Why is Obama labeled "black?"

[lilithu]

You want white to mean something bad and you want white people to feel guilty and rush to embrace your solution which is to voluntarily stop using the term white, all because you personally have a problem with it.

You already feel guilty. I'm suggesting a way out of it, but you can't see it.

Yes, African-American's had more to fear from institutionalized racialism. I wish there weren't true but I'm not guilty of those crimes, nor were anyone in my immediate family. So what is it you want me to say about the activities of the KKK? My grandfather ran them off our property under threats of death by shotgun when they tried to burn a cross in our yard. I don't really see what any of that has to do with the discussion but I have plenty of first hand knowledge of the Klan and it's workings. Hell I went to high school with the son of a former Grand High Wizard. Does that mean something about me? I'm I guilty merely by coming into contact with it?

Jeez louise.

We were talking about white privilege, the benefits that whites have over blacks just by virtue of being white. You claimed that poor whites do not have any privileges over blacks. I pointed out lynchings as a rather dramatic example of how even poor whites are privileged over blacks (in that regard). By virtue of the color of their skin, they generally do not have to worry about being lynched for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. (Altho they certainly have to worry about it more than a middle-class person would.)

NO WHERE did I say that you should feel guilty about the fact that there are lynchings. That ridiculous thought never entered my head. That is your own guilt speaking. The only thing I was trying to get you to see was that there are certain things that whites can take for granted by virtue of being white, like not having to worry about a mob stringing you up just for the fun of it. (Another example would be hailing a taxi cab. When you've had to hail a taxi, has it ever crossed your mind that the cabbies may not stop for you because of the color of your skin? )

And it's obvious from what you wrote above that you have no idea how prevalent lynchings were. At one time, recent enough so that some of the participants are still living, entire towns would participate, including women and children. It would be a carnival, festive atmosphere in broad daylight. It wasn't just some crazies in white sheets at night. And no, I'm not saying this to suggest that your family was involved. (Even if they were, it would not be your guilt.) I am talking about how common it was and therefore how afraid people were.
Journal E: Without Sanctuary: Lynching Photography in America
I doubt you'll bother to look at the photos, but if you do, note the crowds.

And black men still run the risk of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, like the murder of Oscar Grant
OpEdNews » The Cold-Blooded Murder of Oscar Grant: What Really Happened
Not more than a few days after Oscar's murder, an elderly black man was shot in front of his house by police officers looking for his son. (Unfortunately, I don't remember his name to find the story.)

You keep thinking that I'm trying to make you feel guilty for things that were done in the past. What purpose would that serve??! I am trying to get you to see that there are still shocking racial injustices going on right now. And that we have to address it, to end systemic racism. And if you don't act to stop what's going on right now, THAT's what you should feel guilty about.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

I have a thing against white privilege, yes. And I am encouraging those Euro-Americans who believe in equity and justice to drop an identity based on white privilege and instead adopt an identity based on ethnicity/ies, just like the rest of us.

I'll let Trey carry the rest of the argument, but I will decline your invitation to stop calling myself "white", in favor of saying that I am "English American" or "Anglo American".

I am one thing - and one thing only - I am an American. I happen to have white skin, but that is a coincidence. One guy I coach with has black skin, but (like me) he classifies himself as only one thing - American.

Unless someone is blind, they can see that I am white and he is black. He would no more deny the color of his skin than I would mine. If someone has a problem with that, then THEY have a problem - not us.

 

[lilithu]

Because society dictates certain things. Many people who are different, for whatever reason, are ashamed because society thinks it is wrong. People who are proud of it have embraced the difference, despite of what society says.

Thank gawd.

I guess racism could have been happening all around me but I was certainly not aware of it.

Ya think?

Racism continues to amaze me whenever I see it.

Yeah, I too am amazed that we have such gross sentencing disparities between powder and crack cocaine, when the only difference is who uses them.

I'm amazed that police officers continue to kill unarmed black men and Americans are not out in the streets in protest.

I'm amazed that in some states, they predict how many prisons they're gonna need in a few years by the population of black kids in school.

I'm amazed that Native American nations are not allowed to protect their own women by prosecuting rapists.

I'm amazed that we're spending billions of dollars in order to build a wall between us and Mexico, even tho there is no evidence or terrorists ever entering the U.S. via our southern border.

I'm amazed that our govt condoned the torture of Arab prisoners, many of whom were later released because there was no evidence that they were ever involved in terrorist activities.

I am truly amazed whenever I point these things out to people and the response is to try to explain them away or to just not care.

 

[Kathryn]

So, Lili, what are you doing about these issues?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

You already feel guilty. I'm suggesting a way out of it, but you can't see it.

You see. Still telling me how I'm feeling. You don't know how I'm feeling so stop.

You claimed that poor whites do not have any privileges over blacks.

No, I claimed the privilege was not related to just skin color but was more related to class. Poor whites and poor blacks did not feel any privilege at all. You want us to think that poor white people somehow had an edge over the black community because they were white and it just isn't so.

I pointed out lynchings as a rather dramatic example of how even poor whites are privileged over blacks (in that regard). By virtue of the color of their skin, they generally do not have to worry about being lynched for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. (Altho they certainly have to worry about it more than a middle-class person would.)

What, and a white man can't be in the wrong place at the wrong time? You think they wouldn't be in danger walking down the wrong alley in Watts or Harlem or Chinatown?

NO WHERE did I say that you should feel guilty about the fact that there are lynchings. That ridiculous thought never entered my head. That is your own guilt speaking.

And once again, any defense of my race is instant guilt.

The only thing I was trying to get you to see was that there are certain things that whites can take for granted by virtue of being white, like not having to worry about a mob stringing you up just for the fun of it. (Another example would be hailing a taxi cab. When you've had to hail a taxi, has it ever crossed your mind that the cabbies may not stop for you because of the color of your skin? )

No, but then again I don't live in a city center and don't use cabs. I'm just a country boy at heart and don't go for all that citified stuff.

And it's obvious from what you wrote above that you have no idea how prevalent lynchings were. At one time, recent enough so that some of the participants are still living, entire towns would participate, including women and children. It would be a carnival, festive atmosphere in broad daylight. It wasn't just some crazies in white sheets at night. And no, I'm not saying this to suggest that your family was involved. (Even if they were, it would not be your guilt.) I am talking about how common it was and therefore how afraid people were.

I'm sure this was true in some areas, just as I'm sure it wasn't in other areas. What does it have to do with my right to say I'm a white man and I'm proud of my heritage?

And black men still run the risk of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, like the murder of Oscar Grant
OpEdNews » The Cold-Blooded Murder of Oscar Grant: What Really Happened
Not more than a few days after Oscar's murder, an elderly black man was shot in front of his house by police officers looking for his son. (Unfortunately, I don't remember his name to find the story.)

Now this is just way out of line. Today violence is everywhere and while some is racial motivated most is violence for the sake of violence. You think a white man can go anywhere he wants without fear of violence? You think I wouldn't get shot driving through Little Havanah, Harlem or Watts?

You keep thinking that I'm trying to make you feel guilty for things that were done in the past. What purpose would that serve??! I am trying to get you to see that there are still shocking racial injustices going on right now. And that we have to address it, to end systemic racism. And if you don't act to stop what's going on right now, THAT's what you should feel guilty about.

Yes, there are shocking racial injustices going on. What does that have to do with me calling myself white. Forcing me and other white people to become American-Anglo Saxons and American-Italians and American-Russians is not the answer. Trying to elimnate white pride and cultures is not the answer. You don't fight racism with more racism.

 

[Draka]

Gotta love labeling.

People are people regardless of color. And this girl should prove that.

Moderator cut: image removed

She's jokingly called herself "Blewish". Why? Her father is Jewish and her mother is black. Color does not define who we are and where we come from unless we let it. It's a shame that some must force people into little boxes like with Kathryn's kids.

Yes, it's a shame that we have not yet developed the concept of biracial or multiracial.

That, however, is not the same as saying that color does not matter. I just love how some white people so authoritatively insist that color doesn't matter unless you let it. :sarcastic You point to one fair-skinned, gorgeous, biracial woman who is succeeding as a model or whatever and you think that's proof that color doesn't matter?? Tell that to the black man trying to catch a taxi at night. Or the Latino driver pulled over and asked to see his papers. Or the Arab family forced off the plane because someone thought they might be terrorists.

But I'm sure it's all their fault because they just didn't have the right attitude.

Unbelievable.

Did I whiz in your Cheerios or something? Why are you being a sarcasm dripping jerk here?

The point of posting the picture was to show that you can't simply tell by looking at someone, automatically, what their ethnicity is. It shouldn't matter either. I remarked about the whole thing Kathryn described about having to label her kids as one particular race when they are mixed. WHAT IN THE WORLD does what I said have to do with what you ranted about? I never said anything about color mattering. I said it shouldn't define us as WHO we are. I never said anything about discrimination or blame or anything. YOU are just ranting and raving and putting words in people's mouth that they never said. YOU are just coming off as WANTING to fight and argue for just the sake of arguing.

My goodness woman. I come in just to make a point that you can't judge a book by its cover, and you shouldn't, and make a generally positive statement and you want to jump all over me? Do yourself and everyone else here a favor, look to both sides of you, locate chip on shoulder, knock it off. It would do wonders for your disposition.

 

[Panda]

I am "White Scottish" and that is what I tick on all the forms. I am proud to be White Scottish, it is my heritage and part of my identity.

 

[lilithu]

You see. Still telling me how I'm feeling. You don't know how I'm feeling so stop.

You TOLD ME that you feel guilty in another thread!!

And yes, I am going to stop, because there is nothing to be gained by continuing this conversation with you. The only reason why we're still at it is because you responded to one of my posts that was directed to someone else. From now on, even if you continue to respond to me on this, I will not reciprocate.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

You TOLD ME that you feel guilty in another thread!!

Find it. I have never said I feel guilty about anything racial, ever.

 

[Kathryn]

Thanks, Draka, for clarifying a lot. I think it is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG for people in the 21st century to have to fill out a form in a public school funded by our tax dollars, that makes them mark of ONE PARTICULAR RACE - in the case of children, it's almost abusive! Talk about undermining my efforts as a parent to raise them to think beyond race! Here I am, minimizing the emphasis on race and maximizing the emphasis on character, and then the stupid school comes along and says basically, "You can only be one race - pick one." Sheeze! It just seems so BASS ACKWARDS! And then I look up and there on TV is our "first black President," and I'm thinking, "Hey, wait a minute - he's multiracial! And yet here we go again - our society STILL trying to force another multiracial person into ONE LITTLE BOX!"

It reminds me of slave days when a person was quadroon, octaroon, whatever ratio of "black." It didn't matter- ONE DROP OF BLACK BLOOD AND THEY'RE AUTOMATICALLY BLACK - and therefore limited by other people's perception of their worth as a person.

 

[Draka]

Thanks, Draka, for clarifying a lot. I think it is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG for people in the 21st century to have to fill out a form in a public school funded by our tax dollars, that makes them mark of ONE PARTICULAR RACE - in the case of children, it's almost abusive! Talk about undermining my efforts as a parent to raise them to think beyond race! Here I am, minimizing the emphasis on race and maximizing the emphasis on character, and then the stupid school comes along and says basically, "You can only be one race - pick one." Sheeze! It just seems so BASS ACKWARDS! And then I look up and there on TV is our "first black President," and I'm thinking, "Hey, wait a minute - he's multiracial! And yet here we go again - our society STILL trying to force another multiracial person into ONE LITTLE BOX!"

It reminds me of slave days when a person was quadroon, octaroon, whatever ratio of "black." It didn't matter- ONE DROP OF BLACK BLOOD AND THEY'RE AUTOMATICALLY BLACK - and therefore limited by other people's perception of their worth as a person.

So true. My point in the picture is that a person can have a certain ethnicity to them and you not even be able to tell by looking anymore. That's supposed to be a good thing. If we are getting to a point that we are so mixed that color is no longer being a sturdy standard by which to categorize a person...why categorize at all? Why force people to define themselves by race when they should define themselves by their characteristics and personality and morals and so on? It does do us a disservice to force labels. I commend you with how you have raised your children in regards to race. Excellent parenting there Kathryn. :yes:

 

[Kathryn]

Thank you, draka!!!!!!

 

[lilithu]

So, Lili, what are you doing about these issues?

One thing that I try to do is to get people to acknowledge them, because we can't address them if we don't acknowledge them.

Aside from that, I work with Unitarian Universalists to urge their members of Congress to address these issues and more. We're trying to eliminate the crack/coke sentencing disparity. We're trying to stop the border wall (altho at this point it's mostly built, so we're more trying to tear down the border wall). We worked on closing Guantanamo. I don't personally work on the fact that Native American nations do not have jurisdiction over felonies committed on their land. But I did convince my colleagues to work on re-authorizing the Indian Health Care Improvement Act, because it hasn't been re-authorized in 15 years. We're trying to get funding for green jobs training directed into low-income neighborhoods. We worked to stop mountaintop removal coal mining where corporations literally sheared the tops off of Appalachian mountains and then dumped the debris into nearby streams, poisoning the water for Appalachians, who are some of the poorest communities in the country.

And then there's on-going education. For example, I had no idea until recently that there had once been a black "Wall Street," an African American financial capital in Tulsa, OK. And that it had been burned to the ground by rioters and that the city government used planes to firebomb a black neighborhood.

I had no idea until a couple of years ago that until drug laws were changed in the 1970's, most people in prison were white, not black (not because whites are more violent but because they are the majority.) The Rockefeller laws, which imposed stiff sentences for minor drug crimes and mandatory sentencing drug laws, filled our prisons with young black and Hispanic men who were guilty of nothing more than minor crimes. And our prisons used to contain mostly rapists and murderers, now it's mostly drug offenders. And that prisons have become a multi-million dollar industry.

There are numerous ways in which our society has used the legal system in order to oppress and kill African Americans and other minority groups, all under the guise of upholding law and order.

 

[Kathryn]

One thing that I try to do is to get people to acknowledge them, because we can't address them if we don't acknowledge them.

Aside from that, I work with Unitarian Universalists to urge their members of Congress to address these issues and more.

How do you "work with the Unitarian Universalists?" I mean, specifically? Do you have a full time job or are you a full time student? Do you have children?

How much time a week do you volunteer your time to address these issues?

Seriously, I am just curious, because your list of causes was really long and I am wondering where you find the time to specifically address each and every one of those causes.

I know I sure couldn't work with that many different causes. But I have a pretty busy schedule. I'm sure I could do more than I do, however.

 

[gnomon]

Culture is inherited.

Language, religion, social manners, family relations are all taught. That is culture. Music, food, hand gestures, etc. are all taught. Inheritance is biological. Culture is taught.

Simply defining culture as inherited by the parents because they teach them tells us nothing. But to avoid talking past each other I do not view inheritance beyond that of biological to be of much meaning. In other words, we still probably see it the same way and I'm just viewing the terminology different from you.

There's a difference between having pride in one's ethnicity and being a bigot.

Of course there is. But who's talking about bigotry. I'm talking about false pride. There's not much rationale in taking personal pride of one's ancestor. I can understand cultural pride to an extent.

I agree with your general assessment regarding white privilege to an extent. I have not studied the cultural history enough to know if whether or not the Irish and other non-anglo groups in 18th and 19th century America were considered non-white. At any rate, the discrimination did exist. And you know I agree with you regarding the institutional racism of the justice system and being white is definitely a privilege in that system. It's too obvious to ignore.

I've found the concept of ethnic pride to be a very dangerous concept. Not universally dangerous. Many people hold it and yet exhibit no animosity or bias towards others. However, one look around the conflicts around the world and we can see that beyond the struggle for resources ethnic conflict and ethnonationalism is the primary driving force behind conflict. I've come the conclusion that moving beyond ethnic identity will be the only way human beings can ever overcome these conflicts. I also understand my point of view is most likely an idealized pipe dream.

 

[ChristineES]

When they ask race, I either put "mixed race" or "decline to answer". I don't understand why that question would even be needed in this day and age.

 

[lilithu]

How do you "work with the Unitarian Universalists?" I mean, specifically? Do you have a full time job or are you a full time student? Do you have children?

It is my job. (That's why I mentioned colleagues.) I chose that job, as opposed to other, higher-paying jobs, because this is what I wanted to do.

I know I sure couldn't work with that many different causes. But I have a pretty busy schedule. I'm sure I could do more than I do, however.

I'm not expecting everyone to drop everything to work on social justice issues. (Altho I will say that a number of UUs work full time jobs and volunteer their time to causes, and show such devotion that they put me to shame.) What I do expect from people is that when they are informed that such issues exist, that they don't try to deny them or belittle them, or make excuses for them. And that when they have the time, they do what they can.

I've been called strident on these forums, and it's probably true.... now. When I first started talking about these issues, I was more "patient." I believed that if I just laid out the evidence that people would be rightfully appalled. And to my amazement, people would deny them or belittle them, or make excuses for them... So then I started insisting harder. And they would resist a little harder. Quite quickly I learned how blacks got the stereotype for being "angry." It's fine, if you don't say anything and just accept how things are. But if you say something, then you get push back. And if you persist, you get labeled as "angry" or "ranting." Everyone wants to pretend that things are fine, when it's not. And then they wonder why there are race riots every few years.

 

[Kathryn]

What race would you say this child is? (This is one of my six grandchildren - the oldest, Margaret AnneMarie.)

 

[ChristineES]

I believed that if I just laid out the evidence that people would be rightfully appalled. And to my amazement, people would deny them or belittle them, or make excuses for them... So then I started insisting harder.

But no one has said that blacks were not mistreated, quite the contrary. We know they have been mistreated, more than any other group in the country- and Native Americans, too. It is getting better. It may not be perfect yet, but we are working on it. I don't know what you think we could do. I am pretty color blind myself. When I was in the Navy, I knew some really bad racists who say the most appalling things! We all know about lynchings and other horrible things. And I also know that there are KKK members and skin heads and other white supremacists around.
And we are appalled!

 

[Autodidact]

No, I claimed the privilege was not related to just skin color but was more related to class. Poor whites and poor blacks did not feel any privilege at all. You want us to think that poor white people somehow had an edge over the black community because they were white and it just isn't so.

I have to disagree with this factually. The right to vote, to serve on juries, to own property in any part of town they could afford, to attend the better schools and public colleges, to use public transportation, to travel freely without fear of police harassment, were all rights that poor whites had but that were denied to poor blacks.

I think if you asked some actual Black people who were living in the same time and place you were, you would get a very different accounting from yours.