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Why is the argument that there were no Palestinians raised?

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Your venture would be incorrect. Not only were there Jews living in the land continuously for the last 3000 years, migrations seriously predate WW2. You should check your history before you say things like that. And the claim that Jews lived "peacefully all throughout the Muslim world" is a bit simplistic. Dhimmi status was peaceful but not exactly desirable. And there are plenty of historical events which show violence against Jews in Muslim lands. If you want to compare it to treatment in Christian lands and say it as relatively peaceful then say that. But as an absolute statement it is inaccurate.

Reading comprehension?? Didn't I just say Jews lived peacefully throughout Muslim lands, that would include Palestine, and now your denying that masses of Jews "invaded" Palestine after WWII, that's where most of the Jewish population came from, the pre Exodus Jewish numbers were much lower, and immediately upon this mass migration, armed struggle and ethnic cleansing started almost right away, whereas the pre WWII Jews in Palestine lived in a more peaceful; coexistence with other native people who you so stubbornly refuse to admit were Palestinian.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
And, as Shakespeare says, "thinking makes it so"? If I think of myself as something today, does that give me the right to demand being treated as that thing by everyone else? Or claim then any historical value to my insistence?

I declare myself to be a localtarian and wants rights as such, and the creation of a separate country to celebrate my localtarian heritage which I am setting up right now.

If you and millions of other people did so, yeah.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Well we can't turn back the clock and make Israel Palestinian, but Israelis can and will have to learn to get along better and less violently with their neighbors, or things are just going to go from bad to worse, its never to late to change an oppressive policy, even the upcoming election might be a huge upset to the Zionists. No one in the Arab world is going to forget Israels violent history, but given time and a true desire to cohabit the region, there is hope, if Israel does not change their attitude I don't think hope is what lies in the future.
Neighbors like Egypt and Jordan? Or like Saudi Arabia in re: the military discussions currently being made secretly regarding strikes against Iran?

or maybe you mean neighbors who want to turn back the clock and deny that Israel has a right to exist by claiming the entire country is supposed to be another country and not a Jewish state? If Arabs want to earn recognition for a new state, maybe some of them should start recognizing the Jewish state that already exists.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Arabs aren't a monolithic entity. It's not 'the Arabs want a state' it's the people of Palestine mostly want a state, and have substantial support from certain neighbouring countries.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Reading comprehension?? Didn't I just say Jews lived peacefully throughout Muslim lands, that would include Palestine, and now your denying that masses of Jews "invaded" Palestine after WWII, that's where most of the Jewish population came from, the pre Exodus Jewish numbers were much lower, and immediately upon this mass migration, armed struggle and ethnic cleansing started almost right away, whereas the pre WWII Jews in Palestine lived in a more peaceful; coexistence with other native people who you so stubbornly refuse to admit were Palestinian.
You are having trouble so I'll try to make this clear:
1. You DID just say Jews lived peacefully throughout Muslim lands.
So I said "you are wrong by many objective standards" See how that works?
2. You say I deny that masses "invaded" after WW2. That presents problems:
a) I never addressed migration after WW2
b) I never considered the word "invaded
c) you are ignoring the facts about earlier migrations and native Jewish populations
3. You present the events of post WW2 as immediate ethnic cleansing by "invading" Jews. That ignores reality and the war of 1948. Violence against Jews predated the declaration of the state and the attacks came from other countries.
4. You forget that pre WW2, the Jews were the Palestinians. Arabs did not go by that name. And violence against Jews in the geographical Palestine pre WW2 is well documented even though you think everyone lived in peace.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Arabs aren't a monolithic entity. It's not 'the Arabs want a state' it's the people of Palestine mostly want a state, and have substantial support from certain neighbouring countries.
But the "people of Palestine" are a false construct. Do you mean the people who lived there before 1948? Does that include the Jews who were called Palestinian? Does that include the Arabs who became citizens of Israel? You are creating a circular argument predicated on the existence of Palestine as a thing.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Neighbors like Egypt and Jordan? Or like Saudi Arabia in re: the military discussions currently being made secretly regarding strikes against Iran?

or maybe you mean neighbors who want to turn back the clock and deny that Israel has a right to exist by claiming the entire country is supposed to be another country and not a Jewish state? If Arabs want to earn recognition for a new state, maybe some of them should start recognizing the Jewish state that already exists.


Are you daft?? It takes two to tango, if you want Israels neighbors to recognize Jews right to exist as a country, the smart and logical thing to do would would be to recognize the Palestinians right to have a country, then maybe they will act in kind, diplomacy is not being practiced in this Conflict, just a lot of saber rattling and provocation after provocation, you can hardly blame the Palestinians for not wanting to recognize Israel, because the Zionist policies of Israel today don't really deserve recognition.IMHO.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
But the "people of Palestine" are a false construct. Do you mean the people who lived there before 1948? Does that include the Jews who were called Palestinian? Does that include the Arabs who became citizens of Israel? You are creating a circular argument predicated on the existence of Palestine as a thing.

OK, do you dispute that there is a modern Palestinian identity?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
OK, do you dispute that there is a modern Palestinian identity?
I am honestly not sure. I have yet to see any real socio-historical definition or explanation of that identity. Who is or isn't included? On what basis? Does it meet a standard applied to other groups?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Are you daft?? It takes two to tango, if you want Israels neighbors to recognize Jews right to exist as a country, the smart and logical thing to do would would be to recognize the Palestinians right to have a country, then maybe they will act in kind, diplomacy is not being practiced in this Conflict, just a lot of saber rattling and provocation after provocation, you can hardly blame the Palestinians for not wanting to recognize Israel, because the Zionist policies of Israel today don't really deserve recognition.IMHO.
You accept that it takes 2 to tango but you characterize the events of 1948 as "immediately upon this mass migration, armed struggle and ethnic cleansing started almost right away". Why not look back and say "in 1948, it took 2 to tango and Arabs engaged in armed struggle and ethnic cleansing"

You can hardly blame Israelis for not anting to recognize a Palestinian state because the stated Palestinian goal is the eradication of Israel (btw, both Fatah reps and Hamas reps have said that in recent years).
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I am honestly not sure. I have yet to see any real socio-historical definition or explanation of that identity. Who is or isn't included? On what basis? Does it meet a standard applied to other groups?

Well, there are very large numbers of people who identify as Palestinians, so they're included, and the standard of whether there's a sizable self-identity with some measure of associated culture is met. Palestinian Arabic has distinct features.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
You accept that it takes 2 to tango but you characterize the events of 1948 as "immediately upon this mass migration, armed struggle and ethnic cleansing started almost right away". Why not look back and say "in 1948, it took 2 to tango and Arabs engaged in armed struggle and ethnic cleansing"

You can hardly blame Israelis for not anting to recognize a Palestinian state because the stated Palestinian goal is the eradication of Israel (btw, both Fatah reps and Hamas reps have said that in recent years).

You did basically invade and start to take over Arab land, and you're putting all the blame on the Arabs for wanting to fight that, that's really punk. mate.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
I would venture to point out that before masses of Jews invaded Palestine after WWII, Jews lived peacefully all throughout the Muslim world,

Do tell.
Category:Anti-Jewish pogroms by Muslims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


now they can't live there anymore, and Zionism has nothing to do with causing this situation??? I think not.

So because some Jews found a State in the Middle East its okay for Muslims to persecute Jews who have nothing to do with it and live in completely different areas of the Muslim world.

That's not crazy at all.


You did basically invade and start to take over Arab land, and you're putting all the blame on the Arabs for wanting to fight that, that's really punk. mate.

Yeah the Jews basically arrived in landing boats on the Palestinian shore. It's not like the Turks would've simply killed them.
It is real in my mind...


Reading comprehension?? Didn't I just say Jews lived peacefully throughout Muslim lands, that would include Palestine

1517 Hebron attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1517 Safed attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1834 Hebron massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1834 looting of Safed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1929 Hebron massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1929 Safed riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How peaceful.


and now your denying that masses of Jews "invaded" Palestine after WWI

You know if you call that an invasion then what happens to the EU right now is also an invasion.


and immediately upon this mass migration, armed struggle and ethnic cleansing started almost right away, whereas the pre WWII Jews in Palestine lived in a more peaceful; coexistence with other native people

So tell me how many Jews lived from 1948 to 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip?
How come their numbers kinda dropped during the War of Independence?
Let me guess, they were all Zionists.


Are you daft?? It takes two to tango, if you want Israels neighbors to recognize Jews right to exist as a country, the smart and logical thing to do would would be to recognize the Palestinians right to have a country, then maybe they will act in kind

You mean countries like Syria with Assad? Have you missed what's going on there?

Or countries like Lebanon with Hezbollah? Did you know that Hezbollah was founded to liberate Lebanon and after that was "done" they enlarged their goals to "Liberation of Palestine"?

As far as Jordan and Egypt are concerned both countries signed a Peace Treaty with Israel. And now they even cooperate on all sorts of stuff.
Magic.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
You know if you call that an invasion then what happens to the EU right now is also an invasion.

Just to address this point, immigrants to Europe don't set up their own government. Pakistanis haven't come to the UK and set up an Islamic state.

Jews did, however, set up a Jewish state in Israel.

Just think it's important to recognise these are very different situations.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Just to address this point, immigrants to Europe don't set up their own government. Pakistanis haven't come to the UK and set up an Islamic state.

Jews did, however, set up a Jewish state in Israel.

Just think it's important to recognise these are very different situations.

Yes Jews moved to the area and immediately started their own country.
That's totally how it was.
Which is why Israel is over 100 years old.

Oh wait.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Yes Jews moved to the area and immediately started their own country.
That's totally how it was.
Which is why Israel is over 100 years old.

Oh wait.

I'm not maligning it. But Jews did set up their own country in Israel, the initial government of which was largely composed of European Jews.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
And a great many "Palestinians" came from other areas, especially Syria, and settled there as well during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The area has seen myriads of different groups moving through and settling or moving on to other areas as this always has been the nature of the region.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
So the Palestinians have no rights to defend themselves in your world???
Never said that. Never implied that. But don't mistake murder and terroristic aggression for defending one's self. Blowing up a crowded pizzaria is not Palestinians exercising their right to defend themselves. Neither is stabbing up families, including an infant, while they're asleep.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Neither is bombing civilians indiscriminately and killing 10 times as many people as were killed by the terrorists, terror comes in two shades in Israel, one side Jewish, one side Muslim.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Neither is bombing civilians indiscriminately and killing 10 times as many people as were killed by the terrorists, terror comes in two shades in Israel, one side Jewish, one side Muslim.

Israel does not bomb civilians indiscriminately. In fact, they take great measures to avoid civilian casualties. The Palestinians, however, take great measures to put their civilians in harm's way, in addition to having terrorists dress in plain clothes so their deaths can be reported as civilian casualties, and straight up lying about their numbers.

Loss of innocent Palestinian civilian life is not Israel's goal. Neither Hamas nor Fatah can be said to have the same regard for Israeli civilians.
 
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