sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
"Married" and "bachelor" are human constructs and human concepts. In fact, many people are just that. ever hear of "football widows?"
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Why is the concept of the trinity so poorly understood (or often straw manned)?
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
We could have a mythic debate.
Because the mythic is a huge component of theological endeavor.
I (and others) understand the Trinity. It's a mythic, not an empirical concept.
I (and others) don't find the Trinity "absurd."
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
If we understand the follies we place upon God (such as the tired "if God's all-powerful, could God create a rock so big that God couldn't move it?" argument), then we understand that God is as limited as we choose to make God. But limitations of such a nature aren't commensurate with the mythic aspect of the God-concept.
So, do you think that God could make a rock so heavy that He cannot lift?
Ciao
- viole
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I don't think God "lifts rocks."
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It's a false conundrum. It places a false meaning on the term "omnipotent."
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Yes .. I totally agree with you. Strange though .. when it comes to the trinity, then illogicality is acceptable.
Are you sure it's not just a case of familiarity, and culture why this is so?
rbj
rbj
Maya Kaath
Mage
I was able to make sense of the concept of Trinity with this metaphor that Bahá'u'lláh uses in His writings:
"The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace...hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men.... These sanctified Mirrors, these Daysprings of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. .… These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest." —
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 250
This is the same imagery used in the Bible. In Hebrews, we're told that Jesus is a reflection or express image of the Father. In Gethsemane, He prays to God, saying “I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." — John 17:6
In Paul's epistles, he also uses this metaphor, referring to the presence of Christ as "beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord".
"This is the meaning of the Messiah’s words, that the Father is in the Son. Dost thou not see that should a stainless mirror proclaim, “Verily is the sun ashine within me, together with all its qualities, tokens and signs,” such an utterance by such a mirror would be neither deceptive nor false? No, by the One Who created It, shaped It, fashioned It, and made It to be an entity conformable to the attributes of the glory within It!" —Abdu'l-Bahá
I don't think for a moment that the Manifestations of God use these metaphors lightly. So, think about the metaphor of the Sun (God) reflected in a Mirror (the Manifestation). The Sun does not physically descend into the Mirror, but through the agency of Light (the Holy Spirit), which is an emanation of its glory, all of its qualities and its form are reflected in the Mirror in a way that is, at least ideally, comprehensible to us humans. The Mirror doesn't sacrifice its physical form; the Sun does not sacrifice its spiritual reality; but the Sun appears in the Mirror.
I think where the Trinity becomes a reason for hatred and bloodshed, it does so because we attache such importance to assigning a physical or materialistic reality to something that is, by its nature, spiritual and beyond our current frame of reference. Bahá'u'lláh's metaphor is beautiful and apt and instructive and I grasp it easily, but I would be foolish to try to assign mechanisms to it and to then insist that everyone understand those necessarily human mechanisms exactly as I do.
"The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace...hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men.... These sanctified Mirrors, these Daysprings of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. .… These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest." —
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 250
This is the same imagery used in the Bible. In Hebrews, we're told that Jesus is a reflection or express image of the Father. In Gethsemane, He prays to God, saying “I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." — John 17:6
In Paul's epistles, he also uses this metaphor, referring to the presence of Christ as "beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord".
"This is the meaning of the Messiah’s words, that the Father is in the Son. Dost thou not see that should a stainless mirror proclaim, “Verily is the sun ashine within me, together with all its qualities, tokens and signs,” such an utterance by such a mirror would be neither deceptive nor false? No, by the One Who created It, shaped It, fashioned It, and made It to be an entity conformable to the attributes of the glory within It!" —Abdu'l-Bahá
I don't think for a moment that the Manifestations of God use these metaphors lightly. So, think about the metaphor of the Sun (God) reflected in a Mirror (the Manifestation). The Sun does not physically descend into the Mirror, but through the agency of Light (the Holy Spirit), which is an emanation of its glory, all of its qualities and its form are reflected in the Mirror in a way that is, at least ideally, comprehensible to us humans. The Mirror doesn't sacrifice its physical form; the Sun does not sacrifice its spiritual reality; but the Sun appears in the Mirror.
I think where the Trinity becomes a reason for hatred and bloodshed, it does so because we attache such importance to assigning a physical or materialistic reality to something that is, by its nature, spiritual and beyond our current frame of reference. Bahá'u'lláh's metaphor is beautiful and apt and instructive and I grasp it easily, but I would be foolish to try to assign mechanisms to it and to then insist that everyone understand those necessarily human mechanisms exactly as I do.
Nobleson99
New Member
Perhaps the reason the Trinity concept is hard to grasp is because it's false and was a made up concept and has nothing to do with the Creator of the universe.
Nobleson99
New Member
That's an interesting question. I was taught that there is only one thing God cannot do, and it encompasses questions like this.
God cannot become less than God, and still be God. God (as used in religion) is a title that comes with some responsibilities. All-powerful. All-knowing. Omnipresent. If God suddenly is less than All-powerful, then He fails having a quality that only God has and is no longer God. That cannot happen.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Take a look around you at what claims to be "Christianity" today, and then compare what Paul said at 1 Cor 1:10.
If Christ returned tomorrow, who would he claim as his own? (Matt 7:21-23)
As the last days draw to a close, the sheep who have the most advance warning and opportunity would probably have been brought into the fold first. (So called Christian countries) Then the more difficult rescues could be undertaken in more challenged nations where Christianity is virtually unknown or is of the 'weed-like' variety. Jesus asked his disciples to beg the master for more workers in his harvest. It makes sense that he would glean those workers from among those who already professed belief. Just as Jesus gained his disciples from among the Jewish believers first and then his disciples moved onto the Gentiles.
Those in the grave have already made a record with God. Even unrighteous ones will be resurrected, having paid sin's wages, Jesus sacrifice makes it possible to return to life with all past sins forgiven. (John 5:28, 29)
The wicked, however, will never be seen again, sentenced to "Gehenna" (which is not hell). Everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life. God is the judge of who among the dead is "wicked" and who is "unrighteous".
We are experiencing the fulfillment of Isa 2:2-4. True Christians are now streaming into Jehovah's "mountain" and have put down their weapons and refused to learn war anymore. Christendom is still fully armed and ready to spill blood for her governments. They obey man rather than Christ who taught us to love our enemies, not kill them.
Jesus was sent only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel"....so how did these "sheep" become "lost" in the first place? The Jewish 'shepherds' failed in their duty of care. They did not do their job and for their failure, they lost out on becoming what God had promised them if they had remained faithful.
He gave that privilege to those who obeyed him. Show me where Catholicism has ever obeyed Christ and followed his model.....ever?
No, they have been kept in ignorance for centuries. It is only in these last days when knowledge was to become abundant that people can make informed choices. (Dan 12:4) The 'cleansing and refining' was to take place only in this time period. (Dan 12:9, 10)
The 'learned ones' of the Catholic Church have promoted men as leaders of the flock, and custodians of God's word, keeping it out of the hands of the common man for centuries, even punishing them for having it in their possession.....adding to their ignorance, whilst promoting their own power. Adopting fancy titles and fancy garb, decked out in in purple and scarlet with funny hats that are suspiciously like the ones used by the priests of ancient false religion.
You really should do some research outside of what I believe is your very limited view of what Christianity really is.
ImaTroll
Member
christianity does not say that 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1.
rather, christianity says that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The term "manifest" means more than simply "image," as far as the doctrine of the Trinity states. Jesus isn't just a "picture" of God. Jesus is God -- fully God. Just as the Father is fully God -- not just an image or picture. Just as the Holy Spirit is fully God -- again, not just an image or picture.
If your conception isn't the heresy of Docetism, it's awfully, awfully close to it.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Perhaps the Trinity concept is hard to grasp because God is hard to grasp, and not because of its alleged "falseness."
asier9
Member
The Trinity isn't irrational at all. However it is a revealed truth. There simply isn't anything like it in any other system of belief in the world. If you believe that pagan trinities of gods are the same thing than that is simply a misunderstanding on your part. The Trinity teaches us everything about Judeo-Christinaity as the Trinity is a family unto Itself and Judeo-Christianity has to be understood through the successive covenants in which God, i.e. the Trinity, has attempted to bring us into his own family life, as intimates. From my perspective now as a convert to Catholicism, i.e. Christianity, the whole world and every family in the natural world, of both men and animals, is a reflection of this reality. The Trinity also leads to some very beautiful implications such as truth and love being one and the same thing--not only are they the same but they provide for a theory of objective truth/love which is grounded in God's ontological encounter with himself.
One thing to understand, and unfortunately psychology speaks a different language so this reality of our psychological being isn't reflected in secular psychological theories, is that there is a difference between persons and essences. For us, our essence and person are pretty much the same thing so it is not immediately apparent that this needn't be the case. However even we as humans, from a Christian perspective still do share something of a common essence with one another. This is what makes human communion, and therefore community, possible in the first place. It is also how we all came to lose Sanctifying Grace through activity of single person and how we were restored to it through the actions of another single person.
Initially upon my investigation in Catholicism, coming from a Baha'i perspective, I thought the Trinity was sheer irrationality, and I would never be able to accept it. In fact I use to argue, erroneously, it was a later invention of Christianity. Once however I came to actually understand, in the partial way we are limited to understanding it, I saw that it must always be the logical consequence of a God in whose image we are made. I reiterate the simplest formula below:
God the source and ground of all Being exists, non-contingently, in absolute simplicity, as pure act. The ground of everything is self aware, and this self awareness of God, is itself, a person. This is not very different than the narratives of ourselves that constitute the sum total of our own egos. Essentially our egotistic conception of ourselves is a story that defines who we believe we are. In God's case this Story, is a person who is a perfect, infinite fidelity of Himself, and so God comes to a perfect knowledge of His own infinite self nature through this Second Person, aka the only Begotten Son, aka the Word of God. If there is a self aware God then a Son is begotten of logical necessity and has always existed along with the Father who has begotten Him. Additionally, as soon as the Son gazes back upon the Father, encountering His own ontological reality, Truth and Love are born and are themselves personified this is a Third Person, the Holy Ghost, and since all three persons are of the one essence they are one and the same with each other. Consequently whatever the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son must must be as well. Quite frankly once this is truly grasped it becomes apparent that a God, in whose image we are made, who is not Triune is simply not logically feasible.
The three Persons of the Trinity live in total self sacrifice (love) to one another. Jesus who incarnated into the flesh (here He has become a single person with two essences--in fact I will assert that if you deny the reality of the Trinity you would then have to deny that Jesus had two natures. If this was the case than our human nature hasn't really ascended into heaven and it is not at all clear then what it would then mean to be saved. Certainly such denials have always been denounced as heresy by the Church) and is also known and the Eternal Covenant made flesh has taught us the depths of what such self giving means as he gave himself for us as St.Paul says while we were still in our sins.
The French post-structuralist Jacques Derrida wrote much in life about the impossibility of the pure gift. For humans it is impossible--at least without the grace received by saints--for us to give without some notion of economy, e.g. some notion of tit for tat, but Jesus gave himself in full acceptance of our ingratitude. In fact this is what marks the Trinity who has no need of anything outside of Itself, yet out of love and desire to share Itself created all creation. Here is where of the notion of the Covenant comes into play. A covenant is as different from a contract as marriage is from prostitution. A contract is an agreement between person for the exchange of objects or services. A convent invokes God, assuming he is real (this is a big deal because if God really exists than Covenants have real authority), and is an exchange of persons. Covenants create family bonds. God who is family, in and of Himself, wants nothing more than to make us family too. The Trinity is everywhere the Old and New Covenants (translated into Latin as Testament) of Sacred Scripture. Properly understood the very fact we divide salvation history in Old and New "Testaments", itself is logical implication of the Trinity.
Why don't people better understand this? I don't know, but it is not the only thing people fail to realize about Christianity. Since my conversion I've started to call it the greatest open secret on the planet. The Apostles who comprised the Church from the beginning took pains to teach our faith in creeds. Yet very little of what the Church has consistently and continuously held as dogma, in this manner since the beginning, is realized by even the majority of professing Catholics. The Church certainly isn't attempting to hide any of it. In fact just the opposite. However, there certainly is an overwhelming large noise to signal ratio, as practically everything outside of the Church seemingly seeks to condemn and malign it. We are barraged continuously through the mass media with negative myths about Catholicism that undoubtedly has predisposed the world, generally speaking, to a equally negative bias on a deeply unconscious level. It is as if some force in the world wants to so muddy the water that even people who sincerely search for it have difficulty seeing the bottom.
Finally I would assert that whether this is strictly true or not--although if it is not strictly true than the whole concept of strict truth must be abandoned--it deserves the respect of any cultured and intelligent person. In fact if it is not true. and therefore not really a revealed knowledge then it paradoxically becomes even more worthy of respect from a materialist perspective. Since it then world be a work of sheer human genius.
That is the irony here: There is no case that can be made for holding such ideas in contempt, except perhaps if the contemptuous persons secretly fears it is true. he contempt just doesn't make any sense if one truly believed that this was only a human artifact.
One thing to understand, and unfortunately psychology speaks a different language so this reality of our psychological being isn't reflected in secular psychological theories, is that there is a difference between persons and essences. For us, our essence and person are pretty much the same thing so it is not immediately apparent that this needn't be the case. However even we as humans, from a Christian perspective still do share something of a common essence with one another. This is what makes human communion, and therefore community, possible in the first place. It is also how we all came to lose Sanctifying Grace through activity of single person and how we were restored to it through the actions of another single person.
Initially upon my investigation in Catholicism, coming from a Baha'i perspective, I thought the Trinity was sheer irrationality, and I would never be able to accept it. In fact I use to argue, erroneously, it was a later invention of Christianity. Once however I came to actually understand, in the partial way we are limited to understanding it, I saw that it must always be the logical consequence of a God in whose image we are made. I reiterate the simplest formula below:
God the source and ground of all Being exists, non-contingently, in absolute simplicity, as pure act. The ground of everything is self aware, and this self awareness of God, is itself, a person. This is not very different than the narratives of ourselves that constitute the sum total of our own egos. Essentially our egotistic conception of ourselves is a story that defines who we believe we are. In God's case this Story, is a person who is a perfect, infinite fidelity of Himself, and so God comes to a perfect knowledge of His own infinite self nature through this Second Person, aka the only Begotten Son, aka the Word of God. If there is a self aware God then a Son is begotten of logical necessity and has always existed along with the Father who has begotten Him. Additionally, as soon as the Son gazes back upon the Father, encountering His own ontological reality, Truth and Love are born and are themselves personified this is a Third Person, the Holy Ghost, and since all three persons are of the one essence they are one and the same with each other. Consequently whatever the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son must must be as well. Quite frankly once this is truly grasped it becomes apparent that a God, in whose image we are made, who is not Triune is simply not logically feasible.
The three Persons of the Trinity live in total self sacrifice (love) to one another. Jesus who incarnated into the flesh (here He has become a single person with two essences--in fact I will assert that if you deny the reality of the Trinity you would then have to deny that Jesus had two natures. If this was the case than our human nature hasn't really ascended into heaven and it is not at all clear then what it would then mean to be saved. Certainly such denials have always been denounced as heresy by the Church) and is also known and the Eternal Covenant made flesh has taught us the depths of what such self giving means as he gave himself for us as St.Paul says while we were still in our sins.
The French post-structuralist Jacques Derrida wrote much in life about the impossibility of the pure gift. For humans it is impossible--at least without the grace received by saints--for us to give without some notion of economy, e.g. some notion of tit for tat, but Jesus gave himself in full acceptance of our ingratitude. In fact this is what marks the Trinity who has no need of anything outside of Itself, yet out of love and desire to share Itself created all creation. Here is where of the notion of the Covenant comes into play. A covenant is as different from a contract as marriage is from prostitution. A contract is an agreement between person for the exchange of objects or services. A convent invokes God, assuming he is real (this is a big deal because if God really exists than Covenants have real authority), and is an exchange of persons. Covenants create family bonds. God who is family, in and of Himself, wants nothing more than to make us family too. The Trinity is everywhere the Old and New Covenants (translated into Latin as Testament) of Sacred Scripture. Properly understood the very fact we divide salvation history in Old and New "Testaments", itself is logical implication of the Trinity.
Why don't people better understand this? I don't know, but it is not the only thing people fail to realize about Christianity. Since my conversion I've started to call it the greatest open secret on the planet. The Apostles who comprised the Church from the beginning took pains to teach our faith in creeds. Yet very little of what the Church has consistently and continuously held as dogma, in this manner since the beginning, is realized by even the majority of professing Catholics. The Church certainly isn't attempting to hide any of it. In fact just the opposite. However, there certainly is an overwhelming large noise to signal ratio, as practically everything outside of the Church seemingly seeks to condemn and malign it. We are barraged continuously through the mass media with negative myths about Catholicism that undoubtedly has predisposed the world, generally speaking, to a equally negative bias on a deeply unconscious level. It is as if some force in the world wants to so muddy the water that even people who sincerely search for it have difficulty seeing the bottom.
Finally I would assert that whether this is strictly true or not--although if it is not strictly true than the whole concept of strict truth must be abandoned--it deserves the respect of any cultured and intelligent person. In fact if it is not true. and therefore not really a revealed knowledge then it paradoxically becomes even more worthy of respect from a materialist perspective. Since it then world be a work of sheer human genius.
That is the irony here: There is no case that can be made for holding such ideas in contempt, except perhaps if the contemptuous persons secretly fears it is true. he contempt just doesn't make any sense if one truly believed that this was only a human artifact.
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The human family, of course.
No they haven't.
Your rampant, overblown bias is showing.