Why is the concept of the trinity so poorly understood (or often straw manned)?

[sojourner]

That's not logical .. Almighty God is the Fairest of ALL Judges. He would not make it difficult for us to understand the difference between right and wrong!

I didn't say right and wrong is hard to grasp. I said God is hard to grasp. If you think you've got a decent handle on God, you're fooling yourself. If you can name a thing, you can control a thing. Are you saying you can control God?

 

[Midget01]

The argument of Christianity being pagan based on having the 3 deities that are the Trinity is just ridiculous. 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 isn't that hard to understand, especially when you understand the solar aspects of the symbolism. My question is are these people just anti-religious fundies practicing willful ignorance, is it a straw man, or is there something legitimately hard to understand?

Haha, I understand. I was referencing the whole " how does 1+1+1=1" critique of the Trinity.

Dear Unknowing: First of all if you totally understood you would be God but when you have someone or something that has 3 natures and you cannot separate them; you discover there is still one person. For example If you are a mother, a sister and a wife each of these natures do different functions and are viewed differently by the way others understand their functions yet when any person looks at you they still see only one person. This is not pagan based. The true concept of trinity did not reveal itself in the beginning of time. The Isrealites grew into the concept of spirit Pneuma or Rehua but it wasn't until Christ was born and filled in the prophecy that the trinity became something to understand. So yes indirectly 1+!+1 does = 1. For most believers this is not a question. If you read your scripture we read in the Pentateuch or Old Testament that God and the Spirit existed. Yet when we read in the New Testament how the gospel writers mention that the heavens opened up and God revealed His son and the Holy spirit hung over Him showed that the 3 are one. Just because Jesus is called son there is no reason to believe He is not also God for Him and the Father are one. I admit it is hard for those who are not Catholic of any type to understand the deeper meaning; but one cannot separate them. Read the Shack a protestant view. At moments a little bit out of my comfort Zone but at the same time does a beautiful way of expressing God, Jesus, Holy spirit and this man's form of trinity. Yet they remain and operate together. Trinity = love and Divine Love cannot be torn into pieces. I hope this sheds some light on it. I don't profess to be an expert; but I also know it to be true there is a Trinity. Once I get to heaven I will understand it completely but because I don't doesn't change my acceptance of Trinity or my faith. God gave me the gift of belief - Him and I talk daily and we have a wonderful relationship. It's a personal private faith I am not a preacher or Holy Roller but I belief and others just know that you can't separate me from whom I am. I don't force my faith on anyone else. If they ask I answer and let God do the rest. Peace Shalom Salaam Midget 01

 

[Koldo]

No, it doesn't. The Father isn't added to the Son, & etc. to equal "God." The Father is fully God by himself. The Son is fully God by himself. And, together, they are one God.

I don't think it is possible to accurately represent the situation using simple math. However, I don't think your criticism is proper. To say that the father/son/holy spirit is represented by '1' and that god is also represented by '1' is to say that they are individually and collectively fully the same god. Therefore, you are actually in agreement that '1+1+1=1' since you are saying pretty much the same thing as '1+1+1=1'.

 

[Koldo]

I've always seen it as being no different than any person is always more than just "one" person. You're a different person to your boss, to your mother, to your brother. They're all facets of your personality. They aren't exactly separate

people but they aren't all the same thing either. They're important parts of what make up "you". I do not see why this wouldn't apply to a God or Gods.

It is only tricky when you start talking to yourself as if it was someone else.

 

[Nietzsche]

It is only tricky when you start talking to yourself as if it was someone else.

Fair point.

 

[Hawkins]

The argument of Christianity being pagan based on having the 3 deities that are the Trinity is just ridiculous. 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 isn't that hard to understand, especially when you understand the solar aspects of the symbolism. My question is are these people just anti-religious fundies practicing willful ignorance, is it a straw man, or is there something legitimately hard to understand?

Or rather is it normal you as man don't or can't understand God fully?

 

[viole]

Or rather is it normal you as man don't or can't understand God fully?

So, how do you know that you are right about Him?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Midget01]

Yes....it's called Biblical truth, as opposed to adopted falsehood.

Please show us in the Bible where God is broken up into "thirds".

Sweat Heart God is not broken up into thirds. If you believe that you have created a heresy. God has 2 divine natures but is spoken of as 3 in 1-Trinity. The Spirit which was known as Pneuma or Ruah BCE Before the Common ERA or in another words before Christ was a way of coming to understand the supernatural that they were experiencing at that time. As the society grew they came to know that through all of their oral tradition which existed then and was treasured and held as the Sacred Word. Some seemed to understand and believe and others could not grasp this concept. Like today there are many who believe God is dead. This is far from true. If He were we would not be breathing either. This concept of spirit was varied but well known prior to writing things down in our society. IT wasn't until the early monks tried to pen God's words so that each clan or grouping of people gathered together to share their knowledge of God did they actually put it on paper. The early Monks who lived in Monasteries live secluded , prayed without ceasing daily to God for the Whole World and themselves of course. But they put down the words on Scrolls of parchment and skins to preserve what the communities around them believed. We know this because in the mid 50's Archeologists discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls and verified much of what we know today. Then in the mid 1500's with the advent of the printing press were actual copies made for the rich people to read. The poor people had no clue and usually left it up to the Priests and Ministers to verbalize what was on paper. Yet as we read through the Scriptures referred to as Bible today we come to the understanding that God existed from the beginning along with the Holy spirit because it suggests that the Spirit Ruah or Pneuma hovered over the waters in Genesis. They knew there was something there and they were not in control. But when Jesus appeared on this earth as prophesized; it was obvious at His Baptism in the lake that God, the Holy Spirit revealed that this man Jesus was His Son and thus projected to the world at that time that the Trinity was alive at that point in time all three were one. But God had not previously revealed this to them. Not all Men were made aware of God's movements on this earth just like today. Believing Many protestants think they can read ,memorize the bible and act like they know the whole book but every time you read it God reveals much more and when you enter into ecumenical dialogues you discover one can never know it in total all that God reveals to man. Even if you sat and read every day; God constantly reveals Himself to us our concepts would change over time influenced by God and the World. .We have people today who don't have the full understanding of history of our world and they criticize God, the Trinity and many early churches because they are trying to prove that what they have discovered to be true. Yet How can they deny something that has been transcribed over 2,000 years old as being tampered with. Parts of the bible date back to 5778 BCE years ago.The Jewish Faith existed next to Zoroanstranism and probably a few other faiths that did not survive because they were more of cult. But when you are able to search back through history one can discover for yourselves that what the Catholic Church teaches and prints in the (their) Bible is put in there by Ancients (community Elders) with authority handed down through the history of our world does match up with older religions and beliefs from the beginning of the world. The early Bible was Verbal there were no tabs, or ways to number their text. Numbering was a cleaver way to help modern man find his way through the text. Perhaps because of discussions and arguments this helped them prove their theory easier. There are many biblical scholars today who are all on the same page. The differences occur more so among the small congregations of unlearned people and the media which at times appears to be guided by Satan who would love for all of God's church to Fail. You can have 10 people gathered, give them a passage and they all will get something different from it every time. While God does reveal Himself in different ways we come to know God also by exposing ourselves to earthly experiences such as : History, knowledge of the writer and the area in which the l writer lived, worked and worshipped. God used him to reach his community in which he lived. If a news paper today writes a story about say the Super Bowl and one of the teams is from their town you better believe their article will be biased according to that team. Consequently if the opposing team has a paper that paper will make them look good because they support their local team. While God inspired the people who wrote the Bible He also allowed them to speak in a way their community would understand. It was not originally written for us. The fact that mankind can still get something out of it today is a blessing. The fact that people fight /struggle to understand Him means we all need our creator. This should tell us that God is still with us and watching over us. Our God is not a controlling God we all have freedom to chose Him or not; He doesn't force us to believe or do anything. Faith is what we believe in and Religion is how we practice what we believe.

 

[sojourner]

I don't think it is possible to accurately represent the situation using simple math. However, I don't think your criticism is proper. To say that the father/son/holy spirit is represented by '1' and that god is also represented by '1' is to say that they are individually and collectively fully the same god. Therefore, you are actually in agreement that '1+1+1=1' since you are saying pretty much the same thing as '1+1+1=1'.

No, because the Persons aren't added together to create a sum. There is no sum, because there are no parts. 1 is 1. Each Person is fully the one God. All Persons are fully the one God.

 

[JayJayDee]

And yet, "Ho, everyone who thirsts,
come to the waters;
and you that have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without price."

Don't we need to take the scriptures as a whole sojourner? We can all cherry-pick isolated verses out of the Bible but what is the overall message?

What Jesus is offering is indeed free....but it is not without condition. Continued life in the garden of Eden was dependant on continued obedience to God. When the humans disobeyed, they lost their right to continue living. What makes us think that disobedience today will result in a different outcome?

There are far more of them than anyone else, to begin with. It only stands to reason that there would be more illiterate ones. and, BTW, "gullible?" You're the one out trudging in the heat and cold. Just sayin'.

I guess the underlying truth in that statement is that we as Christians are commanded by Jesus to go "out trudging in the heat and cold" to find the truth seekers who are out there. Jesus told us to "search" for these ones and offer them the good news. (Matt 10:11-15)

If you were lost and a search party was assigned to search for you, how would you like them to look for you?....like the Catholic Church or like JW's? It's about obedience and accountability. Its about loving our neighbors enough to give up our time and resources to actually do what Jesus commanded us to do. When lives are at stake, do we refrain from 'bothering' people, or do we seize every opportunity to tell them the truth so that they can be saved?

Not everyone wants to hear the truth. A comfortable lie is what they choose. Change is not easy. But if we love the truth, we will do what is necessary to make those necessary changes. Do we really love God and his truth enough to make the sacrifices? Only we can answer that question.

You don't feel that it's plain mean and very unacceptable to destroy peoples' beliefs, just to teach them "truths" that are wholly unfounded and misunderstood. That's almost worse than all the radicalizing being carried out by fringe Muslims these days.

Well I guess you would have to apply that to Jesus himself. Was he "mean" for exposing the teachings of the Pharisees as unacceptable "traditions of men"? Weren't the Jews told not to believe him and his disciples when they exposed them as hypocrites and negligent shepherds? He called their teachings "leaven".....corrupt.

The truths we preach are not unfounded at all. The misunderstandings are all in a religious system that has taught its adherents from birth that what it teaches is truth. Exposing those teachings for what they are is confronting, but certainly you cannot deny them. If you do, where does that leave you? Just because you love something doesn't make it acceptable to God nor does it make it good for you.

I have statues and several rosaries. they mean a great deal to me; most of them were gifts -- and they remind me of God's imminence. I pray formula prayers; I know them by memory, they're familiar -- as familiar as the beating of my heart. And you're acting like a boor here. You need to remember that Catholics are people to be loved -- not objects to be dusted off and changed.

And here you have exactly what I was alluding to. For the majority, the comfortable lie is better than an inconvenient truth. Idolatry is condemned in God's word. In the 10 Commandments, God said it was the "making" of images to use in worship that was forbidden, not just the method of veneration. Veneration is worship. Who can deny that images are venerated in Catholicism? It is what it is...not what you call it.

If telling people that inconvenient truth is being a boor, then Jesus was a boor too. The Pharisees obviously thought so.

You're projecting.

Are you in denial? Does history lie? Do the scriptures that foretold this apostasy also lie? The apostasy was beginning in the first century but the apostles kept it under control, but after they died....the weeds flourished. Roman Catholicism was a product of those weeds. Those who love the truth can see it clearly. I wish you could.

Hah! That's a laugh! Everything in Xy is borrowed from non-Christian religions. Everything.

That statement is proof that you have no faith in God's word. If you have studied the Bible (rather than church doctrine) you would see the big picture. You would understand that the devil is a mimic. This is part of his MO. This is why the weeds were not uprooted at the start. By the time of the harvest, those who had chosen the truth would be completely separate from those who had chosen the apostasy as their truth.

You are correct.....but it is everything in Christendom that is borrowed from non-Christian religions. True Christianity was cleansed when the "final part of the days" began. (Dan 12:9, 10) Cleansing and refining are processes that take time, so that is why we examined all things in the light of scripture and gradually eliminated everything that was introduced from outside of God's truth.

So. What.?! Xy is a relative newcomer to the religious scene. It's appropriated and mimicked lots of different religions. It was never as pure and undefiled as you'd like to think it is -- even your precious JW nonsense.

Look what you just said! Can truth "appropriate and mimic" falsehood and remain acceptable to God? We are clearly told by the apostle Paul to "separate" from those things.....failure to do that will result in rejection as God's "sons and daughters". (2 Cor 6:14-18)
This is serious stuff.

The high and mighty attitude you're displaying here is oddly reminiscent of the Judaic Pharisees...

Why is it "high and mighty" to tell the truth?

Can I say that your response is very like the Pharisees response to Jesus' teachings? Refusing to acknowledge the truth is spiritual suicide. But we each get to make our choices, based on what we accept as "our" truth. Justifying falsehood has become an art form but we will all 'reap what we have sown'....some of us will unfortunately reap what others have sown. Placing our trust in the wrong people.

You should be wondering about A. Lot. of things. You don't know a thing about me, so don't go around thinking you know more than me, or know better than me, or are "more saved" than me. you should be wondering why your posts are so attitudinal.

As one who came out of Christendom many years ago, I can honestly say 'thank you' to the ones who taught me the truth. We all have the ability to choose what we will accept. It tells God a lot about who we are and what place truth has in our hearts.

If I can get one person to re-evaluate what they believe and to study the Bible with a fresh approach, then I have done my job. All I am is a messenger. You can accept the message or reject it.

From the same place the bible came from -- Tradition. You judge Catholics and Xy at large, but you're no better than any of it, because you're part of it.

I judge no one. I am not authorized to do that. My job is proclaiming the truth and giving people a more informed choice. I can't convert anyone. Only God can do that.

If what I say is making you defensive, then it is clear that you have no defence for your Church's teachings, history and religious practices.

I invite you to compare what the first Christians did and believed with what your church turned Christianity into. I see no similarity at all.

There is one truth, and we are all under obligation to find it if we want what God is offering.
Jesus said that the preaching of his disciples would be the only "witness" (testimony) that people would get. (Matt 24:14) The "good news" has been "preached in all the inhabited earth" in these "last days", but Jesus already said that "few" would be saved. (Matt 7:13, 14)

He used the "days of Noah" as an example of what was to come. (Matt 23:36-39; 2 Pet 2:5, 6) Why did people ignore Noah? If you can answer that question, then you have the answer to why "few" will survive the "end of the age" to come.

Crunch time is coming. Our future is in our own hands.

 

[Koldo]

No, because the Persons aren't added together to create a sum. There is no sum, because there are no parts. 1 is 1. Each Person is fully the one God. All Persons are fully the one God.

'1+1+1=1' means they aren't being added together to create a sum. Otherwise it would be '1+1+1=3'.

 

[sojourner]

'1+1+1=1' means they aren't being added together to create a sum. Otherwise it would be '1+1+1=3'.

Why are we arguing math instead of theology?

 

[Koldo]

Why are we arguing math instead of theology?

I am going to quote myself: "I don't think it is possible to accurately represent the situation using simple math. However, I don't think your criticism is proper. To say that the father/son/holy spirit is represented by '1' and that god is also represented by '1' is to say that they are individually and collectively fully the same god. Therefore, you are actually in agreement that '1+1+1=1' since you are saying pretty much the same thing as '1+1+1=1'."

 

[sojourner]

We can all cherry-pick isolated verses out of the Bible but what is the overall message?

There is no "overall message." There are overarching themes, though, one of which is that God loves us and saves us.

What Jesus is offering is indeed free....but it is not without condition.

Then it isn't free.

When the humans disobeyed, they lost their right to continue living.

No, when humanity ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they were barred from the tree of life.

If you were lost and a search party was assigned to search for you, how would you like them to look for you?....like the Catholic Church or like JW's?

The Catholic church does a really good job of social justice ministry -- going out to find the lost ones. "Saving someone" does not include shattering their faith for some unsubstantial "truth."

It's about obedience and accountability.

It's about love.

When lives are at stake, do we refrain from 'bothering' people, or do we seize every opportunity to tell them the truth so that they can be saved?

Lives aren't at stake. Jesus took care of that little problem a long time ago.

Not everyone wants to hear the truth. A comfortable lie is what they choose.

You're projecting again.

Well I guess you would have to apply that to Jesus himself. Was he "mean" for exposing the teachings of the Pharisees as unacceptable "traditions of men"?

We're not talking about God Incarnate. We're talking about human beings who don't have the whole truth.

The truths we preach are not unfounded at all.

I believe they are.

The misunderstandings are all in a religious system that has taught its adherents from birth that what it teaches is truth. Exposing those teachings for what they are is confronting, but certainly you cannot deny them.

The misunderstandings are all in a religious group that has a biased vendetta against the historic church.

Just because you love something doesn't make it acceptable to God nor does it make it good for you.

If you love something, you respect it and don't abuse it.

And here you have exactly what I was alluding to. For the majority, the comfortable lie is better than an inconvenient truth. Idolatry is condemned in God's word.

And here's where your "truth" is unfounded. Statuary and rosaries aren't "idolatry."

Who can deny that images are venerated in Catholicism? It is what it is...not what you call it.

I can deny it. The images aren't venerated. The God the images portray is venerated. You don't understand it; you misapprehend it, so you don't like it.

If telling people that inconvenient truth is being a boor, then Jesus was a boor too. The Pharisees obviously thought so.

You're not telling an inconvenient truth, though. Therein lies the difference.

Does history lie?

People lie about history.

Do the scriptures that foretold this apostasy also lie?

How some understand the scriptures misinterpret.

The apostasy was beginning in the first century but the apostles kept it under control, but after they died....the weeds flourished. Roman Catholicism was a product of those weeds. Those who love the truth can see it clearly. I wish you could.

Aaaaand the misapprehension continues unabated. You're so afraid of being wrong that you have to invent stuff in order to be right.

That statement is proof that you have no faith in God's word.

No. it's not proof of that at all.

If you have studied the Bible (rather than church doctrine) you would see the big picture.

Spent years doing just that. Been invited to write a scholastic paper on part of it.

You would understand that the devil is a mimic.

I understand that the devil is a literary device.

You are correct.....but it is everything in Christendom that is borrowed from non-Christian religions. True Christianity was cleansed when the "final part of the days" began. (Dan 12:9, 10) Cleansing and refining are processes that take time, so that is why we examined all things in the light of scripture and gradually eliminated everything that was introduced from outside of God's truth.

Translation: "We screwed over and rebuilt everything, and then said that the poor copy was "right" and the original was "wrong."
It's called "revisionist history." And it's deceptive.

Can truth "appropriate and mimic" falsehood and remain acceptable to God? We are clearly told by the apostle Paul to "separate" from those things.....failure to do that will result in rejection as God's "sons and daughters". (2 Cor 6:14-18)
This is serious stuff.

I don't think other religions are false. That's the real difference between you and me. You're afraid of other expressions of truth, so you call it "false."

Why is it "high and mighty" to tell the truth?

Because you assume that what you "know" is the "truth," and then you tear apart the systems that work for other people. It's entitlement.

Can I say that your response is very like the Pharisees response to Jesus' teachings?

You just did.

Refusing to acknowledge the truth is spiritual suicide.

So is the refusal to accept others and their truths with respect and love.

Justifying falsehood has become an art form

You're a Rembrandt...

As one who came out of Christendom many years ago, I can honestly say 'thank you' to the ones who taught me the truth.

That's great for you! I'm truthfully happy for you that you discovered a mythic construct that works for you. That being said, that doesn't give you free reign to ruin what works for the rest of us.

We all have the ability to choose what we will accept.

Yes we do. What we don't have is the right to trample what others accept.

If I can get one person to re-evaluate what they believe and to study the Bible with a fresh approach, then I have done my job.

Why do you feel this insatiable need to have others' beliefs be "wrong" and in need of your correction and reevaluation?

You can accept the message or reject it.

I reject it, and you need to respect that and stop trying to "save" me. We disagree about truth -- that's OK. I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is the tactic of revisionist history -- the denial of fact in justifying your truth.

I judge no one. I am not authorized to do that.

You judge my beliefs. Stop. It.!

My job is proclaiming the truth and giving people a more informed choice.

your choices aren't "informed," because they don't line up with what we factually know.

If what I say is making you defensive

You're not making me defensive -- you're pi$$ing me off. There's a big difference.

I invite you to compare what the first Christians did and believed with what your church turned Christianity into.

"My" church (a rabid assumption on your part, BTW) hasn't "turned" Xy "into" anything.

There is one truth

There's your big mistake right there.

Crunch time is coming. Our future is in our own hands.

Maudlin crap and fear tactic. Our future is now, the kindom has come near, and humanity is reconciled to God.

 

[JayJayDee]

Maudlin crap and fear tactic. Our future is now, the kindom has come near, and humanity is reconciled to God.

All duly noted. My job is done. Have a nice life sojourner.

 

[sojourner]

All duly noted. My job is done. Have a nice life sojourner.

Glad we understand each other. I respect what you believe. You may expect to hear rom me if you don't respect the truths of others.

 

[JayJayDee]

Glad we understand each other. I respect what you believe. You may expect to hear rom me if you don't respect the truths of others.

I don't respect things that are not true, so how could I respect untruth in other's beliefs? I can allow them to believe whatever they like but it's my job to tell the truth. I hope it is your job too. How can one make informed choices without information? I have studied the Bible with enough Catholic people to know that truth is not given to them. Indoctrination into false worship from birth is not necessarily truth, even if we accept it as such. The Jews proved that.

There are not many versions of truth.....there are only people's perceptions of what appears to be truth. Unless our beliefs are challenged, who can know? In the final outcome, we will all know one way or the other, won't we? Who will be able to say they were not told?

The one truth that we can all agree on is that we can't all be right.

 

[sojourner]

how could I respect untruth in other's beliefs?

It's not up to you to make that determination. you're neither qualified nor invited to do so.

I can allow them to believe whatever they like but it's my job to tell the truth.

Sure. Everyone is encouraged to speak their truth. But that truth doesn't include bashing others' beliefs. For example: I don't agree with Mormonism. I just don't think it has any credible basis (sorry, guys!). But I don't constantly beat my Mormon sisters and brothers over the head with that "truth." Because it's not their truth. You're under no obligation to bash others.

How can one make informed choices without information?

Wait! When did spiritual wellness become a matter of a shopping spree???

I have studied the Bible with enough Catholic people to know that truth is not given to them.

Or, maybe your truth isn't given to them. Neither is theirs given to you.

Indoctrination into false worship from birth is not necessarily truth, even if we accept it as such.

Who gets to decide what constitutes "false worship?" You? The Pope?

There are not many versions of truth

How many people are there? Each one has her/his truth.

there are only people's perceptions of what appears to be truth.

Therfore, by your own definition, you only have your perception of the truth, and are, therefore unqualified to dictate your version to anyone else.

The one truth that we can all agree on is that we can't all be right.

I don't think it's about "right" or "wrong." I think it's more about fidelity and congruity.

 

[Ouroboros]

There is one truth

There's your big mistake right there.

I totally agree with you.

There's not one single truth. I've been thinking about how it would be to approach an infinitesimal small dot. Basically, any approach, from any angle around it, all can get closer but never be at the "zero" point. It's like origin in a coordinate system. -1 is just as far from 0 as 1. -0.5 as much as 0.5. Both are equally close. And I think this applies to the truth of reality. There are several, many, perhaps infinite number of "truths" that all describe, or point to the same Truth (which we never can fully understand). I can't help but to think of the blind men describing the elephant.

 

[Ingledsva]

The argument of Christianity being pagan based on having the 3 deities that are the Trinity is just ridiculous. 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 isn't that hard to understand, especially when you understand the solar aspects of the symbolism. My question is are these people just anti-religious fundies practicing willful ignorance, is it a straw man, or is there something legitimately hard to understand?

There is no trinity in the Bible, nor was such taught by Jesus.

*