Why is the concept of the trinity so poorly understood (or often straw manned)?

[Theodore A. Jones]

According to Wiki....

"The term heresy is from Greek αἵρεσις originally meant "choice" or "thing chosen",[6] but it came to mean the "party or school of a man's choice"[7] and also referred to that process whereby a young person would examine various philosophies to determine how to live. The word "heresy" is usually used within a Christian, Jewish, or Islamic context, and implies slightly different meanings in each. The founder or leader of a heretical movement is called a heresiarch, while individuals who espouse heresy or commit heresy are known as heretics."

So the original word was not really what Catholicism made it out to be....a crime that carried the death penalty.
No Christian was ever authorized to execute or torture someone for heresy (apostasy).....that was Christ's job. (2 Thess 1:6-9) The worst penalty that could be imposed was excommunication....nothing more.

You might want to look up Strongs Concordance concerning the translation of this word....

Hairesis - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Haireomai - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

These references will show that the word for "heresy" in 2 Pet 2:1 is translated "sects" and "factions" in all other instances.

So technically speaking, any "sect" or "faction" of Christendom can be called a heresy in that case. I guess the Catholic Church thought so.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Heresy is a common English definitive descriptive designating a false religious proposal.

 

[JayJayDee]

Heresy is a common English definitive descriptive designating a false religious proposal.

I thought we were talking about the word "heresy"? Sects and factions mean the same thing...apostasy is a falling away from the truth...a deliberate rebellion.

Jesus and his disciples would have been accused of the same thing....but the one thing the Jewish people were unaware of was that their apostasy took place long before they were born. This was the only Judaism they had ever known.
Israel had hundreds of years to go off on their tangents before Jesus came.

Christendom too has had many centuries of apostasy masquerading as Christianity. It is a sham...the "weeds" of Jesus' parable. But again, it is all people have ever known.
History repeats because humans never change and they don't learn the lessons from the past. The pictorial history is there, but no one seems to notice.

 

[muhammad_isa]

History repeats because humans never change and they don't learn the lessons from the past. The pictorial history is there, but no one seems to notice.

You're right .. we're too busy accumulating wealth and enjoying it, just like our forefathers

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

The argument of Christianity being pagan based on having the 3 deities that are the Trinity is just ridiculous. 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 isn't that hard to understand, especially when you understand the solar aspects of the symbolism. My question is are these people just anti-religious fundies practicing willful ignorance, is it a straw man, or is there something legitimately hard to understand?

Trinity in Christianity
Is to unite
I offer you the following
And I hope to be clear
Man is a single entity
Three components of the human
Is the body and the soul and spirit
Another exampleFire is burning material and heat and light
One of these examples can understand the Trinity in Christianity
Christ is the body
The source of the word and the word
Christ is the word
The source of the word and is Nchaitha

 

[JayJayDee]

You're right .. we're too busy accumulating wealth and enjoying it, just like our forefathers

The apostle John wrote this warning......"Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life —does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever." (1John 2:15-17)

If people ignore the warnings and continue to do what the apostle warned us not to do, who do we blame if we fail the final judgment?

 

[lovemuffin]

Baloney, you know very well that πριν is also old world, ere, and for, both obviously having "before" association.

You also know γενεσθαι is also - to fulfilled be, to come to be

I don't actually know that. It seems odd that you would accuse me of lying. In any case, I'm neither a lexicographer nor a scholar of ancient greek, so all I "know" is what various authorities say. On this specific verse, and on the definitions and usages of those words, all of the ones I'm aware of say the same things. That said, having dug just slightly deeper, I see that Strong's exhaustive concordance (here) lists "be fulfilled" for genesthai among a very long list of possible usages, and given the relation to "come to pass", I'll give you that one. I don't think it changes the conclusion, because the same can't be said for prin and because every translator arrives at the same conclusion. biblehub gives a very long list of translators all saying the same thing.

Re: definitions

πριν: Tufts U., Strong's, Teknia. None of these seem to list the usage that you are suggesting.

γενεσθαι: Tufts, Strong's ,Teknia

So my non-expert opinion is that in order to sustain an argument that the translation is wrong, you have to do a lot of work to demonstrate why all the existing sources are wrong.

 

[Ingledsva]

Baloney, you know very well that πριν is also old world, ere, and for, both obviously having "before" association.

You also know γενεσθαι is also - to fulfilled be, to come to be

I don't actually know that. It seems odd that you would accuse me of lying. In any case, I'm neither a lexicographer nor a scholar of ancient greek, so all I "know" is what various authorities say. On this specific verse, and on the definitions and usages of those words, all of the ones I'm aware of say the same things. That said, having dug just slightly deeper, I see that Strong's exhaustive concordance (here) lists "be fulfilled" for genesthai among a very long list of possible usages, and given the relation to "come to pass", I'll give you that one. I don't think it changes the conclusion, because the same can't be said for prin and because every translator arrives at the same conclusion. biblehub gives a very long list of translators all saying the same thing.

Re: definitions

πριν: Tufts U., Strong's, Teknia. None of these seem to list the usage that you are suggesting.

γενεσθαι: Tufts, Strong's ,Teknia

So my non-expert opinion is that in order to sustain an argument that the translation is wrong, you have to do a lot of work to demonstrate why all the existing sources are wrong.

You found I am correct on "fulfilled," and if you looked up the other, you will find "ere" listed, which means I could use for. However it says what I said it says - even if I use ere.

Did you read post # 158? He is claiming to be the promised Messiah.

*

 

[lovemuffin]

"ere" does not mean "for". "ere" means before.

Also I should clarify I still think it's quite clear in the context of this passage that the proper translation of genesthai is "came to be", and its still in the aorist, which is also problematic for your usage. But it really doesn't matter what I think. It does matter that literally every expert disagrees with you.

 

[Amadon]

The argument of Christianity being pagan based on having the 3 deities that are the Trinity is just ridiculous. 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 isn't that hard to understand, especially when you understand the solar aspects of the symbolism. My question is are these people just anti-religious fundies practicing willful ignorance, is it a straw man, or is there something legitimately hard to understand?

I would li

The argument of Christianity being pagan based on having the 3 deities that are the Trinity is just ridiculous. 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 isn't that hard to understand, especially when you understand the solar aspects of the symbolism. My question is are these people just anti-religious fundies practicing willful ignorance, is it a straw man, or is there something legitimately hard to understand?

I would like to try, with my limited finite abilities to explain the trinity God the father is the first source and center of the universe. He is the only self created being in the universe. When he came forth out of the cosmos Paradise and the central universe were created. God has eternally resided on Paradise. God created the eternal son and then, he and the son created the holy spirit. They are each creators who can create alone or together. As we study the universe, we find that the number 7 is very predominate, the reason for this is as follows. The father, the son and the spirit can each create alone. The father and the son can create together, that makes four. the father and the spirit can create together and that is five. The son and the spirit can create together and that is six. the three can create together and that makes seven different ways they can create and that is the limit. Each of these seven ways can create many different beings and things and they have done more than any of us can comprehend.
Paradise is the only stationary object in the universe and is a very large world at the center of the universe and everything circulates around it. I like to think of it as a wagon wheel laying flat. Circling around are twenty one planets. The first seven are the planets are worlds of the father. The second seven are worlds of the spirit and the third seven are worlds of the son. Although there are no spokes, all these worlds are as though they were on seven spokes. Just as a wheel has a rim on it, just out from the twenty one worlds are the one billion mansion worlds of Havona. No wheel has seven rims but Havona is in seven rings. The inner ring has thirty five million worlds, the outermost ring has two hundred forty five million worlds and the five intervening circuit's have proportionate numbers. All of the before mentioned creation revolves around Paradise in a clockwise direction.
We, as ascending pilgrims will traverse each of these mansion worlds on our way to Paradise. The trinity are spirit beings and I have my own way of seeing them. They are separate beings and yet, they are one I think of them as being like three lamp shades stacked up The father is on the bottom, the son is in the middle and the spirit is on the top.. Before we can ever have residents on paradise , we must be able to tell the three apart. As ascending pilgrims we start our Havona life on the outside circuit and work our way to the inside. When we get the sixth circuit we may have a pass to visit paradise and we are allowed to see the spirit who is easy to find.. After we reach the inside circuit we can got to Paradise and find the son. The Father is some what harder to see and some times takes several times to find him. Some few Pilgrims fail to find him and have to return to a outer circuit and come back through. Most never fail the second time through God has given a command that says, be ye perfect, even as I am. This is not a commandment for us to try to complete in this life, it a goal for us to complete in the next life.
Out from the central universe are seven super universes which revolve counter clock wise around Paradise. We reside in number seven which as of now is right around three o'clock and heading towards twelve o'clock. The Bible states that to God, a thousand years is but a day. It takes just seven minuets, three and one eight seconds less than one thousand of our years make the trip around paradise and that is one day to God.

 

[Brandon Brossett]

John 10:30 I and my father are one and Isaiah 9:6 says his name shall be called everlasting father I could go on.

God created man for fellowship. God said sin causes death and sin separates us from God and God from his creation b/c he cannot lie. Let me jump straight over Old Testament sacrifices. We could all agree that there has to be a sacrifice but it had to be without spot or blemish/without sin and all have sinned so no one could be the sacrifice but God himself 1tim3:16 "God was matifested in the Flesh". This why the Pharisees would say "who can forgive sins but God" exactly He was God