Why is the concept of the trinity so poorly understood (or often straw manned)?

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I think what they are saying is that - Logos = God's Law, which was with him from the beginning

Apart from this being nonsense in Greek, those who require translations are still left with "the logos became flesh..." in John. You believe that Jesus was God's law?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

This one should be translated differently -

You don't know Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin, or Greek. What on earth could possibly support your assertion that those who know the languages you haven't any real knowledge of (nor an understanding of the nature of language in general) are less able to translate texts you can't even read?

 

[Harikrish]

The reason the trinity is poorly understood is because there are other compelling trilemma that fits Jesus without violating mathematical principles such as 1+1+1 = 1.
What is mathematically provable is a trilemma.

Scripture can be used to prove Jesus was a liar, lunatic and Lord wannabe.

Deuteronomy 18: 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

1. To be put to death one had to be a false prophet. Jesus was put to death for claiming to be something he was not. That is falsehood or lying. Jesus was a liar.

2. Knowing it is already commanded by God to Moses not to suffer false prophets, they must be put to death. Jesus was threatened with stoning for blaspheming several times, he even had to slip away and hide from the mob. But he did not stop calling himself their messiah and Christ. He knew the scriptures as well as the Jews and yet he defied them to follow through which they finally did and asked that he be put to death. Only a lunatic would ignore repeated warnings and take the chance he took. He was crucified as a result of his lunacy. Jesus was a lunatic.

3. Jesus realizes on the cross his delusions is costing him his life and cries out to God. Jesus was a Lord wannabe.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

So Jesus was all three liar, lunatic and God wannabe. The trilemma behind the trinity doctrine that most Christians are unaware of. This was first suggested by C. S. Lewis a Christian apologist.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This:
[GALLERY=media, 4418]Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English by sojourner posted Jan 24, 2015 at 8:56 AM[/GALLERY]
Is not incoherent.

No it's not .. I can't see anything other than a error message

Seriously though, he is right .. it's not coherrant that the Father & Son are both God. We can convince ourselves that anything we like makes sense, but that does not make it so.
Just stating that the Father & Son are the same, because scripture says so (if that indeed, is what it means), does not make it rational. Claiming that our concept of Almighty God does not have to be rational ( due to omnipotent etc.) is ALSO untrue. If our concept doesn't have to be rational, then anybody can make up anything they like and claim (according to their interpretation) 'scripture says so' .

 

[muhammad_isa]

2. Knowing it is already commanded by God to Moses not to suffer false prophets, they must be put to death. Jesus was threatened with stoning for blaspheming several times, he even had to slip away and hide from the mob. But he did not stop calling himself their messiah and Christ.

No .. that's because he IS!

He knew the scriptures as well as the Jews and yet he defied them to follow through which they finally did and asked that he be put to death. Only a lunatic would ignore repeated warnings and take the chance he took. He was crucified as a result of his lunacy.

No .. no .. no!
He IS the Christ..

3. Jesus realizes on the cross his delusions is costing him his life and cries out to God.

Who wouldn't!
He is not deluded .. He is a brave soldier for Almighty God. Peace be with him.

 

[sojourner]

No it's not .. I can't see anything other than a error message

Of course not. you're Muslim; you don't want to see anything other than that.

it's not coherrant that the Father & Son are both God.

Of course it is. Since God isn't "a being," why should God be limited to the same criterion as those of us who are "a being?"

We can convince ourselves that anything we like makes sense, but that does not make it so.

That's my point with you. You don't like it, so you've convinced yourself that it can't be true. Your self-convincing doesn't make it false, though.

Just stating that the Father & Son are the same, because scripture says so (if that indeed, is what it means), does not make it rational.

No, that doesn't make it rational.

Claiming that our concept of Almighty God does not have to be rational ( due to omnipotent etc.) is ALSO untrue.

I disagree, but i don't find the Trinity irrational.

 

[Servant James]

Well, it's so poorly understood that you slightly misrepresented it yourself when you wrote "1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1".

God is not made up of parts or components, and each Person of the Trinity is not some fraction of a greater whole. The Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, the Holy Spirit is fully God. This is where I'll say it is indeed legitimately hard to understand. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God, they all share the same substance, but each Person is fully God, each is not a part of a whole.

The compromised "three persons" view of the relationship of God the Father to God the Son and with God the Holy Spirit, as mandated at the Ecumenical Council of Nicea in 325 AD is what started the misunderstanding. Out of that is why we have the Islamic ideology of today.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Since God isn't "a being," why should God be limited to the same criterion as those of us who are "a being?"

Was Jesus, peace be with him a "being" ?
..or maybe he was/is God .. or maybe He's the son and God is the Father..
..or ..or ..or

total confusion .. greek/roman mythology .. Jesus, peace be with him, would never have HEARD of 'logos' .. the antichrist is often depicted as 'united nations' .. the 'eye' on the dollar etc.

satan is at work .. he corrupts our souls with lies that we go along with, as it brings us privilege .. that's why there are so many denominations. The history of 'the church' in Europe is one of deceit.
All Praise is for The God, who has enlightened us to truth and freed us from the deceit of others!

 

[Ingledsva]

I hate quotation walls. Nor do I have the knowledge or patience to refute your 'point'.

Look, do really think that your 'brilliant' insight into the Scriptures and their meaning is something that the Church and her greatest minds have somehow overlooked for the past two-thousand years? Very unlikely. Do you really believe that the Church Fathers and the great theologians of Christian history were all just that oblivious?

Another question, how much Greek do you actually understand? Or are you just pandering a narrative that you've learned from someone else?

LOL! This is quite often the kind of reply I get from angry people that can't refute what I have said.

If you do not like what I have said - rebut it.

*

 

[Glaurung]

LOL! This is quite often the kind of reply I get from angry people that can't refute what I have said.

I'm not upset if that's what you're reading in to me.

It's not that you can't be refuted, it's that as of this moment I don't have the knowledge to do so.The question becomes is it worth going though each and every quotation and researching why you're wrong, taking things out of context, or giving dubious translations which others have already exposed you to be doing?

You can declare victory all you want, you 'win' the augment. But you know as well as I that you have an obvious agenda to push and thus you're simply not honest with the subject matter. Why should I trust your judgement on a subject on which you have no authority? Again, do you actually know Greek?

 

[sojourner]

Was Jesus, peace be with him a "being" ?

Jesus was fully human and fully Divine.

maybe he was/is God

He is -- fully.

He's the son and God is the Father

Jesus is the Son -- and God. The Father is also God.

total confusion

Not at all. It doesn't confuse me in the least.

satan is at work .. he corrupts our souls with lies that we go along with, as it brings us privilege .. that's why there are so many denominations.

No it's not. Satan is a literary device.

 

[Ingledsva]

Your translation seems problematic given that no greek words that can be translated "for" or "fulfilled" appear anywhere in that verse. πριν means before or until and is never translated "for" in the way you are suggesting, which would typically be the word γαρ. You've correctly identified that γενεσθαι is an infinitive form of gignomai ("to come to be"), but it's in the aorist, which is a aspect of infinitive English doesn't have, and indicates completed action at some undefined time in the past. That's why it's translated "was"

πριν Αβρααμ γενεσθαι, εγο ειμι
before Abraham came to be, I am

is a very literal translation, but there isn't really any room to add "fullfiled" (πλεροω), which is crucial for you to make sense of your translation, and which isn't present at all.

Baloney, you know very well that πριν is also old world, ere, and for, both obviously having "before" association.

You also know γενεσθαι is also - to fulfilled be, to come to be

For Abraham to fulfilled be, I exist.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

This one should be translated differently -

John 8:58 Said he Iesous, Amen, Amen, saying to them, for Abraham to be fulfilled, I am (I exist.)

In other words a claim to be the Hebrew Messiah, from the Seed of Abraham (King David.)

Abraham was promised, and he prophesied about, the coming Messiah.

To Abraham - Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

The Messiah comes from his line.

Genesis:49:10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people"

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In John 8:58 He is claiming to be THE PROMISE = THE MESSIAH - through ABRAHAM promised in Gen 12:3..

The FULFILLMENT of Gen 12:3.

Read the whole section discussing ABRAHAM -

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

...taking things out of context, or giving dubious translations which others have already exposed you to be doing?
...

And where would that be? Note that I always rebut their rebuttal.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Apart from this being nonsense in Greek, those who require translations are still left with "the logos became flesh..." in John. You believe that Jesus was God's law?

God's lawyer, filled with the Logos.

*

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

I guess the Jews felt the same way about Jesus and his disciples. A first century heretical sect...except that there is no such word as heresy in the Bible.

If people had stuck to the popular view of what was acceptable truth to a Jew, no one would have followed Christ....would they? Those that stuck with the religious leaders of the day, were responsible for putting their own Messiah to death. The devil has a way of making what is right seem wrong...and vice versa. What a clever little devil.



Well actually Jesus foretold exactly that Christianity would fall into apostasy.
The parable of the wheat and the weeds is telling us that the devil is responsible for sowing seeds of false Christianity in the same field as the sower of the fine seed. (Matt 13:24-30, 36-40)

The apostles too foretold this apostasy. Why does the church pretend that it didn't happen? An apostasy from Christianity was beginning in the first century and it was to grow like "weeds" until the harvest time. (Matt 13:24-30, 36-40; 1 Tim 4:1-3; 2 Pet 2:1-3; 2 Tim 2:16-19) Only then was a complete separation to take place.


The apostate one? YES!!! Thank God!

Like I said, can you name me any similarities between first century apostolic Christians and the fourth century Catholic Church instituted by a pagan (sun worshipping) Roman Emperor? I see none.

I can give you a long list of opposites though.

RE "no such word as heresy"etc.
See 2 Pt. 2:1 KJV &NIV

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jesus was fully human and fully Divine.
...
Jesus is the Son -- and God. The Father is also God.

What you don't seem to realise, is that you are contradicting yourself..

If Almighty God creates human beings [he does!], then He created Jesus, peace be with him.

However, if Jesus is 'fully God' then Almighty God created himself .. you might be happy with such illogicality, but I'm NOT!
In Islam, the concept of God makes TOTAL sense.

Before I knew better, I just accepted it (ie. when I was raised as Church of England), although it didn't really make much sense to me .. they said it was 'a mystery'

 

[Spiderman]

It is God communing with mankind in three different forms.

God can come in the form of human because we are made in his image. He is also spirit. We are bothe flesh and spirit. He chose to come in the flesh as well.

 

[sojourner]

What you don't seem to realise, is that you are contradicting yourself..

What you don't seem to understand is that you're conflating terms. "God" and "father," within the scope of the doctrine of the Trinity, are not particularly interchangeable. "God" is a more generalized term, while "Father" is a ore specialized term. So, when speaking within the confines of the Trinity, one cannot say "God created Jesus." One says, "The Father begat the Son." Two separate Persons, distinguishable from each other, but whose substance is "God."

If Almighty God creates human beings [he does!], then He created Jesus, peace be with him.

That's not what the doctrine says. The Father begat the Son. "God" didn't "create" Jesus.

However, if Jesus is 'fully God' then Almighty God created himself

No, according to the doctrine, The Father is Creator, the Son is the begotten. Both are substantially God.

you might be happy with such illogicality, but I'm NOT!

You might try actually following the doctrine, rather than misunderstanding and misquoting it. It's your misapprehension here that's illogical -- not the doctrine.

 

[muhammad_isa]

"God" and "father," within the scope of the doctrine of the Trinity, are not particularly interchangeable.

Huh? Either the Father is God or the Father is NOT God .. or is it something in between

..when speaking within the confines of the Trinity, one cannot say "God created Jesus." One says, "The Father begat the Son." Two separate Persons, distinguishable from each other, but whose substance is "God."

But I was just told that Jesus is FULLY God .. what does that mean, if Jesus & the Father are 2 separate persons?

Is Almighty God a human being .. or is He not? A simple question, but your answer is illogical
ie. Jesus is fully God .. that means God is a human being .. but wait .. not within the confines of the trinity

No, according to the doctrine, The Father is Creator, the Son is the begotten. Both are substantially God.

What does 'begotten' mean in this context?

 

[JayJayDee]

RE "no such word as heresy"etc.
See 2 Pt. 2:1 KJV &NIV

According to Wiki....

"The term heresy is from Greek αἵρεσις originally meant "choice" or "thing chosen",[6] but it came to mean the "party or school of a man's choice"[7] and also referred to that process whereby a young person would examine various philosophies to determine how to live. The word "heresy" is usually used within a Christian, Jewish, or Islamic context, and implies slightly different meanings in each. The founder or leader of a heretical movement is called a heresiarch, while individuals who espouse heresy or commit heresy are known as heretics."

So the original word was not really what Catholicism made it out to be....a crime that carried the death penalty.
No Christian was ever authorized to execute or torture someone for heresy (apostasy).....that was Christ's job. (2 Thess 1:6-9) The worst penalty that could be imposed was excommunication....nothing more.

You might want to look up Strongs Concordance concerning the translation of this word....

Hairesis - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Haireomai - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

These references will show that the word for "heresy" in 2 Pet 2:1 is translated "sects" and "factions" in all other instances.

So technically speaking, any "sect" or "faction" of Christendom can be called a heresy in that case. I guess the Catholic Church thought so.