Why is the concept of the trinity so poorly understood (or often straw manned)?

[Ouroboros]

If you think the Trinity is irrational, poorly conceived and has a nonsensical ending, skip Lost.

I don't think the Trinity is irrational or poorly conceived. Someone else said those things. Well, I do agree it's irrational, simply because it's supposed to be! It's not meant to be rational (as per quote from Catholic Encyclopedia). It's meant to be a mystery and something people can meditate upon and go crazy (on their own dime and time).

Anyway... I will get to Lost one day, without getting lost... I hope.

 

[Sleeppy]

Look at all those reasons above.. Then add to that, some just don't aim to understand it.

 

[Glaurung]

I guess the Jews felt the same way about Jesus and his disciples. A first century heretical sect...except that there is no such word as heresy in the Bible.

The Bible clearly warns against false teachings, which is the same thing as saying watch out for heresy.

The Bible teaches that Christ established the Church and that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it. It goes beyond credulity that what Jesus actually meant was that he would allow the Church to disappear for just under two millennia only to inspire some Americans in the 19th century to re-establish it.

If people had stuck to the popular view of what was acceptable truth to a Jew, no one would have followed Christ....would they?

Give it a break, in regards to your own sect, you're as 'orthodox' as I.

The difference is that your orthodoxy is at clear odds with the attested faith of the Church as it had been establish by Christ, his apostles, and their successors down to the present day. But of course, the Church Fathers all apostates how convenient.

The parable of the wheat and the weeds is telling us that the devil is responsible for sowing seeds of false Christianity in the same field as the sower of the fine seed. (Matt 13:24-30, 36-40)

Christ promised that legitimate apostolic succession would never fall. That the Church would retain her legitimacy 'till the very end. Of course, not everyone who enters the Church will persevere in the faith. Christ by no means promised that. And no one has ever claimed that he did.

The apostate one? YES!!! Thank God

We believe in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The JWs have none of these marks and is therefore not even a church.

Like I said, can you name me any similarities between first century apostolic Christians and the fourth century Catholic Church instituted by a pagan (sun worshipping) Roman Emperor? I see none.

Ah, Nicea conspiracies. That council simply established in official creed what had always been believed and taught. It was in response to a similar heresy you maintain. The denial of who Christ really is.

 

[JayJayDee]

The Bible clearly warns against false teachings, which is the same thing as saying watch out for heresy.

And it never occurs to Catholic people that the greatest heresy is the teachings of the Catholic Church? Look at history and see what others see. How can Christ's church ever be guilty of such horrendous conduct?

The Bible teaches that Christ established the Church and that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it.

What do you understand "the gates of hell" to mean?

It goes beyond credulity that what Jesus actually meant was that he would allow the Church to disappear for just under two millennia only to inspire some Americans in the 19th century to re-establish it.

There is a pictorial example in the Bible. When God's people fell away to false worship, he allowed them to be taken captive to Babylon. They stayed captive in that virtual prison until God prophesied their release.....but only a remnant returned.

There is a greater Babylon that the apostle John speaks about......
Revelation 18:4-5..."And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and the Lord hath remembered her iniquities."

God's "people" are told to come out of this spiritually immoral 'city' whose sins have reached up to heaven! Again, only a remnant were going to obey. (Isa 10:29; Rom 9:27; 11:5) How did God's people come to be "in" this. Greater Babylon to begin with? For unfaithfulness, God again allowed them to be taken captive.

Give it a break, in regards to your own sect, you're as 'orthodox' as I.

The difference is that your orthodoxy is at clear odds with the attested faith of the Church as it had been establish by Christ, his apostles, and their successors down to the present day. But of course, the Church Fathers all apostates how convenient.

There is nothing "orthodox" about Jehovah's Witnesses....of that we are very proud. We have gone back to the beginning and removed all the pagan additions that the Catholic Church introduced centuries ago.

There is no similarity between the religious beliefs and practices of Roman Catholicism and first century Christianity at all...they in fact, are poles apart.

Christ promised that legitimate apostolic succession would never fall. That the Church would retain her legitimacy 'till the very end. Of course, not everyone who enters the Church will persevere in the faith. Christ by no means promised that. And no one has ever claimed that he did.

What Jesus promised was that the weeds of false Christianity would never supplant the wheat entirely.
At the time of the harvest, a separation was to take place. The wheat and the weeds would be clearly distinguishable and the angels would come and collect the weeds and dispose of them. The weeds correspond to the goats of Jesus' other parable.

We believe in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The JWs have none of these marks and is therefore not even a church.

And I am again very thankful for that. Any similarity in belief and practice would make us part of Babylon the great. We have obeyed God's command and separated from that apostate religious system. It is God who will bring her down. (Rev 18:8, 20-24)

Ah, Nicea conspiracies. That council simply established in official creed what had always been believed and taught. It was in response to a similar heresy you maintain. The denial of who Christ really is.

Well, the denial of who Christ really is, was made a very long time ago. Long before God's modern day Witnesses were raised up.

Daniel foretold a 'cleansing, whitening and refining' for God's people "in the final part of the days". (Dan 12:9, 10) We believe that we are in "the final part of the days" and that the ones who accepted that cleansing are our teachers. You don't have to accept that...but we do.

In Catholicism, the "son of God" was transformed into God himself....not in Jesus' time and not in the time of the apostles, but over 300 years after they were gone.
Arius recognised the error of the trinity, but he was still a little off track.
His teaching, which gained wide popularity, roused fierce opposition within the church. In 325 C.E., at the Council of Nicea, Arius was exiled and his teachings were condemned.

JW's are not Arians but we do reject the trinity on purely scriptural grounds. We reject immortality of the soul and a hell of eternal torment as well.
We do not support this world by spilling blood in its wars and political conflicts, (Isa2:2-4) and we do not celebrate pagan festivals under the thin veneer of a Christian label.

Could you tell me in what way the teachings and practices of the Catholic Church resembles the Christianity taught by Jesus and his apostles?
Please list the similarities you see.

 

[LuisDantas]

To the best of my understanding, mistrust of the concept of Trinity is simple abuse of literalism motivated by a desire to establish the superiority of some familiar doctrine over competing ones.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Or 1+1+1= 3 lol

Besides Jesus said God is greater than himself.
Also the holy spirit is neglected and ignored by Christians.
I have never seen or heard christian praying to Holy spirit by mentioning the name.

You've never met a Pentecostal then I gather...

On a more serious note, the Holy Spirit is very important, it is the Holy Spirit that indwells us and sanctifies us, and regenerates our hearts upon salvation in the first place. We ask the Holy Spirit for guidance in our lives and when reading the Scriptures.

 

[Glaurung]

And it never occurs to Catholic people that the greatest heresy is the teachings of the Catholic Church? Look at history and see what others see. How can Christ's church ever be guilty of such horrendous conduct?

No matter how often your assert the heresy and evil of the Roman Church, it doesn't make it true. History is far more complex than your bigoted narrative suggests. That's not to say that there haven't been people in the Church who have done horrible things, there sure has, yet she is still here and will always be so.

What do you honestly think you're going to accomplish here?

What do you understand "the gates of hell" to mean?

Those who want the destruction of the Church. Her enemies.

There is a pictorial example in the Bible. When God's people fell away to false worship, he allowed them to be taken captive to Babylon. They stayed captive in that virtual prison until God prophesied their release.....but only a remnant returned.

There is a greater Babylon that the apostle John speaks about......
Revelation 18:4-5..."And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and the Lord hath remembered her iniquities."

God's "people" are told to come out of this spiritually immoral 'city' whose sins have reached up to heaven! Again, only a remnant were going to obey. (Isa 10:29; Rom 9:27; 11:5) How did God's people come to be "in" this. Greater Babylon to begin with? For unfaithfulness, God again allowed them to be taken captive.

Of course, the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon.

It's not like anyone else besides JWs has ever made such silly claims....

And I am again very thankful for that. Any similarity in belief and practice would make us part of Babylon the great. We have obeyed God's command and separated from that apostate religious system. It is God who will bring her down. (Rev 18:8, 20-24)

You like to throw around the word apostate a lot, like the more you state it the more true it might become!

If you truly and sincerely believe in the nonsense you throw about then I won't actually hold it against you. I can actually in a strange way respect you for even if your beliefs are horribly misguided.

What Jesus promised was that the weeds of false Christianity would never supplant the weeds entirely.

False Christianity being anything outside your recent, largely American sect. Gotcha.

JW's are not Arians but we do reject the trinity on purely scriptural grounds. We reject immortality of the soul and a hell of eternal torment as well.
We do not support this world by spilling blood in its wars and political conflicts, (Isa2:2-4) and we do not celebrate pagan festivals under the thin veneer of a Christian label.

I didn't call you Arian, rather, I said you are of a similar lineage.

I know what you believe, and it's opposed to the authentic Christian faith.

 

[Ultimatum]

While the physical HUMAN BODY of Jesus was not at the start of the creation -but scripture explains that the being which eventually became flesh as Christ existed with God (the Father), and also did the actual creating of things.....

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

You would really have to work to twist the scriptures to claim otherwise.....

Ok, so you have assumed that Jesus Christ is "the Word" talked about in John. Even though Hebrew scholars and linguist are still debating the issue.
That's fine--that's your interpretation.

But what about the other verses I provided?

 

[JayJayDee]

No matter how often your assert the heresy and evil of the Roman Church, it doesn't make it true.

No matter what you say about Jehovah's Witnesses ....doesn't make it true either. We each have an opinion of the other's beliefs and practices, so time will tell, won't it?

History is far more complex than your bigoted narrative suggests. That's not to say that there haven't been people in the Church who have done horrible things, there sure has, yet she is still here and will always be so.

Since Jesus said the weeds were going to be growing along with the wheat right up until the harvest time...what does that prove? If Babylon the great was not still in existence when the judgment comes, what is the point of Revelation foretelling her demise?

What do you honestly think you're going to accomplish here?

An injection of truth. A different perspective. A fresh approach to the Bible's teachings as opposed to church doctrine and tradition.

Those who want the destruction of the Church. Her enemies.

Actually "hell" (Heb. Sheol, Greek hades) in the Bible is the grave. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
When it says "the gates of hell" will not overpower the church, this is a simple statement meaning that death cannot interfere with God's purpose. "The gates of hell" are opened by the resurrection, which will see all of God's faithful anointed ones raised to their heavenly positions as "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) Their subjects will be on earth, which will be cleansed of all wickedness. This is what the Bible teaches.

Of course, the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon.

Catholicism is only one part of Babylon the great. Original Babylon was the launching pad for all forms of false worship and practices. When God confused the language at the Tower of Babel, all those false beliefs spread all over the world. Babylon the great is identified by her teachings and beliefs that originated in that ancient city. The same core of false teachings run through all of them.....belief in a multiplicity or trinity of gods...belief in an immortal soul that departs the body at death....heavenly bliss for the good and a hell of fiery torment for the wicked. Both Christian and non Christian religions subscribe to this core of beliefs, in one form or another. They simply call their gods by different names and Christendom pretends that her version of these teachings are Christian. You can't find them in the Bible though.

You like to throw around the word apostate a lot, like the more you state it the more true it might become!

My studies have revealed that apostasy is exactly what Jesus and his apostles foretold and that is what took place. It wasn't instigated recently.
This apostasy is almost as old as Christianity itself.

If you truly and sincerely believe in the nonsense you throw about then I won't actually hold it against you. I can actually in a strange way respect you for even if your beliefs are horribly misguided.

We both believe that the other is horribly misguided. I honestly believe that your church's teachings do not hold up under scrutiny. I have examined them in the light of scripture and they are missing from the word of God.

There was no earthly priesthood officiating in any church in the first century. The apostle John said that their priesthood was not earthly and it was yet future when he wrote the Revelation. (Rev 20:6)
There was no clergy class with distinctive clothing.....No liturgy or repetitive ritualistic worship and no repetition of empty words. ("Hail Mary" and the like) There were no rosary beads or idols paraded through the streets....No fancy titles or a Pope referred to as "the Pontiff" as head of the church. No special attention given to Jesus' mother. No Sunday Sabbath. No monstrance. No incense. No praying before idols. No celibate priests who are forbidden to marry.

False Christianity being anything outside your recent, largely American sect. Gotcha.

Would you call Judaism a middle eastern sect? Since Christianity began in the same area, would you say it is a middle eastern sect as well?

The US is a very influential nation, so what better choice than to have the good news spread all over the world from there in these last days? We are a global brotherhood actively preaching in just about every nation on earth. Our literature is printed in almost all languages and dialects. We are hardly an American sect. We have one teaching and one message that we preach "in all the inhabited earth" (Matt 24:14) Every member is an evangelizer.

I know what you believe, and it's opposed to the authentic Christian faith.

No, actually, we are opposed to Christendom's teachings which we do not accept as the "authentic Christian faith" any more than the first Christians accepted what the Jewish religion had become in the days of the apostles. Being around a long time didn't mean much for the Jews either.

Those raised with the teachings of Christendom's many sects have never been taught to question their beliefs.

I believe that we should all evaluate our beliefs from the Bible and not from just the teachings of the church. If we are going to make a choice about religion...it should at least be an informed one.

 

[sojourner]

My calculator shows different result

Anyways if they are equal and one, then its strange why Jesus pbuh said God is greater than him and why holyspirit is ignored by christians.

"Ignored?" Srrsly? Jesus (being fully human) said that the Father is greater than he. Remember: Jesus is fully human, as well as being fully God.

 

[sojourner]

A fresh approach to the Bible's teachings as opposed to church doctrine and tradition.

What makes you think that we're in need of such?

 

[sojourner]

The US is a very influential nation, so what better choice than to have the good news spread all over the world from there in these last days?

Then why is Xy dying in the US, and on the rise in Africa in these "last days?"

 

[sojourner]

Those raised with the teachings of Christendom's many sects have never been taught to question their beliefs.

Yes. They have.

 

[Etritonakin]

Ok, so you have assumed that Jesus Christ is "the Word" talked about in John. Even though Hebrew scholars and linguist are still debating the issue.
That's fine--that's your interpretation.

But what about the other verses I provided?

I did not assume that. Many scriptures clearly state that. If you do not read what is clearly written, that will also likely apply to the other verses.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There is one (the number one) God. He is called the Father.
He is in authority over all.
He is even in authority over Christ.
Christ obeys God.
Christ prayed to God and said that God's will should be done rather than Christ's will.

No problem so far .. "the Father" is Almighty God.

Christ was not always human as Christ.
Before he was human, he was called "the Word".
He was also called "Melchizedek" of the Old Testament who is described in the New Testament this way...
"Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life".

While it is written that he has always existed with God, the Father, from the beginning,
God has always been in authority -and the Word has always obeyed God.

..starting to get a bit 'bogged down' .. but the same applies to all humans .. we ALL 'existed with God' ..

So .. according to you, Jesus, peace be with him, is subservient to the Father and is not God or 'a child of God' ?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Remember: Jesus is fully human, as well as being fully God.

Impossible! Human beings are Amighty God's creation .. We have a logical "short-circuit"

 

[viole]

Then why is Xy dying in the US, and on the rise in Africa in these "last days?"

More difficult access to education, maybe?

Ciao

- viole

 

[sojourner]

Impossible! Human beings are Amighty God's creation .. We have a logical "short-circuit"

Why "impossible?" With God, aren't all things possible?

 

[viole]

Why "impossible?" With God, aren't all things possible?

Nope. He cannot create a married bachelor, for instance.

Ciao

- viole

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why "impossible?" With God, aren't all things possible?

Oh dear .. we are having a conversation. We understand each other through language.
What sort of debate could we have about Almighty God if we assign Almighty God illogical attributes? One could say that Almighty God was/is totally illogical or ridiculous in concept.

Why make the concept of God illogical, but in scientific experiment not acceptable?
Although we might not understand everything that Almighty God does, our understanding of God MUST be sane, for us to make any spiritual progress, imo.

How does one choose from 100's of different beliefs? Which one is most likely to be correct? The absurd? I don't think so! Almighty God guides whom He wills to truth..