Why is the argument that there were no Palestinians raised?

[Kirran]

I was wondering when someone would bring up the so-called cause of the American revolution along with it's bells and whistles. It is amusing to see people upholding their people's right to a nation and self-determination while denying it to another group of people.

This is in support of my point?

Just to clarify.

 

[Shad]

This is in support of my point?

Just to clarify.

Yes it was in support.

 

[rosends]

Well yes, it is implicit in the declaration. Most states are modern inventions, it has nothing to do with right to occupation. I keep wonderihg why you think it does?

The idea of nationalism for a non-named group when the declaration is an explicit statement of nationalism for a particular named group is implicit in your mind? What else do you find in there? A declaration so short sure says a lot of things if you start to guess at what is hidden between the lines. I wonder why you keep thinking that this is about occupation? Maybe because you keep seeing something implicit that simply isn't there.

 

[Lyndon]

You just don't give a damn about anyone but Jews living in Israel, do you???

 

[rosends]

You just don't give a damn about anyone but Jews living in Israel, do you???

I don't know whom you intend this for, but it is as useful as someone saying to you "You just can't accept that any Jews live in Israel, can you???" You mischaracterize someone else's position and take it to an extreme while reducing it to a simplistic statement so that the resultant summary paints another person in a negative light and you can then assert a superior position through pointing out the problems with the invented and imputed claim. It really is bad rhetorical form.

 

[Lyndon]

I don't give a damn, you're the one denying the Palestinian people a free place to live.

 

[Kirran]

It really does seem that there's just no consideration of the Palestinian people (or whatever you prefer to call them) and their welfare here. Like, regardless of everything else, these are people who suffering, there's no arguing that away.

 

[rosends]

It really does seem that there's just no consideration of the Palestinian people (or whatever you prefer to call them) and their welfare here. Like, regardless of everything else, these are people who suffering, there's no arguing that away.

The error in this statement is that it conflates people who live in Israel with this phantom notion of a particular nationality. Israel has laws about citizenship, voting rights, drivers' licensure, medical insurance, gun possession etc and they apply to Jews and non-Jews. Ask an Arab if he feels his welfare and standard of living is better in Israel or under another governmental structure or place and in many cases you will see that Arabs are Ok with a lot of what Israel is and does. And Israelis of all bents are likely to criticize the government for MANY of its policies, regardless of who the "victims" are. Attacking the government in Israel is sort of a national pasttime. The people who are suffering are not limited to one particular group, ethnicity or origin. Russian Jews suffer. Armenians suffer. Arabs suffer. The unemployed suffer. And on and on. But the claim that the nature of the suffering in one case is through depriving a discrete group of a particular right to national self identity which has never existed is just not there. There is an interesting article about this from the Gatestone Institute The Arabs of Israel

 

[rosends]

I don't give a damn, you're the one denying the Palestinian people a free place to live.

No, you're the one denying the Jewish people a free place to live.

See how easy it is to make some big, general statement that ultimately has no value?

 

[Kirran]

The error in this statement is that it conflates people who live in Israel with this phantom notion of a particular nationality. Israel has laws about citizenship, voting rights, drivers' licensure, medical insurance, gun possession etc and they apply to Jews and non-Jews. Ask an Arab if he feels his welfare and standard of living is better in Israel or under another governmental structure or place and in many cases you will see that Arabs are Ok with a lot of what Israel is and does. And Israelis of all bents are likely to criticize the government for MANY of its policies, regardless of who the "victims" are. Attacking the government in Israel is sort of a national pasttime. The people who are suffering are not limited to one particular group, ethnicity or origin. Russian Jews suffer. Armenians suffer. Arabs suffer. The unemployed suffer. And on and on. But the claim that the nature of the suffering in one case is through depriving a discrete group of a particular right to national self identity which has never existed is just not there. There is an interesting article about this from the Gatestone Institute The Arabs of Israel

Arab Israelis =/= Palestinians (or Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza, if you prefer)

Also, the national self identity obviously does exist, hence Palestinian nationalism.

 

[Kirran]

No, you're the one denying the Jewish people a free place to live.

See how easy it is to make some big, general statement that ultimately has no value?

Jews can live in Israel, sure. I have zero issue with this.

 

[Lyndon]

The Zionists created their own problems, instead of loving their neighbor as their most famous rabbi would say, they teach hatred and separation, as do their Muslim neighbors now. Which came first Muslim hatred of Jews or Jewish intolerance and aggression towards Palestinians? I would venture to point out that before masses of Jews invaded Palestine after WWII, Jews lived peacefully all throughout the Muslim world, now they can't live there anymore, and Zionism has nothing to do with causing this situation??? I think not.

 

[Kirran]

The Zionists created their own problems, instead of loving their neighbor as their most famous rabbi would say, they teach hatred and separation, as do their Muslim neighbors now. Which came first Muslim hatred of Jews or Jewish intolerance and aggression towards Palestinians? I would venture to point out that before masses of Jews invaded Palestine after WWII, Jews lived peacefully all throughout the Muslim world, now they can't live there anymore, and Zionism has nothing to do with causing this situation??? I think not.

Anti-Semitism in the Arab world, as it exists today, is largely a European import, boosted dramatically by the existence of Israel. However you slice, the Arab people living in the British Mandate of Palestine are generally worse off for having had huge influxes of Jewish people there, who set up their own government, and an explicitly Jewish state.

I'm not saying it shouldn't have been done, but it was always going to negatively impact people living there previously

 

[Lyndon]

Well we can't turn back the clock and make Israel Palestinian, but Israelis can and will have to learn to get along better and less violently with their neighbors, or things are just going to go from bad to worse, its never to late to change an oppressive policy, even the upcoming election might be a huge upset to the Zionists. No one in the Arab world is going to forget Israels violent history, but given time and a true desire to cohabit the region, there is hope, if Israel does not change their attitude I don't think hope is what lies in the future.

 

[rosends]

Arab Israelis =/= Palestinians (or Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza, if you prefer)

Also, the national self identity obviously does exist, hence Palestinian nationalism.

The inequation you establish then becomes part of the problem. Arab Israelis are the ones often claiming to be Palestinians. And if not them, then who? Jordanians (the land intended to be the Arab homeland from the time of partition?).

 

[Kirran]

The inequation you establish then becomes part of the problem. Arab Israelis are the ones often claiming to be Palestinians. And if not them, then who? Jordanians (the land intended to be the Arab homeland from the time of partition?).

The people who identify as Palestinians. Like, there is a national identity there. People identify as Palestinian, and think of their nationality as Palestinian.

 

[rosends]

I would venture to point out that before masses of Jews invaded Palestine after WWII, Jews lived peacefully all throughout the Muslim world, now they can't live there anymore

Your venture would be incorrect. Not only were there Jews living in the land continuously for the last 3000 years, migrations seriously predate WW2. You should check your history before you say things like that. And the claim that Jews lived "peacefully all throughout the Muslim world" is a bit simplistic. Dhimmi status was peaceful but not exactly desirable. And there are plenty of historical events which show violence against Jews in Muslim lands. If you want to compare it to treatment in Christian lands and say it as relatively peaceful then say that. But as an absolute statement it is inaccurate.

 

[Kirran]

Your venture would be incorrect. Not only were there Jews living in the land continuously for the last 3000 years, migrations seriously predate WW2. You should check your history before you say things like that. And the claim that Jews lived "peacefully all throughout the Muslim world" is a bit simplistic. Dhimmi status was peaceful but not exactly desirable. And there are plenty of historical events which show violence against Jews in Muslim lands. If you want to compare it to treatment in Christian lands and say it as relatively peaceful then say that. But as an absolute statement it is inaccurate.

All true. But the status of Jews has deteriorated in the Arab world of late.

 

[rosends]

The people who identify as Palestinians. Like, there is a national identity there. People identify as Palestinian, and think of their nationality as Palestinian.

And, as Shakespeare says, "thinking makes it so"? If I think of myself as something today, does that give me the right to demand being treated as that thing by everyone else? Or claim then any historical value to my insistence?

I declare myself to be a localtarian and wants rights as such, and the creation of a separate country to celebrate my localtarian heritage which I am setting up right now.

 

[rosends]

All true. But the status of Jews has deteriorated in the Arab world of late.

Not that much, often because the Jews were expelled from the many Arab countries a long time ago.