Why is the concept of the trinity so poorly understood (or often straw manned)?

[Nakosis]

Probably because the trinity was adopted from earlier religious beliefs. Romans had some vague idea of how the trinity worked in other cultures.

Like the western adoption of Buddhism, some concepts don't translate well.

These were not the only trinities early Christians were exposed to. The historical lecturer, Jesse Benedict Carter, tells us of the Etruscans. As they slowly passed from Babylon through Greece and went on to Rome (16-19), they brought with them their trinity of Tinia, Uni, and Menerva. This trinity was a ‘new idea to the Romans,’ and yet it became so ‘typical of Rome’ that it quickly spread throughout Italy (26). Even the names of the Roman trinity: Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva, reflect the ancestry. That Christianity was not ashamed to borrow from pagan culture is amply shown by Durant: ‘Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it’

The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine

 

[Nada]

Because of false teachings that have nothing to actually do with the holy scriptures.People get lost.

 

[Ultimatum]

How does this verse show God is not the Holy Spirit?

The physical person of Jesus Christ was not at the start of Creation. There is no Scriptural proof of this. Any suggestion otherwise it pure speculation and doesn't deserve to stand alone as a factual statement.
Using this principle, one can determine that there was something else with God at the start of Creation--as evidenced by the verse that I supplied. As far as can be determined without unsupported speculation, the Holy Spirit can be the only other thing with God as stated by "us".
The pronoun "us" definitely implies more than one object. Therefore, there were to objects at the start of the Creation story that were separate.

The Son and the Father are distinct, this is true. This only poses a problem for the modalist viewpoint that would say the Father and the Son are just different forms or modes of God. The Trinitarian view is that the Father and Son are distinct Persons, and the Father is the source of the Trinity, begetting the Son and spirating the Holy Spirit. Therefore the Son did come from the Father, and does return to the Father, being the source of the Trinity.

There is no such thing as "The Trinity". It is not clearly supported Biblically and is a conceptual supposition proposed by the Church.

Jesus says in John 8:58 that "before Abraham was, I AM", invoking the name of God.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

This does not mean anything. Jesus didn't even answer the question directly. "I am" may or may not refer to Jesus here. Most likely, due to the nature of many scriptures that uphold this, this refers to God. As in:

"Before Abraham was God."

Jesus is the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

This is a controversial verse of the Bible. The translation of this verse from the Koine Greek is still a massive debate amongst scholars. It is grossly oversimplified and, until we know the facts, it is mere speculation.
Translation from the Greek:
In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (toward) the God, and God was the Word.
No mention of Jesus; most likely "the Word" refers to the "us" in the verse that I used in my first post here. Probably the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is not saying that He isn't good, but simply the true statement that only God is good. This verse is actually used as a proof of Jesus' divinity, used in conjunction with John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."

"only God is good" refers to absolute goodness.
"I am the good shepherd" is merely a non-absolute adjective: as is saying "That chocolate cake is good"

No, the Trinitarian perspective is the only one that actually makes sense of all the verses. Your verses have broken down modalism, not Trinitarianism, which brings together both those verses that show the Son's distinction from the Father, and those that show the Father and the Son are one.

There is no "The Trinity".

 

[Nietzsche]

I've always seen it as being no different than any person is always more than just "one" person. You're a different person to your boss, to your mother, to your brother. They're all facets of your personality. They aren't exactly separate people but they aren't all the same thing either. They're important parts of what make up "you". I do not see why this wouldn't apply to a God or Gods.

 

[Etritonakin]

The argument of Christianity being pagan based on having the 3 deities that are the Trinity is just ridiculous. 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 isn't that hard to understand, especially when you understand the solar aspects of the symbolism. My question is are these people just anti-religious fundies practicing willful ignorance, is it a straw man, or is there something legitimately hard to understand?

The pagan connection (that would make a great movie title) has less to do with the 1/3 idea -and more to do with the other practices of what is seen as the source of that idea.

John 1 actually describes two beings as having existed together from the beginning -God (the Father) -and God (the Word). The Word eventually became flesh as Christ.

It also states that it was the Word who eventually became Christ actually did the creating of all things.

The opposition to the trinity idea is not the number of beings in itself, but that the bible actually does not say that the spirit of God -also called the Holy Spirit -is a third separate being.
For example -though things are done BY the spirit -creation by fiat, imparting of knowledge/talents/gifts, and even the expression of words -never is the spirit itself spoken TO as if it were an individual -because it is not.

We know that the Father and the Word -though "one" -are individuals because the Father can know things the Word can not -such as the day or hour of Christ's return, and the Son/Christ/the Word addresses the Father and speaks to him, etc.

Actually, some who believe in the trinity don't see the Holy spirit as a separate deity -but that may not be an "official" stance or teaching.

As John 1 states that the Word did the actual creating -we can read Genesis with this in mind......

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

It may seem from this that the "Spirit of God" is an individual -especially as the translation capitalizes "Spirit" as if it is a name, but it actually describes HOW God (specifically, the Word) does the creating -by moving HIS SPIRIT upon the face of the waters, etc....

Then... notice the next instance where the spirit of God is mentioned in book/chapter/verse order of the bible.....

Gen 41:15 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I have dreamed a dream, and there is none that can interpret it: and I have heard say of thee, that thou canst understand a dream to interpret it.
Gen 41:16 And Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, It is not in me: God shall give Pharaoh an answer of peace.

Gen 41:25 And Joseph said unto Pharaoh, The dream of Pharaoh is one: God hath shewed Pharaoh what he is about to do.

Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

There, God is giving dreams to pharaoh and the interpretation through Joseph BY HIS SPIRIT.

Then... the next instance.... God gives specific talents by his spirit....
Exo 31:2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
Exo 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Exo 31:4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Exo 31:5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship

There are verses in the new testament which also seem to personify the spirit of God by translation -but notice.... the words which seem to personify the "Comforter" (also Capitalized only in translation) -actually refer to God, the Father -and the "he" in 14:16 isn't even a separate word which is translated. It goes straight from "that" to "abide" in the Greek.
Then -notice how Christ will not leave them comfortless..... he said I WILL COME TO YOU. How? By the spirit of God.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

again -the following seems to personify the spirit of God..... though the word "him" (G846) is just as correctly translated "it" -and should be in this case...

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

So -we know that the spirit of God is the comforter -so how is the spirit of God defined in the bible?
2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

So -the "trinity", as such, is a false teaching -but other teachings and practices are linked to pagan teachings and practices.

The holy days of God are biblical -but the changing of the Sabbath commandment to the observance of Sunday is rooted in paganism -though Sundays is called "the Lord's Day" due to the errant teaching that Christ rose on a Sunday.

"Easter" (Ishtar/Astarte) is the name of the chief goddess of the Babylonian Mystery Religion -and "Easter" is substituted for "passover" in some bible translations.
The bunnies, eggs, etc., associated with Easter are taken from fertility rites/sun worship.

Christmas is basically the Saturnalia with Christ's name attached -and involves practices which predate Christ -some of which were specifically spoken against even in the bible (though some deny they are related)...
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Jer 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go.

 

[Etritonakin]

The physical person of Jesus Christ was not at the start of Creation. There is no Scriptural proof of this. Any suggestion otherwise it pure speculation and doesn't deserve to stand alone as a factual statement.
.

While the physical HUMAN BODY of Jesus was not at the start of the creation -but scripture explains that the being which eventually became flesh as Christ existed with God (the Father), and also did the actual creating of things.....

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

You would really have to work to twist the scriptures to claim otherwise.....

 

[muhammad_isa]

We know that the Father and the Word -though "one" -are individuals because the Father can know things the Word can not -such as the day or hour of Christ's return, and the Son/Christ/the Word addresses the Father and speaks to him, etc.

Contradictory! He can't be one and "not one". Almighty God is a simple concept. He is God, the ONE and only .. He is the Creator and Maintainer of the universe!
Almighty God does not make things complicated or mysterious, or illogical .. that would be mankind..

You can whittle on about trinities and parts being equal while not being parts etc. .. it's futile .. it's a myth derived from Roman/Greek culture. It has nothing to do with Jesus, peace be with him

 

[Etritonakin]

No. It is not contradictory. It is a matter of imperfect human language.

I understand that you may not believe the same things as I do -but in order to explain......

There is one (the number one) God. He is called the Father.
He is in authority over all.
He is even in authority over Christ.
Christ obeys God.
Christ prayed to God and said that God's will should be done rather than Christ's will.

Christ was not always human as Christ.
Before he was human, he was called "the Word".
He was also called "Melchizedek" of the Old Testament who is described in the New Testament this way...
"Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life".

While it is written that he has always existed with God, the Father, from the beginning,
God has always been in authority -and the Word has always obeyed God.

When Christ is quoted as saying "I and my Father are one", "one" is not actually a number.
It means that they are always in agreement -just as I can be "one" with another human in purpose or agreement. It means that they are of one accord.

Where it says "the Word was with God, and the Word was God"
It means that they have always existed together and have always been in agreement.

There is still one God -the Father -but the Word has always existed with him and they have always been in agreement.
By the obedience to God of the one called the Word, God dwells in him and works through him -so he -in that sense -"is" God.

Christ instructed people to pray to God -the Father -not to himself.
We are to pray to the Father -God -in the name of the Son (Christ).

Again, language can be confusing -even though Christ is called the Son -it is by analogy. It is not as if God literally had a wife and then had a child.

So -even though the Word "was God", he himself did not claim to be equal with the Father.

Christ also said that those who saw him saw the Father -but, again, it is not literal -it is because he does nothing which is not of the Father.

It is not literal -because Christ also said that no one had ever seen the Father. That he meant literally.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

The argument of Christianity being pagan based on having the 3 deities that are the Trinity is just ridiculous. 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 isn't that hard to understand, especially when you understand the solar aspects of the symbolism. My question is are these people just anti-religious fundies practicing willful ignorance, is it a straw man, or is there something legitimately hard to understand?

Or 1+1+1= 3 lol

Besides Jesus said God is greater than himself.
Also the holy spirit is neglected and ignored by Christians.
I have never seen or heard christian praying to Holy spirit by mentioning the name.

 

[outhouse]

My question is are these people just anti-religious fundies practicing willful ignorance

Generally they are reality based or if you will reason and logic.

Your proposing everyone should see religious doctrine created by man, your way. Even the early church debated this for hundreds of years.

Opposition to something that doesn't really make sense unless you have faith, is very understandable.

Your trying to convince me, a deity exist as 1/3, and that in itself doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Ouroboros]

Or 1+1+1= 3 lol

1 is a number. 3 is a number.

So basically, this holds true: 1 number + 1 number + 1 number = 1 number (which happens to be 3).

Just sayin'.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

1 is a number. 3 is a number.

So basically, this holds true: 1 number + 1 number + 1 number = 1 number (which happens to be 3).

Just sayin'.

My calculator shows different result

Anyways if they are equal and one, then its strange why Jesus pbuh said God is greater than him and why holyspirit is ignored by christians.

 

[Ouroboros]

My calculator shows different result

You have a "number" on your calculator? That's cool.

Actually, we can also do this:

0+0+0=0. Hehe.

Anyways if they are equal and one, then its strange why Jesus pbuh said God is greater than him and why holyspirit is ignored by christians.

First, I think he didn't say that God is greater than him, but that the Father is greater than him. In the trinity, the Father is supposed to be the boss. That's probably what he meant (if we suppose Jesus existed at all). Also, the term "greater" can mean many different things, but it is usually a word for comparisons. A tall building that is greater than a small building, well, they're both buildings, so only if Jesus was "God" could the Father God be greater, otherwise you can't really compare two equals (I know, it's a stretch, but anywho).

Secondly, Christians aren't ignoring the Holy Spirit. I was Christian for 30 years, and we prayed to God the Father, Jesus, and also the Holy Spirit. We even had sermons where our pastor taught only about the Holy Spirit (can't say I remember much though).

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

You have a "number" on your calculator? That's cool.

Actually, we can also do this:

0+0+0=0. Hehe.


First, I think he didn't say that God is greater than him, but that the Father is greater than him. In the trinity, the Father is supposed to be the boss. That's probably what he meant (if we suppose Jesus existed at all). Also, the term "greater" can mean many different things, but it is usually a word for comparisons. A tall building that is greater than a small building, well, they're both buildings, so only if Jesus was "God" could the Father God be greater, otherwise you can't really compare two equals (I know, it's a stretch, but anywho).

Secondly, Christians aren't ignoring the Holy Spirit. I was Christian for 30 years, and we prayed to God the Father, Jesus, and also the Holy Spirit. We even had sermons where our pastor taught only about the Holy Spirit (can't say I remember much though).

Lol

Why should The Father be the boss if all three are God and equally One?
So a god has God above him Yet they are One and Equal?

U are not helpful to the Trinity Camp i just got more confused now

 

[Ouroboros]

Lol

Why should The Father be the boss if all three are God and equally One?

It's like a marriage. The wife is the boss, then the kids, then poor me.

So a god has God above him Yet they are One and Equal?

They're all gods, but one makes the decisions in the case of hanged votes. It's the quorum thing. You need an odd number or something with the swing vote.

U are not helpful to the Trinity Camp i just got more confused now

It's supposed to be confusing. It's not meant to make sense. If it makes sense, then it's not working. Hehe.

The Catholic Encyclopedia says this:

The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Constitution, "De fide. cath.", iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

dont tell me u left christianity because of trinity loll


This confusion somehow reminds me of Lost ending haha. Dont know why iam bringing that up.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

My question is are these people just anti-religious fundies practicing willful ignorance, is it a straw man, or is there something legitimately hard to understand?

Anti-religious fundies? Wow. Interesting take.
So every Muslim in the world is an anti-religious fundie? JW's? If you're less interested in modern takes, what about the discussions of the Council of Niceae? Chalcedon?
Byzantine history is littered with conflict and disagreement over the trinity, and you certainly couldn't describe them as anti-religious fundies. The doctrine you appear to be subscribing to is the doctrine of the winners. Even assuming it's 100% correct, let's not pretend it's never been controversial, even amongst good, honest Christian-folk.

 

[gsa]

It is poorly understood because it was poorly conceived (or "discerned" as Trinitarians prefer). Christians fight about the Trinity amongst themselves; just look at this thread to see how easily it is to be perplexed by this magical thinking.

 

[Ouroboros]

dont tell me u left christianity because of trinity loll

Oh no. Definitely not. It wasn't really a big concern for me, simply because I learned years ago that it was supposed to be a mystery. I had more a problem with it when I became an atheist and wanted to argue rational arguments about God with Christians. You can't use rationality for these things. Belief is belief, and should stay that way.

Actually, there's a way to look at the trinity. Father is time. Holy Spirit is energy. Jesus is matter. Together they make the universe. (nah, it's not a good analogy, but I was just thinking loud.)

This confusion somehow reminds me of Lost ending haha. Dont know why iam bringing that up.

Dang. I still haven't finished that show. We started watching it, but my wife didn't like it.

 

[gsa]

Dang. I still haven't finished that show. We started watching it, but my wife didn't like it.

If you think the Trinity is irrational, poorly conceived and has a nonsensical ending, skip Lost.