, and seem to enjoy the greatest level of communion with God, have always been those who take the Bible the most authoritatively and literally as truth.
I see the opposite, plus there are the studies that show many non-Christians know the bible better than Christians, ESPECIALLY the literalists.

My late grandfather read the bible, passage by passage, throughout each year, and when I questioned him about something, he didn't know it had happened. (I was amused when a pastor told his congregation about the story of Hebrews asking for meat and God gave them a flock of dead birds. My grandfather took it as a heart-warming tale of God's mercy. By the looks of the faces on the congregation, only a few really knew the NEXT part of the story where everyone who ate the meat died....)

One of the dangers of embracing the idea that the Bible is the erronous product of man is that inevitably it results in people throwing out the parts of the Bible that they don't like or agree with; so it's very easy for them to fall into deception that leads to harm of themselves or others.
But people do that anyway. Pick a subject: slavery, abortion, creationism, generosity ... everyone picks out the verses that confirm their beliefs (you yourself said that it was AFTER being told of Jesus and such that you read the bible, which means you read it through the lens you were given by others).

If the Bible is God's truth, then attempting to edit what parts of the Bible one does not want to accept puts one in danger of engaging in idolatry - Because idolatry is basically attempting to create God in the image one wants him to be instead of accepting God for who he is.
Isn't saying the bible is God's Truth, instead of, oh, I dunno, God being God's Truth, idolatry?
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
The earliest canon known to exist is from that of Marcion, which consists of an edited version of Luke and the letters of Paul.

That's a misleading statement without historical context.
Marcion was never attempting to assemble a list of books that were known by the church to be canonical; but instead was rejecting books that were already considered canonical by the church because they disagreed with his personal theology.
Maricon also rejected the entire old testament on top of that!

Marcion didn't make his list until about the middle of the 2nd century.
Yet we know from early church writings prior to Marcion (Clement, for example) that the gospels and other books that he rejected were already accepted and used by the church as scripture.
We also know they regarded the old testament as scripture and quoted it as such.

Polycarp referred to Marcion as the first born of satan. He was probably the first major heretic the church had to deal with; and early church writings show them dealing with exposing his lies for what they were.

Because of those facts, nobody would ever try to suggest that Marcion's canon ever represented the overall church's view of what was canonical. Quite the opposite, his canon was defined by his rejection of the books the church already accepted.


The Didache and the Shepard of Hermas were known to be "from the early church" and were excluded based upon far less than Revelations.

The Muratorian Fragment, believed to have originated around 170 AD, lists Revelation as canon.
Revelation was universally held by the early fathers to have been written by the apostle John himself.
From the 2nd century we have ample reference to Revelation and acceptance of it's canonical status from Papias (via Eusebeus), Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Melito, and Clement of Alexandria.

That same Muratorian fragment also specifically says that the Shepherd of Hermas was not canon and should not be read publically (a right reserved for scripture); because it was not written by an original apostalic authority and was not even written during the apostalic age. This fragment holds that Hermas was written sometime in the first half of the second century by the brother of the bishop of Rome. Two other church sources from the 4th century echo that belief of authorship.

We have no attestation of the Didache ever being considered canonical scripture by the early church. It is a very practical book about personal conduct and church leadership so it was no doubt useful to read; but it was obviously not considered on par with canonical scripture by the early church.
Some also say there is evidence for a 2nd century date, even later than Hermas and Barnabas, which would have by itself excluded it from canonicity.


No, it wasn't, because as Papias attests to are earliest records show that NONE of the gospels can be attested to until the 2nd Century CE.

I see no evidence of Papias referencing the Shepherd of Hermas.

Your statement is also wrong; Material from the gospels can be seen directly referenced and quoted by the very earliest church writings - Papias, Clement, and Ignatius. 1 Clement is believed to have been written at the end of the 1st century.

We don't start to see church writings make reference to the Shepherd of Hermas until the second half of the 2nd century and 3rd century.
While it is clearly well regarded during that time, and even treated as inspired to some extent; it very simply was not accepted as canon because it did not meet the criteria of having it's origin in the apostalic age from a recognized authority. That is the same reason Clement's writings could not be accepted as canonical scripture by the church even thought they were highly regarded.

Saying that we have no earlier attestation of the gospel besides Clement, Ignatius, and Papias around 90-110 AD is also misleading because the fact is we simply don't have any preserved church writings earlier than the Clement (possibly around 95AD) that aren't already included in the New Testament. In fact, the Revelation of John could have been written contemporaneously with 1 Clement.
So if you want anything earlier than Clement then you end up with the new testament and the gospels themselves. Considering that, it's really not a surprise that we don't have other other writings sandwiched in the relatively short gap between the end of the apostalic age and the next generation represented by leaders like Clement and Ignatius.


They determined what were the apostolic writings.

Clement did not determine what the apostalic writings were. Nor did any other particular church father do that. There is absolutely no evidence of that happening.
What we see from recorded church history is that the church communities knew who wrote these letters when they received them and then passed that truth down to the next generation in that church community. They also communicated from one church to another what they knew to be true.

Furthermore, the very idea you put forth goes against what we know about early church structure: It would have been impossible for any single authority in the early church to force any kind of standard of what was canonical from the top down upon the greater Christian community spread across the Roman empire. They were a persecuted minority with no centralized leadership structure - with no power to enforce anything even if they were to have central leadership.

That's the reason you see Christians debating in the 2nd century against heresy instead of just releasing some authoritative decree and forcing people to burn the books that aren't canonical. Fighting lies with expositions of truth and praying the truth would win out in the hearts of believers was all they could do in their position.

The fact that the Christian communities maintained basically the same tradition of what was scripture in a decentralized community spread across the Roman empire is actually a great testimony to the reliability and authenticity of the new testament canon.

They were explicitly considered canonical.
That's not true.
Eastern orthodox considers Wisdom of Solomon to be of secondary authority, not on par with primary canonical scripture.
The Roman catholic church took the same position throughout it's history until the the Council of Trent in the 16th century.

It is not a uncommon phenomenon in church history, or even Jewish history prior to Christ for that matter, for some works to be regarded as useful to read, inspired to some extent, or accurate reflections of truth, yet still not obtaining to canonical status as the rule by which we are to judge all other revelation and teaching that comes after it.

The Shepherd of Hermas would be a good example of that. Men recognized it as having some genuine marks of inspiration to the point where it was worth referencing, but ultimately it was held in a secondary position of authority compared to the apostalic writings.

As well as major. It took some 5 centuries for there to emerge a consensus as to what the canon should be.
A spurious way of phrasing the issue to begin with.
It would be completely wrong to suggest that the majority of the new testament was somehow in flux and without consensus for hundreds of years when only a handful of books could even be suggested as disputed.

The truth is that we see most of the new testament canon witnessed to by the writings of Polycarp in the early 2nd century. Furthermore, we have the Muratorian Canon from the later half of the 2nd century giving us a canon that is basically what we have now minus only a handful of books.

The core of the new testament has early and frequent attestation among the early church writings, even if there is minor variance in regions.
We can see from this that there was obviously a great consensus about was, and was not, genuine and authoritative scripture from the earliest days .

You can't even assume that a book was disputed just because it was omitted from a list either (as with the Muratorian fragment saying nothing about Hebrews) because some books appear to have taken more time to be dispersed to certain regions. Considering that the Muratorian fragment makes a point of clarifying what is not canonical out of the books that are known, the most likely explanation is that Hebrews was just not known to it's writer at that point. It was known, however, to other 2nd century writers who quote from it; so we know it did not just pop into existence at a later date. It is even well referenced as early as the time of 1 Clement. This disparity would be best explained by geographical differences; where some books took longer to see proliferation. However, the fact that the vast majority of new testament books (including the four gospels, acts, and most of Paul's letters) saw widespread proliferation across the empire with such level of agreement from the earliest times gives us great confidence in the veracity of the new testament canon.

Currently included books are among those which were highly contentious (in particular, Revelations).

Revelations was not highly contentious in the 2nd century. There's not even a hint of that.
Revelations is even more well attested to in early church writings than than most other books of the new testament. It was also universally held to have been written by the apostle John by in 2nd century.

The first objection doesn't appear until the 3rd century, yet those objections remained limited in their scope compared with the existing widespread acceptance of the book and support by the rest of the church leadership. By the end of 4th century the issue it's canonicity is no longer debated, just as it was not debated prior to the 3rd century.
 
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Logikal

Member
Faith is just about believing what you're told? What about when Jesus said to judge a tree by its fruit? Doesn't that imply Jesus wants us to verify what is going on?


Is there a difference, then, between faith and gullibility? Where is the line drawn in belief? Not angry, just honestly trying to get at how verification seems to be bad per you.


Then maybe we should worship God, who let Gideon yank Him around with several experiments to prove it was really God talking to him?


Which humans determined what the measurement was, though? Perhaps the omitted books were God's will and humanity, in its sin, chose the other books instead for its canon?


There are forgeries, though, included in the canon that scholars, using techniques beyond "the church said it was ok" to determine if an author likely said something, said are forgeries based on objective data.


So canon is less about God's will and more about church opinion on the popularity of the books?


Via first-hand witnessing him writing it or forensic study of his penmanship or what? . . .


Faith is a topic specifically about the relationship between humans and GOD. I did not say human to human. For human to human people find it practical to sense verify things; that is utilize sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell, etc. When it comes to a superior being like GOD this will fail some of the time. As a result of a method failing some of the time like 50% of the time this is not certainty. So to make the claim "all of God's attributes are immediately sense verifiable" false. Some might be!

Anyway faith is about that relationship. So doing what you are told in relation to GOD because Faith is about putting God a higher priority than you currently have him on your priority list. Some of us have God so far down on the list we don't comprehend some universal concepts. Faith is getting closer to GOD basically and you cant do this by physical measures alone. The brain must comprehend concepts FIRST, and then your body ought to mimic the thoughts and concepts in the brain. Thus, Christianity is NOT about works. People confuse the concept because there is scripture that expresses the works are how other people see us -- by our fruits. Fruits in the context expresses Christian behavior and demeanor as well as our senses see oranges in a tree and we know it is an orange tree. If the thought process in the brain is wrong then the physical works mean close to nothing. The concepts in conjunction with works means SOMETHING. That is, there is a MENTAL component AND a PHYSICAL at the same time. Having only one of the two is not enough.

The faith is confusing because it is a concept and practical people are not too good at understanding concepts because the senses can't be used to verify it. The closest I can come to explaining faith is using an analogy of RESPECT or LOVE. (How about both love and respect combined?) If YOU the reader are in a leadership position how would you feel if your subordinates did not do what you asked? A parent with a disobedient child could also substitute here. Would you not feel DISRESPECTED if you tell Joe to do x and he mouths off at you. The relationship in the example is BROKEN. Compare that to the Marines who charged up Hamburger Hill --when the enemy had higher ground shooting down at them -- only on a command from a Sergeant. They respected (or feared the consequences of punishment) the Sergeant so much did what they were told DISPITE THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE this order was erroneous. The practical person would think this is STUIPID and be objectively right. Many Marines lost their lives basically for nothing following that order. The admiration for following orders is the concept of LOVE to some Christians and RESPECT to those "practical folks". The reasoning goes like this: If you LOVE your mother or Father you will not do things that will displease them and shame them (such as do drugs, commit crimes, go into porn, etc.) Like wise, we ought to put GOD first like we do with the people or persons we RESPECT or LOVE in the highest regard. Those are humans who have faults. The difference is God will not lead us to meaningless things such as charging up Hamburger Hill for no objective reason. There was no consequence that changed anything physically once the hill was taken. God looks out for you and is not like human beings who may have ulterior motives for getting you to do something. Your point of gullible will never happen with God because he loves you too much to do that to you. But the feeling is not reciprocated if you did not know this already. God is higher than any human by his nature and will never backstab you unlike some human beings that are relatives, parents, friends, strangers, etc.
Faith is the toughest thing to do in Christianity because NO ONE has a perfect relationship with GOD. We all still sin as long as we live objectively. The only thing you can do is train to get better and be better than you have been in the past. Sort of like taking voice lessons or chess lessons. You will never be good enough never to learn everything there is about that topic completely. I could throw in Judo as an analogy to faith as well. (I like the pun.) There are over 40 judo throws. No one does ALL of the throws with the same speed, accuracy, power, intensity and so on! You might get your favorite 10 throws the same speed, accuracy and power and so on. That is if you are lucky to get that far. It takes a life time to objectively be THAT GOOD to get all of the throws the SAME LEVEL. Faith is hard to measure but we can compare two different people and the results each gets. No one human had faith to move mountains as Jesus said. No one will either and be here on the Earth for too long. No one's faith will ever be that good. All the faith in a mustard seed and live for eternal life would mean you would have no need for God. You take the physical over the conceptual and this is bad when discussing anything about God. God allows sin for us to recognize our place: as children and respecters of His will. The ideal scenario would be that all people will come around to only doing the will of GOD not because you HAVE TO, not because you fear punishment, but because it make you happy to please HIM. Objectively God knows some will never get around to it. In the world humans often do things for something in return when they treat others nice: they want to be treated nice in return. God treats us with LOVE no matter how many slaps, kicks and punches we throw at HIM. It is sort of like a father spoils his daughter because he LOVES HER. Even if she rebels he still has LOVE for her. He has nothing to really gain from showing the daughter LOVE. Life would go on if he stopped loving her wouldn't it? The same should be with God.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
All good but the motivation.
We should do good...but not to please God.

we should do good as it has become our nature to do so.

then the servant will be found....doing what he should.
 

Logikal

Member
All good but the motivation.
We should do good...but not to please God.

we should do good as it has become our nature to do so.

then the servant will be found....doing what he should.

This makes no sense given the concept I just described. You and all humans are born into sin. Sin is not a VERB in this context, but a NOUN that describes a NATURE. That NATURE is built to be at ODDS with God's NATURE.
So you doing good for yourself or to show off in front off other humans is YOUR AGENDA. That has nothing to do with God's will for you. You are putting God really really low on the priority list I spoke of above.
Faith is a measurement how close to God you are. We all are at different points. No one is extremely close because of our SIN NATURE while we are alive. The conceptual definition of SIN is doing something against God's will; that is, God expressed a concept and YOU are saying or thinking something CONTRARY to what God expressed. God says DO NOT DO x. You turn around and think something like x is OKAY as long as nobody gets hurt physically. The physical carried out behavior is the ACT of SIN or the verb portion of SIN. There is a conceptual component AND a physical component. many people only know about one of them.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
First I would like to define that "canon" means "rule". It is the standard by which we judge what is true. Any other revelation or writing is to be measured against the canon.
Which humans determined what the measurement was, though?
The measurement is God's truth.
Truth only comes to man via God's revealing of it.
Human agency has never had a place in determining what is truth.
Scripture penned by the human hand only carries the authority of God if it presents God's word and truth to us.

2 Peter 1:21
John 16:13
2 Peter 3:15
1 Corinthians 2:10-13

You might then ask, how does man recognize the truth of God when it is revealed?
The Holy Spirit in us testifies to what is true.

1 Corinthians 2:14-16
Romans 8:16
1 John 5:6-10
1 John 2:26-27
Hebrews 5:11-14

A related passge: Acts 17:11. The Bereans compare what Paul is telling them with what is already written in scripture to see if it lines up.

Related writings:
"We have known the method of our salvation by no other means than those by whom the gospel came to us; which gospel they truly preached; but afterward, by the will of God, they delivered to us in the Scriptures, to be for the future the foundation and pillar of our faith,"
-Irenaeus, 2nd century.

"They that are ready to spend their time in the best things will not give over seeking for truth until they have found the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves,"
-Clement of Alexandria, 2nd century.

Perhaps the omitted books were God's will and humanity, in its sin, chose the other books instead for its canon?
There was no process of picking and choosing by the early church. The first generation of apostles shared the gospel directly to new converts as they received it from Jesus, and wrote letters directly to the church body concerning spiritual truth.
The early church therefore knew where these writings had come from as first hand receipients and passed them around with the testimony of their origin.

The apostles wrote to the churches according to God's truth and revelation. There is also no assumption, and no evidence, that the apostles wrote things that were in error and therefore needed to be exluded from the canon via discernment on the part of the church body.
The only evidence we have of writings being rejected from the canon is because they did not have a genuine apostolic origin to begin with.

Only one list makes reference to the Apocaylpse of Peter, and in that very list it says it is disputed as canonical because many don't allow it to be read in church.
So canon is less about God's will and more about church opinion on the popularity of the books?
It was never an issue of simple popularity. Some books like Hermas were quite popular; yet due to not coming from an original apostalic source they were not considered the rule (canon) by which truth should be measured.

We don't have a record of why exactly the Apocalypse of Peter was rejected by some churches and recieved by others but we do know they did eventually come into agreement. Presumably they did not believe it was authentically from Peter.

We see a few instances of this happening in history at some points where false texts get some kind of following for a while in a particular region but eventually are abandoned when the greater church body helps to bring a more complete perspective to the issue (Like 3 Corinthians).

We also see the other side of the coin in church history where genuine books are prevented from being removed. When learned and influential men long after the time of Christ (typically the 3rd and 4th century) question or reject certain books (like Hebrews or Revelation) on an intellectual or personal theological basis, the larger church body holds fast to what was received through tradition and the Holy Spirit continues to witnesses to them the authenticity of the truth contained within. We see those books persist and grow in their support throughout the church in all regions until all accept them.

This agreement is also not presumed to be the work solely of human hands and human reasoning; but is instead believed to be the agency of the Holy Spirit moving through his church to help them recognize the truth.

The rapid unrestrained and decentralized dispersal of the authentic scripture made it necessary for this kind of correction to take place once false documents started appearing on the scene.
History shows us that, despite the proliferation of numerous outright heretical works, none of them were ever considered to be authoritative by the greater body of the church. Almost all of the works falsely assigned to the original apostles (the ones that weren't outright heresy in their content but also not authentic in their source) never gained any recorded acceptence by the church either - as evidenced by the fact that only a few even appear in regional canon lists or church writings of the 2nd century.
Only a handful gained acceptence in limited regions and were later dropped, and none of them would undermine the message of the authentic gospel; so it's not a major concern for followers of Christ because it shows that the integrity of the gospel message was preserved in the canon we currently have.

Hebrews was well accepted, but in some areas it was much later disputed only because they weren't sure who wrote it. However, most in the early church said Paul had written it.
Via first-hand witnessing him writing it or forensic study of his penmanship or what?
It was said to have been Paul based on the tradition passed down from the original churches.
The Syriac new testament from the 2nd century ascribes authorship to Paul.
Almost all ancient greek manuscripts we have ascribe authorship to Paul.
The book of Hebrews is also found bound in ancient collections of Paul's writings from the 2nd century.

Clement of Alexandria, in the 2nd century, said Paul was the author.
Origin also records in the early 3rd century that Paul was the author and that this tradition was handed down from the earliest church.

The content of the epistle tells us it had to have been written prior to the the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The eastern half of the Roman empire had always considered it authentic and authoritative, and knew by tradition who wrote it. This makes sense considering that the intended audience were the Jews - of whom most were located in Palestine, Egypt, and to a lesser extent Turkey.

That is not to say it was unaccepted in other areas. 1 Clement (Rome, around 95 AD) quotes from it.

Tertullian (From north africa, the western half of the empire) is said to reference Barnabas as the author, but he is alone in recorded history with this assertion. If anything, Barnabas may have penned a transcription of Paul's message just as Mark penned the preaching of Peter. This would be owing to the fact that the style of the writing in Hebrews is different than Paul's letter, yet the content and ending (which is the same way Paul ends all his letters) strongly re-enforce Paul as the source.

We might be led to assume that this letter was not as well dispersed in the more gentile western empire church, and as a consequence there was less existing tradition about it's origin, which caused doubts to arise based on that later.
Romans was written to this region by Paul and is far more applicable to gentile concerns than Hebrews.
Objections dont start to be recorded in the west until the 3rd century; however, the epistle has plenty of defenders in that period as well.
Ultimately they recognized the eastern traditions as authentic with regards to Hebrews.

I eagerly read this for a couple weeks, and felt like it was helping me. But things got worse after that. I had unknowingly opened doors through this material to invite the demonic in. I suffered depression, was tormented in sleep, and was suicidal, almost immediately after.
Sorry to hear that. Many people become suicidal after losing loved ones, being abused constantly, or something. Didn't realize reading would garner a similar response.
I wasn't just reading about something, but following exercises inside designed to invite something demonic in as a guide to truth.

You may not be aware that is a real aspect of the occult; and when Jesus and the disciples cast demons out of people they are not just using metaphor.

Ministers all over the world today will testify to the truth that the spirit realm described in the Bible is real, even if some more naturalistic Christians reject the idea.

However, I will say that there's one interesting phenomenon I've noticed: Those Christians who operate most powerfully in the Gifts of the Spirit, and seem to enjoy the greatest level of communion with God, have always been those who take the Bible the most authoritatively and literally as truth.
I see the opposite, plus there are the studies that show many non-Christians know the bible better than Christians, ESPECIALLY the literalists.
My late grandfather read the bible, passage by passage, throughout each year, and when I questioned him about something, he didn't know it had happened. (I was amused when a pastor told his congregation about the story of Hebrews asking for meat and God gave them a flock of dead birds. My grandfather took it as a heart-warming tale of God's mercy. By the looks of the faces on the congregation, only a few really knew the NEXT part of the story where everyone who ate the meat died....)

You seem to be trying to make a point that there are people who take the Bible as God's truth yet don't know what the Bible says that well. I ask you to take closer look at my post and recognize that such a point has nothing to do with what I said...

I was talking about people who see God's power manifest in this world and how that relates to their faith in the Bible as God's truth.

Look at all the great healing evangelists in the 20th century like John G. Lake. They saw God routinely do great miracles of healing and demonstrations of power and you find they all took the Bible as authoritatively God's word.
I listen to and read a lot of teaching from ministers around the world who see the same types of things happen today and I have never encountered a single one that doesn't believe the Bible is God's accurate word of truth to us.


One of the dangers of embracing the idea that the Bible is the erronous product of man is that inevitably it results in people throwing out the parts of the Bible that they don't like or agree with; so it's very easy for them to fall into deception that leads to harm of themselves or others.
But people do that anyway. Pick a subject: slavery, abortion, creationism, generosity ... everyone picks out the verses that confirm their beliefs
Some people pick and choose - Not everyone does.
People who love the truth and see the Bible as God's truth will take the whole of the Bible for what it says; without any desire to isolate verses and take them out of context in order suggest it says what they wish it would.

People who do twist scripture can usually easily be proven wrong with a proper contextualization of the passage, understanding of the original language, and harmony with the rest of scripture. The problem is if they don't genuinely seek and love truth, but just want to force the Bible to support thier ideas, then they don't care about sound exegesis of scripture.

2 Peter 3:16

There is a reason that every cult and false doctrine involves the rejection of some part of scripture; because the cogency of their position, which relies on taking isolated verses out of context and distorting the meaning of them, always fails when paired against the whole testimony of the Bible. Their only defense at that point is to start throwing out the authority of the verses and books that disagree with their ideas.

Galatians 5:17
2 Thessalonians 2:10
Romans 8:5-8
Romans 12:2

If someone doesn't love truth then they won't be able to see it or receive it - because they don't really want it.
People who seek to distort the Bible, with the intent of justifying their sin, love their sin more than they love truth.
A true seeker of God's truth is willing to die to themselves to become alive to Christ, willing to put to death their own mindsets in order to have their mind renewed to see things the way Christ does.

We can only approach the Bible with the perspective that God, through the Holy Spirit, has something to teach us and wants to see change about us.
If we approach it trying to plug our own ideas in, we're approaching it with the wrong motive and bad fruit will come of it.

(you yourself said that it was AFTER being told of Jesus and such that you read the bible, which means you read it through the lens you were given by others).
That's not true. I first read the bible, and read about it, through the lense of a syncretistic new age perspective (prior to surrendering to Jesus and choosing to trust that what the Bible said about him was true).
I was trying to discover the truth through my own analysis and reasoning of world religions and philosophy. I approached the Bible as something that might contain useful elements of truth,but did not know what to believe about many aspects of it. I was prone to just reject the parts that didn't make sense to me and fuse it with other ideas that seemed to make more sense to me.

For instance, the idea of reincarnation just made more sense to me. Logically from my perspective I thought that just explained what I saw in the world better.

I didn't drop that viewpoint overnight just because someone told me it wasn't true either.
But I was open to the possibility that I was wrong and had a teachable spirit. Gradually my mind was renewed through the reading of the Bible with an open heart. I came to realize not only the absurdity of the idea of reincarnation within the context of Biblical truth, but also how harmful such a viewpoint is to having an accurate conception of who God is, who we are, and what our created destiny is.

If the Bible is God's truth, then attempting to edit what parts of the Bible one does not want to accept puts one in danger of engaging in idolatry - Because idolatry is basically attempting to create God in the image one wants him to be instead of accepting God for who he is.
Isn't saying the bible is God's Truth, instead of, oh, I dunno, God being God's Truth, idolatry?
God defines what is true, every word he speaks is true; he is unchanging so his truth is eternal and unchanging.
The Bible, being an accurate recording of God's word, is truth.

So believing the Bible is God's truth is by definition not idolatry in any way. Just the opposite, we are commanded to keep his word. John 14:23

Idolatry would be defined as setting up some other truth in place of God's truth.
It also sets yourself up in the position of God, determining what is true and not true. Instead of asking the Holy Spirit to speak truth to you and being genuinely open to what you receive.

Holding to the Book of Mormon or other Mormon writings as being more accurate than the Bible would be an example of Idolatry. The former is a completely different view of who God and Jesus are, who we are, how we relate to God, along with what the origin and destiny of creation is.
Both cannot be true.
 
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Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Eusebius of Caesara, one of the most notable Church historians to have ever lived, described (in about 300 A.D.) a canon which included only twenty-seven of the books in today's New Testament. Hebrews, James, and 2 Peter where described as questionable, as were Jude and Revelation. In the fourth century, St. Gregory of Nazianzus continued to reject Revelation and states, "You have all. If there is any any besides these, it is not among the genuine [books]." The canon he set forth was ratified some three centuries later.

Today's New Testament has only twenty-seven books in total. So that canon actually included all books, of course, except for the Mormon books.

In 2nd till forth centuries there are the five main churches. A letter from the one in Egypt, possibly written to Eusebius, actually confirmed that the 27 books listed in that letter contained exactly the 27 books we have today in our New Testament.


As for OT, The 13 out of 24 books in Law and Prophets together with some books in the Writings were believed to be canonized during Ezra's presence. According to Josephus, there were 22 books out of 24 books were already canonized in his time. However, Josephus is not someone in the core circle of the Pharisees. The other 2 books may have already got passed in Sanhedrin to be part of the Canon before AD 70.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Today's New Testament has only twenty-seven books in total. So that canon actually included all books, of course, except for the Mormon books.
But as I said before, the Greek Codex Claromontanus, one of the most significant New Testament manuscripts, contains a list of the canonical books of the fourth century. That list did not exclude Philippians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians or Hebrews. So those books were added later on. Why weren't they considered canonical back in the early days of the Church. As for the "Mormon books," there are no "Mormon books" in the Bible Mormons use. We use the KJV and accept that it's as complete as its ever going to get. We also study from it extensively. The Book of Mormon is an entirely different volume of scripture entirely.
 

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
Holding to the Book of Mormon or other Mormon writings as being more accurate than the Bible would be an example of Idolatry. The former is a completely different view of who God and Jesus are, who we are, how we relate to God, along with what the origin and destiny of creation is.
Both cannot be true.
It sounds like you haven't actually read the Book of Mormon. Nothing in the Book of Mormon would preclude it from being the genuine record of Israelites in America. The opposite is true. The Book of Mormon is distinctly Israelite in origin. There is strong evidence that when the nations of Israel and Judah split, that separate traditions were kept by each, exclusive of the other. Their interpretation of Mosiac law is also slightly different. In every case, the Book of Mormon ignores Jewish tradition while quoting Israelite tradition. When Israel was conquered, some of its residents fled to Egypt, while others were taken as slaves. The state of Judah or Jerusalem then rejected some of the Israelite traditions, in what became known as the Deuteronomic Reform. The Brazen Serpent of Moses, for example, was taken out of the Temple and melted down. The statue of Asherah was taken out and burned. These symbols represented the Son of God and the Wife of God, both impediments to the monotheism that engulfed Judah. The Council of the Gods was also played down as Judah embraced monotheism. The Jews, in their wickedness, made a Rabbi equal in authority to a prophet. Like Christians of later centuries, they cut off the vine that nourished them, preferring the squabble of unenlightened men to the more sure word of prophecy. Such was the world that Lehi was born into. Lehi's son, Nephi, was selected like his ancestor Joseph, to be a king and ruler over his brethren. Nephi's brethren had a similar response to that of Joseph's brethren; they would not that their brother should rule over them. So who had the proper right of kingship? Judah, the firstborn, or Joseph, who was selected by God? It depends entirely upon whom one asks. It split the Israelites and it split the Nephites from the Lamanites.
Like Jeremiah, Lehi was called of God in a vision to call the people of Judah to repentance. Like Jeremiah, he angered those who would not believe. God came to him in a dream, and warned him to take his family and flee, that the Jews would try and take his life. These motifs are all biblical; God communicating to men through visions and dreams, commanding them to preach repentance, and to journey to safer lands once they were no longer safe. Lehi flees the country with his family, but is commanded to go back and get the brass plates. The brass plates contained the scriptures, including the five books of Moses, and the writings of many of the prophets. They belonged to a man named Laban, who was also a descendant of Joseph, and contained Lehi's geneology. One's geneology was a subject of unusual importance to both Jews and Israelites. Included in this tome of scripture were two books that were unknown to the modern world, The Book of Zenos and the Book of Zenock. These books both testify of Christ, that he would be the Son of God. The books in the Old Testament that mention the Son of God are almost non-existent, but here we have in the Book of Mormon the ancient Israelite tradition. The Book of Mormon is in complete accord with early Israelite traditions, in this regard, as noted by Christian Historian Margaret Barker.
At every step, as I read through the Book of Mormon, I find ancient Israelite custom, culture and symbology. It reaches to the naming of things, and even to Hebrew-type poetry.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
Nothing in the Book of Mormon would preclude it from being the genuine record of Israelites in America.

I could spend all day outlining the archaeological reasons why that is untrue; suffice it, however, to point out the irrefutable fact that DNA studies of every type have shown that the Native Americans are of east asian descent with no trace of Jewish ancestry. Mormon writings claim the Native Americans are primarily descended from Jewish exiles. Some might try to claim that the Jewish exiles were a small minority in an existing Native American population but that is not what the Book of Mormon actually claims - It claims the Lamanites were the principle race of North America and were descended from Jews. DNA evidence demonstrates conclusively that cannot be true.

Regardless, everything you posted is not even revelant to my post; because the topic I was addressing was the fact that there are contradictions on fundamental theological truths between Mormon writings regarded as scripture (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price) when compared with the Bible. The two opposing views of God, Jesus, creation, and salvation absolutely cannot be reconciled. One of them has to be wrong. So talking about the archaeological errors in the book of Mormon would ultimately be unnecessary for the purpose of this discussion because it doesn't change the fact that the doctrine of the Mormon church, derived from it's writings, is completely at odds with what the whole of the Bible says.

Christian view derived from scripture, both old and new testament (which is also consistent with the earliest church father writings at the turn of the 2nd century):
Jesus, the son; God the Father; The Holy Spirit; Are one God.
God is uncreated and eternal. Jesus, likewise, pre-existed before creation.
There is only one true God. Monotheistic.
God created the universe and everything in it.
God creates the souls of people.
The Father has never had a body of flesh and blood.
Jesus was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit while she was still a virgin, and she remained a virgin until the birth of Jesus.
God defines what the moral law is. Good is a reflection of who he is. Bad is rebellion against his ways. Jesus is Lord of the universe, ruler and judge.
We are God's creation. We will never be like God as the creator of the universe, author of life and law. We will always be dependent on him for our existence.
Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit was a rebellious tragedy that separated them and their descendants from God and resulted in their death. The effects of which Jesus came to rescue us from.
Jesus came to restore our relationship to God. His work is sufficient for this. We can only submit to and trust in His work on our behalf, unable to do anything to reach God on our own. Good works flow out of our new life in Chris, as evidence of being a new creation.
Our purpose for existing is for relationship with God, and to bear his image in the world.

Mormon view derived primarily from their own writings, in contradiction to the Bible:
God the father did not create the universe. The universe existed before him. He can only organize what is already in existence.
Souls are not created by God. They existed from eternity along with God. The just inhabit bodies that are procreated.
Jesus is not God. He is the offspring of God the Father, along with every other person and fallen angel (satan).
Moral law pre-existed before God the Father.
God the Father obtained his exalted status as the father of this planet by his adherence to the moral law that pre-existed him.
God the Father is just one God of an infinite number. Every person has the potential to become a God of their own planet by faithful observance of the law; filling the planet with their own offspring who will then worship them as their God. Inherently polytheistic.
God the Father had sex with Mary, impregnating her with Jesus.
Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit was a good and necessary thing, a part of God's plan.
The sacrifice of Jesus is not primarily about restoring our broken relationship with God the Father. Nor is it sufficient, because it must be paired with our obedience to law. Good works are not the result of a new life, but part of earning our new life.
Our purpose for existance is not relationship with God, but to attain to higher levels of divine existance to the point where we can become a God ourself and eternally procreate more children.

This is also a good illustrative answer to the original question of why it is important to believe in the truth of the scripture that has been given to us. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Truth. He will never reveal something that contradicts what he has already revealed as truth.
Mormon "scripture" paints a picture of a different God, a different Jesus, and a different salvation than new testament Christianity. If the Bible is the Holy Spirit revealed truth of God then the Mormon version of God cannot be true - It is a man created image of who God is suppose to be. It's an idol.

If we cannot measure supposedly new revelation against the existing revelation God has given us then we can be easily led astray into idolatry and destruction.
In Acts 17, the Bereans are commended as a more noble Jewish community than others who had heard the gospel preached because they took the time to search the scriptures, with an open heart to God's truth, to see if what Paul was preaching was true.
True revelation from God is marked by it's consistency with everything that has been revealed before. That is why you can see the truth of the new testament is consistent with the what was revealed in the old testament.
 
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rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
I could spend all day outlining the archaeological reasons why that is untrue; suffice it, however, to point out the irrefutable fact that DNA studies of every type have shown that the Native Americans are of east asian descent with no trace of Jewish ancestry. Mormon writings claim the Native Americans are primarily descended from Jewish exiles. Some might try to claim that the Jewish exiles were a small minority in an existing Native American population but that is not what the Book of Mormon actually claims - It claims the Lamanites were the principle race of North America and were descended from Jews. DNA evidence demonstrates conclusively that cannot be true.

Regardless, everything you posted is not even revelant to my post; because the topic I was addressing was the fact that there are contradictions on fundamental theological truths between Mormon writings regarded as scripture (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price) when compared with the Bible. The two opposing views of God, Jesus, creation, and salvation absolutely cannot be reconciled. One of them has to be wrong. So talking about the archaeological errors in the book of Mormon would ultimately be unnecessary for the purpose of this discussion because it doesn't change the fact that the doctrine of the Mormon church, derived from it's writings, is completely at odds with what the whole of the Bible says.

Christian view derived from scripture, both old and new testament (which is also consistent with the earliest church father writings at the turn of the 2nd century):
Jesus, the son; God the Father; The Holy Spirit; Are one God.
God is uncreated and eternal. Jesus, likewise, pre-existed before creation.
There is only one true God. Monotheistic.
God created the universe and everything in it.
God creates the souls of people.
The Father has never had a body of flesh and blood.
Jesus was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit while she was still a virgin, and she remained a virgin until the birth of Jesus.
God defines what the moral law is. Good is a reflection of who he is. Bad is rebellion against his ways. Jesus is Lord of the universe, ruler and judge.
We are God's creation. We will never be like God as the creator of the universe, author of life and law. We will always be dependent on him for our existence.
Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit was a rebellious tragedy that separated them and their descendants from God and resulted in their death. The effects of which Jesus came to rescue us from.
Jesus came to restore our relationship to God. His work is sufficient for this. We can only submit to and trust in His work on our behalf, unable to do anything to reach God on our own. Good works flow out of our new life in Chris, as evidence of being a new creation.
Our purpose for existing is for relationship with God, and to bear his image in the world.

Mormon view derived primarily from their own writings, in contradiction to the Bible:
God the father did not create the universe. The universe existed before him. He can only organize what is already in existence.
Souls are not created by God. They existed from eternity along with God. The just inhabit bodies that are procreated.
Jesus is not God. He is the offspring of God the Father, along with every other person and fallen angel (satan).
Moral law pre-existed before God the Father.
God the Father obtained his exalted status as the father of this planet by his adherence to the moral law that pre-existed him.
God the Father is just one God of an infinite number. Every person has the potential to become a God of their own planet by faithful observance of the law; filling the planet with their own offspring who will then worship them as their God. Inherently polytheistic.
God the Father had sex with Mary, impregnating her with Jesus.
Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit was a good and necessary thing, a part of God's plan.
The sacrifice of Jesus is not primarily about restoring our broken relationship with God the Father. Nor is it sufficient, because it must be paired with our obedience to law. Good works are not the result of a new life, but part of earning our new life.
Our purpose for existance is not relationship with God, but to attain to higher levels of divine existance to the point where we can become a God ourself and eternally procreate more children.

This is also a good illustrative answer to the original question of why it is important to believe in the truth of the scripture that has been given to us. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Truth. He will never reveal something that contradicts what he has already revealed as truth.
Mormon "scripture" paints a picture of a different God, a different Jesus, and a different salvation than new testament Christianity. If the Bible is the Holy Spirit revealed truth of God then the Mormon version of God cannot be true - It is a man created image of who God is suppose to be. It's an idol.

If we cannot measure supposedly new revelation against the existing revelation God has given us then we can be easily led astray into idolatry and destruction.
In Acts 17, the Bereans are commended as a more noble Jewish community than others who had heard the gospel preached because they took the time to search the scriptures, with an open heart to God's truth, to see if what Paul was preaching was true.
True revelation from God is marked by it's consistency with everything that has been revealed before. That is why you can see the truth of the new testament is consistent with the what was revealed in the old testament.

The DNA issue isn't the silver bullet that people pretend. First of all, the Book of Mormon never claims to be a history of all peoples in the Western world, only the Nephites, and very briefly the Jaredites. It doesn't give hardly any history of the Lamanites, who included all other races, and not just the descendants of Laman; it was a political designation, not a genetic one. The Jaredites were the founding population and probably did come from Asia. They certainly weren't Jews. The Nephites were not Jewish either, but Israelite, through Joseph, who married an Egyptian. So right off the bat, we have Nephi, who is distantly related to Ephraim, who was only half Israelite... without knowing anything about the genetic heritage in between the two. The Emory University study did find DNA that matched European or Northern Israelite among the Native Americans. The National Geographic study confirmed the finding. So we are finding exactly what we would expect to find. DNA supports the Book of Mormon.
The Scandinavian study showed that after only 200 years, the final population wasn't representative of the original population; random genetic lines were amplified, and others disappeared altogether. So once again, it supported the Book of Mormon, albeit indirectly. With the Book of Mormon we are talking about a time span of over 1400 years, with multiple population decimations of Native Americans occurring during that time period. The safest thing to say is that DNA cannot prove or disprove the Book of Mormon. All else is conjecture and theory.

Christian view certainly did not come from scripture, but from traditions, many thousands of competing and sometimes contradictory traditions. The uninspired vote of clerics shaped which traditions would be kept and which would be regarded as heresy. Bible books were amended and culled as necessary to support popular views. Most men couldn't even read, and the Bible was kept from most of those who could. It was only after the Bible was printed for the masses, that people imagined seeing the creeds of their respective traditions within it pages.

The word Trinity never appears in the Bible. It is true that Jesus said that he and his father are "one", but we must assume the same sense of the word when he says that all Christians should be "one" with him. The more plausible interpretation is that we should be in harmony with Christ as he is in harmony with his Father.

Monotheism was a late adaptation of Jewish belief. The Israelites originally believed in multiple gods, including a son of God and a wife of God. It astonishes me that Christians don't know who they are, and from whence their traditions came. By establishing himself as the Son of God, Jesus condemned monotheism.

Your synopsis of LDS belief is from a hostile source, and should not be relied upon. Mary was a virgin.

The Bible supports the idea that God did not create the universe. Read the 1st chapter of John. It explicitly states that Jesus only created the things that were created. That would be a pointless and misleading observation if he created everything. It also infers that he wasn't alone.

There are many references in the Old Testament that imply that God has a physical body. He walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam. Adam was made after his image. He was the "living" God who could see, hear, smell, etc. He stood on a sapphire platform and reigned from a throne in the heavens. The invisible everywhere-present unknowable god of philosophy is nowhere to be found. The Bible supports the Mormons over all other sects, in virtually all of their beliefs.

The idea that Jesus is the Son of God shouldn't come as a shock for a Christian. Do I really have to defend it? Lucifer was also a son of God, according to Job. Additionally, God asks Job where he was when the earth was created and "all the sons of god shouted for joy". So yeah - the Bible supports the Mormon view. The Mormon view makes sense of all the neglected verses that most Christians shy away from.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I could spend all day outlining the archaeological reasons why that is untrue; suffice it, however, to point out the irrefutable fact that DNA studies of every type have shown that the Native Americans are of east asian descent with no trace of Jewish ancestry. Mormon writings claim the Native Americans are primarily descended from Jewish exiles. Some might try to claim that the Jewish exiles were a small minority in an existing Native American population but that is not what the Book of Mormon actually claims - It claims the Lamanites were the principle race of North America and were descended from Jews. DNA evidence demonstrates conclusively that cannot be true.

Regardless, everything you posted is not even revelant to my post; because the topic I was addressing was the fact that there are contradictions on fundamental theological truths between Mormon writings regarded as scripture (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price) when compared with the Bible. The two opposing views of God, Jesus, creation, and salvation absolutely cannot be reconciled. One of them has to be wrong. So talking about the archaeological errors in the book of Mormon would ultimately be unnecessary for the purpose of this discussion because it doesn't change the fact that the doctrine of the Mormon church, derived from it's writings, is completely at odds with what the whole of the Bible says.

Christian view derived from scripture, both old and new testament (which is also consistent with the earliest church father writings at the turn of the 2nd century):
Jesus, the son; God the Father; The Holy Spirit; Are one God.
God is uncreated and eternal. Jesus, likewise, pre-existed before creation.
There is only one true God. Monotheistic.
God created the universe and everything in it.
God creates the souls of people.
The Father has never had a body of flesh and blood.
Jesus was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit while she was still a virgin, and she remained a virgin until the birth of Jesus.
God defines what the moral law is. Good is a reflection of who he is. Bad is rebellion against his ways. Jesus is Lord of the universe, ruler and judge.
We are God's creation. We will never be like God as the creator of the universe, author of life and law. We will always be dependent on him for our existence.
Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit was a rebellious tragedy that separated them and their descendants from God and resulted in their death. The effects of which Jesus came to rescue us from.
Jesus came to restore our relationship to God. His work is sufficient for this. We can only submit to and trust in His work on our behalf, unable to do anything to reach God on our own. Good works flow out of our new life in Chris, as evidence of being a new creation.
Our purpose for existing is for relationship with God, and to bear his image in the world.

Mormon view derived primarily from their own writings, in contradiction to the Bible:
God the father did not create the universe. The universe existed before him. He can only organize what is already in existence.
Souls are not created by God. They existed from eternity along with God. The just inhabit bodies that are procreated.
Jesus is not God. He is the offspring of God the Father, along with every other person and fallen angel (satan).
Moral law pre-existed before God the Father.
God the Father obtained his exalted status as the father of this planet by his adherence to the moral law that pre-existed him.
God the Father is just one God of an infinite number. Every person has the potential to become a God of their own planet by faithful observance of the law; filling the planet with their own offspring who will then worship them as their God. Inherently polytheistic.
God the Father had sex with Mary, impregnating her with Jesus.
Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit was a good and necessary thing, a part of God's plan.
The sacrifice of Jesus is not primarily about restoring our broken relationship with God the Father. Nor is it sufficient, because it must be paired with our obedience to law. Good works are not the result of a new life, but part of earning our new life.
Our purpose for existance is not relationship with God, but to attain to higher levels of divine existance to the point where we can become a God ourself and eternally procreate more children.

This is also a good illustrative answer to the original question of why it is important to believe in the truth of the scripture that has been given to us. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Truth. He will never reveal something that contradicts what he has already revealed as truth.
Mormon "scripture" paints a picture of a different God, a different Jesus, and a different salvation than new testament Christianity. If the Bible is the Holy Spirit revealed truth of God then the Mormon version of God cannot be true - It is a man created image of who God is suppose to be. It's an idol.

If we cannot measure supposedly new revelation against the existing revelation God has given us then we can be easily led astray into idolatry and destruction.
In Acts 17, the Bereans are commended as a more noble Jewish community than others who had heard the gospel preached because they took the time to search the scriptures, with an open heart to God's truth, to see if what Paul was preaching was true.
True revelation from God is marked by it's consistency with everything that has been revealed before. That is why you can see the truth of the new testament is consistent with the what was revealed in the old testament.
I don't know how I managed to miss this post when it first appeared, but you have so many misconceptions about Mormonism it's not even funny. I'm not even going to bother correcting you in this thread since to do so would end up taking it off-topic and turning it into a thread on Mormonism -- which I'm sure is not what the OP Had in mind. In the future, however, it would probably be a good idea for you to stick to tell us what you believe and not what somebody else believes.
 

MARCELLO

Transitioning from male to female
I have no problem to accept them. Love of God cannot be minimized into a book. It is too gorgeous.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I know christians exist who belive every thing written in the Bible is literally true.
But I do not know if I have ever met one face to face.
So I rather suspect that in the UK at least they are few and far between.
Most of the Bible has things to teach us, but little if any of it relies on literal accuracy.
I agree, Terry. I've also never met a Christian who claimed the Bible was error free as most don't take it literally.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Just curious on this point. If men were responsible for taking 'God's word' and putting it to paper, could it be that somewhere along the way, there were errors? That parts of the Bible might not be free from corruption? It requires faith to believe in the overall message of the Bible, and it requires the belief in God's grace to have a relationship with Christ...and to me, experiencing the Holy Spirit is all we truly 'need,' so why is it necessary to believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God?

I ask this because as I'm exploring churches, their 'mission statement' is wrapped up in believing that the Bible has no errors.

What do you think? :sunflower:

Because if it's an error in God's eyes, He will correct it.
 
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